Ex 'Works' Escort at Historics Brooklands
Discussion
LRdriver II said:
Was this the one that had been reshelled a million times and the reg had been used on all sorts of Fords?
Not same car and not worth the money it was up for. Provenance my ass..
95% of all the 'current' ex-works Escorts are not running their original shell anyway.... and most had at least one or more re-shells during their Boreham days anyway.Not same car and not worth the money it was up for. Provenance my ass..
The 'provenance' is the continuity of it's 'identity' in competition history through the years being the transfer of the chassis plate/reg number through all the reshells and now finally back to a recreation of it's early days.
And importantly, there's no attempt to deceive any potential buyer in this respect (unlike others I could mention) and is therefore no different to any number of 'other' historic competion cars that have been 'recreated'....sorry, 'restored'
over the years.aeropilot said:
LRdriver II said:
Was this the one that had been reshelled a million times and the reg had been used on all sorts of Fords?
Not same car and not worth the money it was up for. Provenance my ass..
95% of all the 'current' ex-works Escorts are not running their original shell anyway.... and most had at least one or more re-shells during their Boreham days anyway.Not same car and not worth the money it was up for. Provenance my ass..
The 'provenance' is the continuity of it's 'identity' in competition history through the years being the transfer of the chassis plate/reg number through all the reshells and now finally back to a recreation of it's early days.
And importantly, there's no attempt to deceive any potential buyer in this respect (unlike others I could mention) and is therefore no different to any number of 'other' historic competion cars that have been 'recreated'....sorry, 'restored'
over the years.Recreations, continuations, replicas are all just copies of an original car and as such no different if I applied a V5 I bought off ebay to what ever shed I had parked.
I think its cool the vendor has been open about it and a buyer can see if hey want to pay for a very nicely done Mk1 Escort.
LRdriver II said:
aeropilot said:
LRdriver II said:
Was this the one that had been reshelled a million times and the reg had been used on all sorts of Fords?
Not same car and not worth the money it was up for. Provenance my ass..
95% of all the 'current' ex-works Escorts are not running their original shell anyway.... and most had at least one or more re-shells during their Boreham days anyway.Not same car and not worth the money it was up for. Provenance my ass..
The 'provenance' is the continuity of it's 'identity' in competition history through the years being the transfer of the chassis plate/reg number through all the reshells and now finally back to a recreation of it's early days.
And importantly, there's no attempt to deceive any potential buyer in this respect (unlike others I could mention) and is therefore no different to any number of 'other' historic competion cars that have been 'recreated'....sorry, 'restored'
over the years.Recreations, continuations, replicas are all just copies of an original car and as such no different if I applied a V5 I bought off ebay to what ever shed I had parked.
I think its cool the vendor has been open about it and a buyer can see if hey want to pay for a very nicely done Mk1 Escort.
LRdriver II said:
I agree that almost all cars have been reshelled as it was done in the day, but when I read that this number plate had been sitting on allsorts of cars including sierras etc..
But that's the point, and the provenance 
It's got competition continuity. Shells get shagged quickly, and when you've run out of decent cost effective shells, you move on - hence being reshelled into MK2, MK3 rwd conversion, Sierra etc. It's a triggers broom process.
LRdriver II said:
and the last reshell was done a few years ago with a shell no different than what you and I can buy
I don't get the point your trying to make there....???LRdriver II said:
Recreations, continuations, replicas are all just copies of an original car and as such no different if I applied a V5 I bought off ebay to what ever shed I had parked.
And that's essentailly how a lot of todays 'ex-works' cars came into being again. And it's a bit more than riviting a chassis plate to some old shed These are 'new' cars built to the same standard as Boreham built them in most cases and the identity attached to an exact copy of what they were originally attached to. And yes, that ex-works identity will still command a premium over a non-descript one.
muppetboy said:
The fact that it's gone unsold again I think sums it up.
Reserve is too high probably, and seller is trying to screw out of it more than the market will support.... partly because it's a Twink, rather than an RS1600, which is less competitive than a BD in historic rallying....and there are currently non-works identity BDA powered similar spec cars going unsold for 50k.LordBretSinclair said:
aeropilot says "It's got competition continuity."
What's got continuity????????? A registration number and a chassis plate. Thats all. The car for sale has no continuity at all.
What's got continuity????????? A registration number and a chassis plate. Thats all. The car for sale has no continuity at all.
Clearly some people have no idea how much Ford (and other teams) swopped around identites and reg numbers at the time, let alone the re-shells and other parts swops that went on. Very few of these cars at the time ever had any continuity of parts in relation to the identity.
As far as I know, there is only 1 “works” escort that is completely original, that is VLE 756X in Beauliegh.
This car finished the 1981 RAC in 2nd place, got washed, a coat of underseal, a few little tough ups to the paint, and strait into the museum where it is run once a year.
However, that was a “Sutton” car, so technically not works, but never the less, completely original.
I also believe that FEV 1H the winning Mk 1 London Mexico Car is also original, albeit it has been re built and is immaculate now.
If there are any other original “works” Escorts, then I would be pleased to hear about them.
The point is though, as Aeropilot says, even in period, many had all the main components, including the body shell replaced, the Shell was just another disposable part, so whilst the only part on this Mk 1 for sale that is original, is the log book, it has the all important Reg no on it, which makes it more valuable to collectors/enthusiasts who either want to store the car or use it.
These cars, are now like pieces of art, an investment for the future, hence the high prices asked.
My old Escort, DKP 191T, another Sutton car, is a classis example, despite it now looking just like it did in 1981, there is no part original, again, only the log book that survives.
The fact it is being used, and used well, as it came 3rd on the recent Roger Albert Clark Rally is highly commendable, and IMO only adds to its value.
So long as no one tries to claim that one of these great cars is original when it is not, no harm done, and if some one wants to buy an Escort with “history” and providence for a 6 figure sum, then that’s fine as well, after all, no one has to, do they!
This car finished the 1981 RAC in 2nd place, got washed, a coat of underseal, a few little tough ups to the paint, and strait into the museum where it is run once a year.
However, that was a “Sutton” car, so technically not works, but never the less, completely original.
I also believe that FEV 1H the winning Mk 1 London Mexico Car is also original, albeit it has been re built and is immaculate now.
If there are any other original “works” Escorts, then I would be pleased to hear about them.
The point is though, as Aeropilot says, even in period, many had all the main components, including the body shell replaced, the Shell was just another disposable part, so whilst the only part on this Mk 1 for sale that is original, is the log book, it has the all important Reg no on it, which makes it more valuable to collectors/enthusiasts who either want to store the car or use it.
These cars, are now like pieces of art, an investment for the future, hence the high prices asked.
My old Escort, DKP 191T, another Sutton car, is a classis example, despite it now looking just like it did in 1981, there is no part original, again, only the log book that survives.
The fact it is being used, and used well, as it came 3rd on the recent Roger Albert Clark Rally is highly commendable, and IMO only adds to its value.
So long as no one tries to claim that one of these great cars is original when it is not, no harm done, and if some one wants to buy an Escort with “history” and providence for a 6 figure sum, then that’s fine as well, after all, no one has to, do they!
Mark A S said:
I also believe that FEV 1H the winning Mk 1 London Mexico Car is also original, albeit it has been re built and is immaculate now.
If there are any other original “works” Escorts, then I would be pleased to hear about them.
Correct about FEV 1H, it is largely original.If there are any other original “works” Escorts, then I would be pleased to hear about them.
When it first re-surfaced many years ago, REV 119K was I believe at the time mostly original.... it had only done 3 events as a 'works' car, and was the only other one.
But, I believe the current owner 'uses it' on historic events, so, 20+ years later, I can't vouch for how much is or isn't original today...?
Not sure about PVX 400K?
Of course, XOO 349F is original as well, but isn't strictly a works car, and isn't of course a rally car either being the ex-Alan Mann racer.
IIRC, yes the ex-Sutton VLE is the only 'original' Mk2 survivor, but as you say, it's a Sutton car, not a Boreham one.
muppetboy said:
But is it fair calling them 'EX WORKS' if basically none of it's parts are
It's the identity that's 'ex-works'. As with anything like this (not just old Escorts) it's the identity that continues.... no different to old racing cars or say old vintage aircraft, that have been resurected from a hole in the ground by attaching and original data plate to a new build....but you need an identity to get the correct paperwork.To be fair, of the 'ex-works' cars around, many do actually have genuine 'ex-works' parts fitted.
Dick slaughters car PEV 71S Escort RS1800 is still on the same shell since Roger Clarke had it, very little has changed apart from the steering wheel. Also Richard Goughs Escort RS1800 EUC958V ex sutton rothmans car,along with VLE756X these and the very very few with similar providence can be said to be true ex works or ex sutton/ford cars
aeropilot said:
muppetboy said:
But is it fair calling them 'EX WORKS' if basically none of it's parts are
It's the identity that's 'ex-works'. As with anything like this (not just old Escorts) it's the identity that continues.... no different to old racing cars or say old vintage aircraft, that have been resurected from a hole in the ground by attaching and original data plate to a new build....but you need an identity to get the correct paperwork.To be fair, of the 'ex-works' cars around, many do actually have genuine 'ex-works' parts fitted.
Have a look at www.sportscarmarket.com/columns/legal-files/2479-d... I like to know which 3 of the 5 major components this car has.
Perhaps if I could find a small piece of canvas which has Picasso's signature on it I could stick that on a painting my young nephew has just done and sell that for £20m as a "Picasso" - seems unlikely but I'm just following your logic.
LordBretSinclair said:
Oh I see now!!!!! Buy the correct registration number from a dealer, get a chassis plate and one wheel nut that has once been used on a works car. Now buy a new shell, engine, gearbox and every other new part need to build a car - put everything together and hey presto - an "ex-works" car.
Clearly you don't see, otherwise you wouldn't have posted such an obtuse statement.For a start you couldn't simply buy the correct registration number from a dealer or get a chassis plate to match it even if you could - not for an ex-works Escort at any rate. Any ex-works numbers not still allocated to a V5 simply don't exist anymore.
LordBretSinclair said:
Have a look at www.sportscarmarket.com/columns/legal-files/2479-d...
That article sums up exactly the issue I was trying, not so eloquantly, to explain about continuous history cars.And in the case of ex-works Escorts, is the only reason, any identites (outside of the few examples in museum/manufacturer collections) still exist. Reshell after reshell during a long competition history and now finally due to the emergence of historic rallying, another reshell back into their 'original' form.
It really isn't rocket science to understand
redhf said:
Dick slaughters car PEV 71S Escort RS1800 is still on the same shell since Roger Clark had it, very little has changed apart from the steering wheel.
Good to hear at least one has survived then... didn't know about the exact details on this one, but, Mk2's are less of a speciality than Mk1's for me.I still don't know why Ford didn't mothball Mikkola's WTW 569S right after the end of the '79 RAC Rally to sit alongside FEV 1H in it's heritage collection
aeropilot said:
redhf said:
Dick slaughters car PEV 71S Escort RS1800 is still on the same shell since Roger Clark had it, very little has changed apart from the steering wheel.
Good to hear at least one has survived then... didn't know about the exact details on this one, but, Mk2's are less of a speciality than Mk1's for me.I still don't know why Ford didn't mothball Mikkola's WTW 569S right after the end of the '79 RAC Rally to sit alongside FEV 1H in it's heritage collection
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