Place ye not your trust in "experts"

[lowdrag]

This was referred to me the other day. How on earth could they advertise it so?

http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?...

[Elderly]

IIRC, last year the same auction house was selling an "ex-Tony Pond TR7 V8 "
which apparently had never ever been a works car at all!

Edited to add: http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/triumph-tr7-... - It didn't sell.

But it can work the other way too; the auctioneers mis-describing something that is valuable and rare so badly, that it slips through 'under the radar' at the auction.

Edited by Elderly on Sunday 16th January 14:27

[Huntsman]

lowdrag said:

This was referred to me the other day. How on earth could they advertise it so?

http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?...

I dont understand, clearly says its a Lynx?

[jagracer]

Huntsman said:

lowdrag said:

This was referred to me the other day. How on earth could they advertise it so?

http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?...

I dont understand, clearly says its a Lynx?

But the car is clearly an LR Roadsters or Ram Automotive car, I'd say it's a Ram looking at the pedal box. Looking at this there's hope for me, I think I'll ship mine over there next year.


Edit. Just noticed this

French people said:

It features a central aluminium self-supporting structure,

*cough* It's a space framed chassis (not even made that well) and GRP body or very possibly an ally one but I doubt it.

Edited by jagracer on Saturday 15th January 18:59

[tr7v8]

jagracer said:

Huntsman said:

lowdrag said:

This was referred to me the other day. How on earth could they advertise it so?

http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?...

I dont understand, clearly says its a Lynx?

But the car is clearly an LR Roadsters or Ram Automotive car, I'd say it's a Ram looking at the pedal box. Looking at this there's hope for me, I think I'll ship mine over there next year.


[b]Edit. Just noticed this

French people said:

It features a central aluminium self-supporting structure,

*cough* It's a space framed chassis (not even made that well) [/b] and GRP body or very possibly an ally one but I doubt it.

Edited by jagracer on Saturday 15th January 18:59

Err the aluminium self-supporting chassis looks like dodgy translation from french to me. The original French looks to say autoporteuse en aluminium which in my dodgy French is Freestanding AND aluminium. As for a dodgy spaceframe it looks OK to me bearing in mind the small amount you can see.

Edited by tr7v8 on Saturday 15th January 19:28

[jagracer]

tr7v8 said:

jagracer said:

Huntsman said:

lowdrag said:

This was referred to me the other day. How on earth could they advertise it so?

http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?...

I dont understand, clearly says its a Lynx?

But the car is clearly an LR Roadsters or Ram Automotive car, I'd say it's a Ram looking at the pedal box. Looking at this there's hope for me, I think I'll ship mine over there next year.


[b]Edit. Just noticed this

French people said:

It features a central aluminium self-supporting structure,

*cough* It's a space framed chassis (not even made that well) [/b] and GRP body or very possibly an ally one but I doubt it.

Edited by jagracer on Saturday 15th January 18:59

Err the aluminium self-supporting chassis looks like dodgy translation from french to me. The original French looks to say autoporteuse en aluminium which in my dodgy French is Freestanding AND aluminium. As for a dodgy spaceframe it looks OK to me bearing in mind the small amount you can see.

Edited by tr7v8 on Saturday 15th January 19:28

I didn't say the chassis is dodgy but which ever way you want to criticise my post this ad is a gross misrepresentation.

[tr7v8]

jagracer said:

tr7v8 said:

jagracer said:

Huntsman said:

lowdrag said:

This was referred to me the other day. How on earth could they advertise it so?

http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?...

I dont understand, clearly says its a Lynx?

But the car is clearly an LR Roadsters or Ram Automotive car, I'd say it's a Ram looking at the pedal box. Looking at this there's hope for me, I think I'll ship mine over there next year.


[b]Edit. Just noticed this

French people said:

It features a central aluminium self-supporting structure,

*cough* It's a space framed chassis (not even made that well) [/b] and GRP body or very possibly an ally one but I doubt it.

Edited by jagracer on Saturday 15th January 18:59

Err the aluminium self-supporting chassis looks like dodgy translation from french to me. The original French looks to say autoporteuse en aluminium which in my dodgy French is Freestanding AND aluminium. As for a dodgy spaceframe it looks OK to me bearing in mind the small amount you can see.

Edited by tr7v8 on Saturday 15th January 19:28

I didn't say the chassis is dodgy but which ever way you want to criticise my post this ad is a gross misrepresentation.

Err don't disagree with the gross misrepresentation bit & 5 seconds Googling shows it is NOT a Lynx but you said "It's a space framed chassis (not even made that well)" Which infers the chassis is what?

[lowdrag]

To clarify, this is a very early RAM D-type, so early in fact that they adapted their Cobra replica chassis to clothe it in a D-type shell. I telephoned Artcurial and was fobbed off by a woman, but on insisting was told she'd get someone to ring me back - which of course they didn't. So I wrote, sending photos of my D-types, pointing out that this car was registered 1/1/74 and that the first Lynx saw the light of day on 1/1/75 (one of mine was chassis #2 made in 1977) and that if they persisted I'd report them for fraud after the sale.

They have had the grace to reply now, saying they are asking the owner, but not taking action themselves. But like I say, they want to earn a handsome living, but haven't a clue what they are selling and care less. Money for old rope.

[jagracer]

tr7v8 said:

Err don't disagree with the gross misrepresentation bit & 5 seconds Googling shows it is NOT a Lynx but you said "It's a space framed chassis (not even made that well)" Which infers the chassis is what?

OK, they were welded up very well and they are incredibly strong. The not well made bit comes from the fact that the chassis' are not completely straight, the front X member is pissed making setting up very difficult. I had to move the lower wishbone mounts back 10mm on one side of mine. The suspension and steering geometry is not so good for the type of car it is. All this may be OK if you want to drive around posing but no good for racing.
The car that is for sale looks like a nice version of what it is but probably worth around less than half the guide price but then anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay.

Edited by jagracer on Thursday 24th February 21:20

[williamp]

Thanks for the clarification. Reading the ad, I still didnt get it!

Regarding auctionners, they can be very naughty. I sold my Aston through a well known one and it left a very bitter taste in my mouth.

Despite giving them lots of high-res images, they decided to use a low-res one in the brochure with no explanation

They fobbed me off with excuses before releasing the money to me- they needed the v5 to do so, depsite having the V5 (as they filled it in for the new owner).

The most annoying aspect is that some of my high-res images have subsequently been used to advertise another, simmilar car (different colour and spec) at a different auction. Very annoying, and I would never recommend them

[jagracer]

lowdrag said:

To clarify, this is a very early RAM D-type, so early in fact that they adapted their Cobra replica chassis to clothe it in a D-type shell.......pointing out that this car was registered 1/1/74 and that the first Lynx saw the light of day on 1/1/75 (one of mine was chassis #2 made in 1977) and that if they persisted I'd report them for fraud after the sale.

The fact it was registered in 74 doesn't necessarily make it a 74 car, mine is 1974 registered even though I didn't finish it until 1996 and it only took me two years to complete. Don't forget that before it was Ram the company was trading as LR Roadsters.
Looking at the pictures I's say this is a mid nineties car by Ram and looking at the fin it could well be an aluminium body but it will never be a Lynx or anywhere near it. I was going to send an email but you've saved me the trouble.

[SlipStream77]

How does registering a replica work?

[skeggysteve]

I've followed this thread since LD put it up.
I didn't understand what LD was on about but knew that at the price it wasn't a real one!
Thanks to all that have explained what is wrong etc.

But I have a question:

Why is the replica company allowed to put a chassis plate on like that?

[jagracer]

SlipStream77 said:

How does registering a replica work?

It depends whether you go about it the right way or not. From around 1996 replicas or kit cars or whatever you want to call them had to pass a VOSA SVA test (it's called something else now). Probably when this was put on the road it would have been like mine (I just scraped in) and need a certain amount of points with the DVLA to have the registration details changed. A lot of these cars drive round on the original registration and could be called anything from an XJ6 to a Ford Cortina. Mine ended up being called a Jaguar Ram Kit by the DVLA.

skeggysteve said:

I've followed this thread since LD put it up.
I didn't understand what LD was on about but knew that at the price it wasn't a real one!
Thanks to all that have explained what is wrong etc.

But I have a question:

Why is the replica company allowed to put a chassis plate on like that?

There are replicas and replicas, LD has a Lynx which probably cost around £100K+ in addition to the Etype donor car when driven out of the factory, now worth possibly more than double or tripple that. The Lynx is an exact copy whereas the one in the auction is nothing like an original apart from the silhouette of the body and one or two mechanical parts that have been copied. You do need to know a bit about D types to tell the difference, there's picture of one racing at Mallory last year that from first glances I thought was mine but even from a distance you can tell the difference when you have a proper look.
As for the VIN plate, it'll be registered as the donor car so nothing really wrong there for the age.

Edited by jagracer on Saturday 15th January 23:07

[skeggysteve]

jagracer said:

There are replicas and replicas, LD has a Lynx which probably cost around £100K+ in addition to the Etype donor car when driven out of the factory, now worth possibly more than double or tripple that. The Lynx is an exact copy whereas the one in the auction is nothing like an original apart from the silhouette of the body and one or two mechanical parts that have been copied. You do need to know a bit about D types to tell the difference, there's picture of one racing at Mallory last year that from first glances I thought was mine but even from a distance you can tell the difference when you have a proper look.

Jagracer, thanks for that - make sense now!

jagracer said:

As for the VIN plate, it'll be registered as the donor car so nothing really wrong there for the age.

Sorry but I don't agree it's not a VIN plate it's a chassis plate.
VIN plates are a new thing.
But that's not the point I was meaning.
The car LD was talking about has a supposidly Jaguar chassis plate, why are the replica buliders allowed to do this?

I have a little bit of experience of replica cars and would never have put a doggy chassis plate on any of them

[jagracer]

skeggysteve said:

Sorry but I don't agree it's not a VIN plate it's a chassis plate.
VIN plates are a new thing.

Is this what you mean by the chassis plate? http://www.artcurial.com/en/asp/fullcatalogue.asp?... VIN plate Chassis plate whatever, I call them VIN plates but I'm only a youngster. Low Drag will know better but I think original Jaguar ones were stamped from the rear so the digits are raised.

[lowdrag]

skeggysteve said:

jagracer said:

There are replicas and replicas, LD has a Lynx which probably cost around £100K+ in addition to the Etype donor car when driven out of the factory, now worth possibly more than double or tripple that. The Lynx is an exact copy whereas the one in the auction is nothing like an original apart from the silhouette of the body and one or two mechanical parts that have been copied. You do need to know a bit about D types to tell the difference, there's picture of one racing at Mallory last year that from first glances I thought was mine but even from a distance you can tell the difference when you have a proper look.

Jagracer, thanks for that - make sense now!

jagracer said:

As for the VIN plate, it'll be registered as the donor car so nothing really wrong there for the age.

Sorry but I don't agree it's not a VIN plate it's a chassis plate.
VIN plates are a new thing.
But that's not the point I was meaning.
The car LD was talking about has a supposidly Jaguar chassis plate, why are the replica buliders allowed to do this?

I have a little bit of experience of replica cars and would never have put a doggy chassis plate on any of them

This is going a bit off target, since the point was to discuss estate agents - sorry, car salesmen - and their dodgy ways.But let's put right a couple of the points above.

Firstly, my Lynx(es) are nothing more than an E-type under the skin - A-frame, picture frame, IRS, etc. They did build a couple of "real" D-types, but they are infinitely more expensive - a real copy today is around £3/400,000 to build. When new, in 1975, the Lynx kit cost around £25,000 but that was with 15" steel not 16" magnesium wheels - add another £12,000 today for these. I reckon, but am not sure, that my short nose cost around £60,000 when built in 1989. The value today? Frankly I care not but there are two on the market at £200,000 but at that price no takers of course - way over the top, but I guess around £140,000. They rarely come on the market so it is difficult to say.

Registering a replica; therre is the IVA (new SVA) route, and there the requirements cover 203 pages of VOSAspeak, covering such anachronisms as angle of incidence of lights etc. You then have a new car which is taxable and fully road legal as a new car.

However, if you check Ebay you'll find from time to time that an original Jaguar identity comes up for sale. The price of these has rocketed in the last few years, XK ones fetching, I have heard, up to £10,000 just for a bit of paper.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/COLLECTABLE-ENGLISH...

The point here is that you buy this piece of paper and build a car, retapping the engine number, gearbox number, and chassis number on your parts to correspond with the original identity. You then have a car that is tax exempt, emissions exempt, and "period". In building my C-type, do you think I wanted it to have a catalyst, fuel injection etc. because it might have had to if it went the IVA route and therefore would not have been a true copy. Luckily, I had a few old identities tucked away, but also the complete wreck of an XK to use as a base, so my car is a registered as a 1952 XK120 that became an XK120C. Many replicas are Mk VIIs or Mk 2s on their V5, so now you know why the replica in question is registered as an XJ. If you have a wreck of an original XJ, as many people such as Suffolk Cars buy, then the engine and many parts are from that original identity and it carries forward the same original registration and year.

All this is perfectly legal, since under UK law "modifications" to bodywork and engines etc. are permissable. If not, how would street rods etc. ever exist? Hope this answers your question.

Edited by lowdrag on Sunday 16th January 09:02

[mph]

williamp said:

Thanks for the clarification. Reading the ad, I still didnt get it!

Regarding auctionners, they can be very naughty. I sold my Aston through a well known one and it left a very bitter taste in my mouth.

Despite giving them lots of high-res images, they decided to use a low-res one in the brochure with no explanation

They fobbed me off with excuses before releasing the money to me- they needed the v5 to do so, depsite having the V5 (as they filled it in for the new owner).

The most annoying aspect is that some of my high-res images have subsequently been used to advertise another, simmilar car (different colour and spec) at a different auction. Very annoying, and I would never recommend them

Give us a clue - does their name begin with a C ?

[lowdrag]

Ah - the C auctioneers and showroom. Three times I've rung them about cars over the years, and every time I've been lied to, calls not returned, cars they've advertised which they didn't even have - I could write a book on it. Even went there one day to see a car advertised in one of the monthlies and it wasn't there. I knew full well the owner had retrieved it and sold it privately, but the salesman came out with such a load of rubbish I nearly vomited on their nice clean carpet. I would rate them as bad if not worse than the big BMW dealership that also deals or dealt in classics some years back. Went by the initials of FS in the Midlands I seem to remember. Sold me a car over the phone on a Sunday, went to pay for it on the Tuesday, was told it was now part of "their collection" and no longer for sale, and was reoffered it +£10K two weeks later. Wasn't the only time they turned me over either.

[jagracer]

lowdrag said:

This is going a bit off target, since the point was to discuss estate agents - sorry, car salesmen - and their dodgy ways.But let's put right a couple of the points above.

Firstly, my Lynx(es) are nothing more than an E-type under the skin - A-frame, picture frame, IRS, etc. They did build a couple of "real" D-types, but they are infinitely more expensive - a real copy today is around £3/400,000 to build. When new, in 1975, the Lynx kit cost around £25,000 but that was with 15" steel not 16" magnesium wheels - add another £12,000 today for these. I reckon, but am not sure, that my short nose cost around £60,000 when built in 1989. The value today? Frankly I care not but there are two on the market at £200,000 but at that price no takers of course - way over the top, but I guess around £140,000. They rarely come on the market so it is difficult to say.

Sorry, I must have been mistaking yours for one of the proper Lynx or Dunford Dtypes I saw.