Sad fact of life, no skilled people
Discussion
Hi all, I`ve just come back form Beaulieu, where I met up with a number of old contacts,mostly old, some new but very few.Over the years I`ve seen many good businesses involved in the historic car industry close because they could not find skilled dedicated staff to grow their businesses. I picked up with one guy whom I`ve known for some 20 years.He told me the business had suffered 2 staff deaths, 2 retirements and is faced with just one other employee who is about to retire this year.The main man himself now has a backlog of 6 months and will be scaling down the operation later next year.Indicative of what is happening out there. Another taken by large group to rescue some of these skills seems to me to be in total confusion at present,with sourced foriegn contractors creating even more problems with the product . The company lacking direction cannot last for long . I wonder if this lack of direction is mainly due to the lack of skills base available to expand.As a result these businesses become very much a one man operation.I`m finding this myself, despite advertisng I have not yet been able to find staff to grow the business, which despite a full order book, will be forced to contract next year.How sad is that.
Paul, it isn't the same the world over but I fully understand. There is a young lad here who is a wizard with alloy bodywork for example. In the UK it seems that very few want to take on apprentices these days but if no one takes on the youngsters and trains them then the future is extremely bleak. On the other side of the coin I know here that youngsters don't stay the course because they can't be bothered to get up in the morning. Lanscape gardeners, builders all say the same. But I take heart when I look at my C-type and see how much of the work was done by apprentices, and damned well done at that.
Does the fact that you and your friend(s) have problems recruiting and retaining staff indicate a deeper problem with the businesses? Someone who loses 2 members of staff to retirement can hardly say they didn't see it coming (and maybe the 2 who unfortunately died were also more advanced in years?).
If they can't recruit and retain it must be that they're simply not making the job(s) attractive enough - if you pay peanuts etc.
I imagine that the owners of quite exclusive classics are used to paying reasonably high amounts to keep their vehicles in top condition, so there should be more margin in their businesses to reward staff than someone who is spannering on ordinary 2nd hand cars. If they have a 6 month backlog and don't have the margin to pay over the odds the I would suggest that there is room to increase their prices - it can't be that there are too many other places that potential clients can go. I know what I have to pay occasionally for the jobs which I can't do myself (and my classic-ish cars aren't exactly exclusive).
If you need to recruit apprentices or skilled people, you need (and should be able to afford) to be offering a bit more than an ordinary garage. I'm sure many would jump at the chance to work on a much-loved classic - there are still people who take pride in the quality of their work, but they're a bit thinner spread than 20 years ago.
I'm based in Belgium which has one of the most strictly controlled labour markets in terms of pay grades, official apprenticeships etc. but there is always room to reward better performers. I am also faced with having to find seasonal (skilled) personnel every year. You don't want to be letting just anyone loose with €200,000 of agricultural machinery!
My colleagues in agricultural contracting complain every year how difficult it is to find staff. We don't seem to have the same problem, and I think it's the little things that make the difference - the fridge kept full with various soft drinks, I'll take food out to the drivers if they're unexpectedly delayed, I have someone who cleans out the cabs, cleans windows etc.
If they can't recruit and retain it must be that they're simply not making the job(s) attractive enough - if you pay peanuts etc.
I imagine that the owners of quite exclusive classics are used to paying reasonably high amounts to keep their vehicles in top condition, so there should be more margin in their businesses to reward staff than someone who is spannering on ordinary 2nd hand cars. If they have a 6 month backlog and don't have the margin to pay over the odds the I would suggest that there is room to increase their prices - it can't be that there are too many other places that potential clients can go. I know what I have to pay occasionally for the jobs which I can't do myself (and my classic-ish cars aren't exactly exclusive).
If you need to recruit apprentices or skilled people, you need (and should be able to afford) to be offering a bit more than an ordinary garage. I'm sure many would jump at the chance to work on a much-loved classic - there are still people who take pride in the quality of their work, but they're a bit thinner spread than 20 years ago.
I'm based in Belgium which has one of the most strictly controlled labour markets in terms of pay grades, official apprenticeships etc. but there is always room to reward better performers. I am also faced with having to find seasonal (skilled) personnel every year. You don't want to be letting just anyone loose with €200,000 of agricultural machinery!
My colleagues in agricultural contracting complain every year how difficult it is to find staff. We don't seem to have the same problem, and I think it's the little things that make the difference - the fridge kept full with various soft drinks, I'll take food out to the drivers if they're unexpectedly delayed, I have someone who cleans out the cabs, cleans windows etc.
Edited by sunbeam_alpine on Tuesday 14th September 08:49
lowdrag said:
In the UK it seems that very few want to take on apprentices these days but if no one takes on the youngsters and trains them then the future is extremely bleak. On the other side of the coin I know here that youngsters don't stay the course because they can't be bothered to get up in the morning.
You've hit the nail on the head. Ten years ago I left college wanting to work with classic cars, or classic aircraft. The opportunities to do so while earning a wage simply weren't there, in my area. I din't have the financial means to move at that point either.
The local schools are no longer set up with an engineering focus (they lean towards sports, or public services), and don't have a clue if you start asking questions about your future options they don't have an answer for.
I started sending spec letters out to places. Most were happy for me to be a willing volunteer, or accept me if I already had the skills; but nowhere wanted to train me. So, I got a desk job with the MOD as it paid well, and abandoned the idea of classic cars being a career.
It's not just me though. My younger brother managed to get into classic car restoration, through a lot of hard work early on (volunteering at a local garage to start off with). He left... after becoming disillusioned that for all his hard work making stunning cars, some of his friends working at Tesco's were making more money than him.
Out of 10 people that were on his NVQ car bodywork course, two are still in the trade.
Don't think that I'm being over negative here.. neither me or him are quitters and we've stayed playing with classic cars (and aeroplanes) and learning on our own time. We're clearing decks at home as he's going to have a shot at building a C-type replica, and I intend to try a D-type. I'm sure this holds true for a lot of us that get the bug.
One other thing that might stave off the feeling of doom is taking a look around other forums, eg: Retro Rides, VZi, the Miniforum. There's an awful lot of young people with appreciation for machinery and the talent to go with it if you know where to look.
Regards,
Rich
The manager of the local (OK, a local) mobile phone shop used to work in a place restoring classics, but quit because he could make more money selling phones.
It isn't just the classic car industry this affects either. I used to work in computer support and we'd loose good technical people to go into sales because they got paid a lot more and didn't have to work as hard.
It isn't just the classic car industry this affects either. I used to work in computer support and we'd loose good technical people to go into sales because they got paid a lot more and didn't have to work as hard.
Having got a few years of life experience under my belt, I'd be happy to work hard and not get top dollar for doing something I enjoy.
The trouble being, that I did the office work thing, did some contract work etc - But it was so overwhelmingly boring and tiresome that when a contract was finished I was very happy not to have to go back to it...
The other trouble being - I would now love to be getting stuck into some mechanical mucky tasks but dont have the experience or know how, but all the will and enthusiasm in the world.
Having been and attended a short course to introduce me to the joys of wielding a welder - Im now hungry to do more, but appreciate that I will still be very very very lucky to be able to walk into anywhere and get work, even at a sort of tea boy level (let alone my less than preferable location). So its down to either taking a gamble and trying to do something myself and learn as I go - or be confined to a life of 'behind desk' boredom forever more
The trouble being, that I did the office work thing, did some contract work etc - But it was so overwhelmingly boring and tiresome that when a contract was finished I was very happy not to have to go back to it...
The other trouble being - I would now love to be getting stuck into some mechanical mucky tasks but dont have the experience or know how, but all the will and enthusiasm in the world.
Having been and attended a short course to introduce me to the joys of wielding a welder - Im now hungry to do more, but appreciate that I will still be very very very lucky to be able to walk into anywhere and get work, even at a sort of tea boy level (let alone my less than preferable location). So its down to either taking a gamble and trying to do something myself and learn as I go - or be confined to a life of 'behind desk' boredom forever more
have to agree with lowdrag and what he said, and people like ur mate haven't employed any apprentice's and now they dont have any staff, lots of companies haven't/dont take on apprentices and then the country is in the s
te.
i to woulda loved a job doing something, as it turns out i'm pretty handy, perhaps the way round this is to do what the aussies do. i believe they do something thats called older or mature apprentices, i think the govt might even help boost their wages so they aren't necessarily low paid, plus the company would get someone who's interested or already had some experience.
sign me up
te.i to woulda loved a job doing something, as it turns out i'm pretty handy, perhaps the way round this is to do what the aussies do. i believe they do something thats called older or mature apprentices, i think the govt might even help boost their wages so they aren't necessarily low paid, plus the company would get someone who's interested or already had some experience.
sign me up
I think a lot of the legislation that is heaped upon the workplace does not help, and as i am sure their are a lot of youngsters who want to work in the motor trade, once they realise what is involved suddenly a job in a nice warm office selling phones seems more appealing.
I started many moons ago when cellulose was all the rage and we gas welded wings on, i cant remember the last time i lead loaded a panel or metal finished a damaged panel.
Todays world of "i want it yesterday" has taken over, along with how cheap can you do it for mister,
sad but true, i am seeing out my last years in the trade and to be honest cant wait to call it a day, not the attitude to try and teach a youngster is it ?
peace and love .....
I started many moons ago when cellulose was all the rage and we gas welded wings on, i cant remember the last time i lead loaded a panel or metal finished a damaged panel.
Todays world of "i want it yesterday" has taken over, along with how cheap can you do it for mister,
sad but true, i am seeing out my last years in the trade and to be honest cant wait to call it a day, not the attitude to try and teach a youngster is it ?
peace and love .....
I enrolled/passed the NVQ Motor Vehical Engineering course at Leeds College of Tech some 15 years ago as a pre requesit for entry to the Motor Vehical Restoration Course there. I sat the first year of the two year restoration course and learnt basic panel fab, welding, paint etc..and really enjoyed it.
However about a year in I became disolutioned because even to my youthfull mind it was becoming apparent that my immediate, ( and quite possibly longer term ), future was likely to be painting crashed fiestas not race prepping Lolas! What I'd learn in two years was insignificant vs the beardy old blokes wearing aprons who deservedly were employed full time in the seemingly few and far between classic/restoration positions at the time. Even if I could've found an apprenticeship, ( which at the time appeared to be a thing of the past or as it transpires the future? ), I would've been paid pitance for some years which I could have managed with for the love of the job if there was a definate career path waiting?
Maybe if the guys who employed those beardy blokes had had the foresight to invest a few more quid in kids like me at the time, then the current situation may not have become so desperate. By the very nature of the skill/training involved, employers in this field have to take a long term view but unfortunately I think this was maybe overlooked by said employers who hadn't seen the situation creeping up on them/the industry, ( possibly because of the dawn of a global e revolution > techno job boom ? )
As a result I went a different direction and whilst I enjoy what I'm currently doing, ( tech sales/ business development for global supplier to sports turf/landscaping industry ), I would give my right arm to be involved in the classic motor industry however can't see a way back in, ( If any body out there would like to employ a driven/youngish/seemingly successful/die hard classic nut in a sales based role with perk of free lessons on english wheel at lunch times - you know where to find me! ). The irony is that my current position is now actually allowing me to own and enjoy classics/racing which may never have happened if I'd stuck with the crashed fiestas in the hope of landing a job with Rod Jolley or similar?
I sincerely hope that for their and all classic enthusiasts sakes they recognise that something needs to be done quickly and find a solution. Good luck.
PS. Remember the council Parkys who used to tend the borders/bowling greens/lawns/hanging baskets etc..? Gone, together with all their horticultural knowledge which never got passed on. Gradually getting replaced with, ( not always but often ), minimum wage unskilled lads from street cleansing depts etc..who more often than not don't want to be there/aren't interested. But hey, if you pay peanuts...
However about a year in I became disolutioned because even to my youthfull mind it was becoming apparent that my immediate, ( and quite possibly longer term ), future was likely to be painting crashed fiestas not race prepping Lolas! What I'd learn in two years was insignificant vs the beardy old blokes wearing aprons who deservedly were employed full time in the seemingly few and far between classic/restoration positions at the time. Even if I could've found an apprenticeship, ( which at the time appeared to be a thing of the past or as it transpires the future? ), I would've been paid pitance for some years which I could have managed with for the love of the job if there was a definate career path waiting?
Maybe if the guys who employed those beardy blokes had had the foresight to invest a few more quid in kids like me at the time, then the current situation may not have become so desperate. By the very nature of the skill/training involved, employers in this field have to take a long term view but unfortunately I think this was maybe overlooked by said employers who hadn't seen the situation creeping up on them/the industry, ( possibly because of the dawn of a global e revolution > techno job boom ? )
As a result I went a different direction and whilst I enjoy what I'm currently doing, ( tech sales/ business development for global supplier to sports turf/landscaping industry ), I would give my right arm to be involved in the classic motor industry however can't see a way back in, ( If any body out there would like to employ a driven/youngish/seemingly successful/die hard classic nut in a sales based role with perk of free lessons on english wheel at lunch times - you know where to find me! ). The irony is that my current position is now actually allowing me to own and enjoy classics/racing which may never have happened if I'd stuck with the crashed fiestas in the hope of landing a job with Rod Jolley or similar?
I sincerely hope that for their and all classic enthusiasts sakes they recognise that something needs to be done quickly and find a solution. Good luck.
PS. Remember the council Parkys who used to tend the borders/bowling greens/lawns/hanging baskets etc..? Gone, together with all their horticultural knowledge which never got passed on. Gradually getting replaced with, ( not always but often ), minimum wage unskilled lads from street cleansing depts etc..who more often than not don't want to be there/aren't interested. But hey, if you pay peanuts...
Their was a program late last night,I finished work at 10 so went home to chill out.It was all about the north in the early 60s.One thing that struck me was the big employers in Engineering, when the individual could walk out of one factory and into another in the same road.The up side here is experience.We have very few people now who have that work ethic and the experience to match, especially in my field.Sombody mentioned wages early on. I would be prepared to match any salary if It mean`t my business could grow. That is not the case. My professioneal is not about playing with classic cars, which the majority of readers here seem to think it is, its` a serious working enviroment coupled with a responsibility to yourself, the employer, me and the customer.
I have had apprentices and have one now. One former App has been with me since school. Very good because I taught him. Now he forms the backbone of the company, he decides it`s time to go to Australia and see the world.I feel I let down having offered him a directorship and recently giving a 30% pay rise. Though of course I wish him well, its` a very selfish and immature attitude . As far as I see it, I have wasted the last 10 years training him, especially if he cannot be replaced. Another worked on a good salary as all my staff do, then tried over time to set himself up by steadily approaching my client base for work, a very simpleton, big headed action. A good development engineer,he left and took his ego in a skip lorry.
His `business ` failed after 10 months sadly.
So far,I have been unable to replace him and have only 3 months before he goes.
I`m seriously considering going back to a 2 man operation, because the skills base is just not available.
I have had apprentices and have one now. One former App has been with me since school. Very good because I taught him. Now he forms the backbone of the company, he decides it`s time to go to Australia and see the world.I feel I let down having offered him a directorship and recently giving a 30% pay rise. Though of course I wish him well, its` a very selfish and immature attitude . As far as I see it, I have wasted the last 10 years training him, especially if he cannot be replaced. Another worked on a good salary as all my staff do, then tried over time to set himself up by steadily approaching my client base for work, a very simpleton, big headed action. A good development engineer,he left and took his ego in a skip lorry.
His `business ` failed after 10 months sadly.
So far,I have been unable to replace him and have only 3 months before he goes.
I`m seriously considering going back to a 2 man operation, because the skills base is just not available.
It is really sad. My job means I speak to many classic car restoration businesses, and nearly all of the good ones have more work than they can deal with. While this sounds great for business, without skilled labour they can't expand. I also know of quite a few who will close the business when they retire, and many of those who did apprenticeships in the 60s are coming to that point now.
I agree that the incentives for youngsters are limited, especially when relatively mundane work elsewhere can pay more, and the Government doesn't offer much support for apprenticeships. Maybe the industry needs some sort of foundation, where the big players pay in to subsidise apprentice placements?
I agree that the incentives for youngsters are limited, especially when relatively mundane work elsewhere can pay more, and the Government doesn't offer much support for apprenticeships. Maybe the industry needs some sort of foundation, where the big players pay in to subsidise apprentice placements?
It's sad news really, but evidently no surprise.
I spent two weeks work experience working at a Classic Jaguar Specialist, I enjoyed it, it has to be said. I watched the owner clearing out the crank and bearings from a Jaguar Mk2, did some valeting and went about waxoyling an XJS.
It was a well spent two weeks, but the overwhelming feeling was that he was pushing me to work with new cars, not classics. I can understand he reasoning as to why, but I don't want to look back and see his small specialist gone forever. At the moment he has two other employees but he is considering moving due to being fed up with how the customers don't bother to pay up, so he has to hassle them. It's a sad state of affairs.
I was in talks with RW774 a couple of months ago about working with him, but there is the reality factor of having no income while going about learning. I wouldn't say no to working with cars on any occasion, but due to my location it couldn't happen.
I spent two weeks work experience working at a Classic Jaguar Specialist, I enjoyed it, it has to be said. I watched the owner clearing out the crank and bearings from a Jaguar Mk2, did some valeting and went about waxoyling an XJS.
It was a well spent two weeks, but the overwhelming feeling was that he was pushing me to work with new cars, not classics. I can understand he reasoning as to why, but I don't want to look back and see his small specialist gone forever. At the moment he has two other employees but he is considering moving due to being fed up with how the customers don't bother to pay up, so he has to hassle them. It's a sad state of affairs.
I was in talks with RW774 a couple of months ago about working with him, but there is the reality factor of having no income while going about learning. I wouldn't say no to working with cars on any occasion, but due to my location it couldn't happen.
RW774 said:
The up side here is experience.We have very few people now who have that work ethic and the experience to match, especially in my field.Sombody mentioned wages early on. I would be prepared to match any salary if It mean`t my business could grow. That is not the case. My professioneal is not about playing with classic cars, which the majority of readers here seem to think it is, its` a serious working enviroment coupled with a responsibility to yourself, the employer, me and the customer.
There's always been a level of arrogance in the classic car world, to some extent creating the skills divide between the older and newer generation. There's always that reluctance to let young people work on the stuff that gave them the attraction to the job to start with. It's going to be interesting in the next few years, to see what will happen to address this.The fact that you seem to think the majority of us assume you are 'playing with classic cars' worries me a tad. It's making an assumption of a person, without actually knowing them, which is not something I would like to see if I were a young person looking to you as a potential employer. The newspapers continual suggestion that a lot of us younger generation are a bunch of lazy dole scroungers is far from the truth.
Speaking for myself; I take pride in my work, wherever I work. I've worked in some pretty awful places just to stay employed. After some of the statements in your post though, (like those about your former employees wanting to try out on their own... how exactly did you start?) I don't think that I would ever want to work for you.
Good luck in finding an apprentice who'll stay 'till retirement age. I think you may be advertising for a while.
I've never heard so much crap in all my life.
There's no shortage of skilled people. If there's more work than can be done, then there's a shortage of business acumen.
Break it down. Skilled people? The people part is easy, there's no shortage of them.
Skills, that's a combination of aptitude and experience. Aptitude is probably genetic. You can't predict where you find it. It could be in a banker, or a grave digger. There are plenty of ways in which aptitude, misses the target.
Experience... That's just time and space.
Find the aptitude, nurture it, and make money.
The truth is, anyone can weld, beat panels, or spray paint. It's practice. In fact there is no reason why you can't use an actual monkey, if you have enough time.
If there is so much work, and too little resource then prices go up. If prices go up, then there's a way to afford the time and space for learning.
The real question, is.... Can an actual monkey inherit and run a successful business?
There's no shortage of skilled people. If there's more work than can be done, then there's a shortage of business acumen.
Break it down. Skilled people? The people part is easy, there's no shortage of them.
Skills, that's a combination of aptitude and experience. Aptitude is probably genetic. You can't predict where you find it. It could be in a banker, or a grave digger. There are plenty of ways in which aptitude, misses the target.
Experience... That's just time and space.
Find the aptitude, nurture it, and make money.
The truth is, anyone can weld, beat panels, or spray paint. It's practice. In fact there is no reason why you can't use an actual monkey, if you have enough time.
If there is so much work, and too little resource then prices go up. If prices go up, then there's a way to afford the time and space for learning.
The real question, is.... Can an actual monkey inherit and run a successful business?
Edited by dilbert on Wednesday 15th September 12:15
In the last few years there has been a huge shift in attitudes and expectations of both (potential) employees and business owners.
From a potential employees perspective it seems that everyone wants mega bucks and glamourous jobs these days, no one seems to simply want to just earn a living, which is madness. As long as you can cover your outgoings plus a little bit whats the problem. However many people, especially the young, have expectations of what they 'should' be earning and what jobs they should be doing that are so far out of whack I don't know where to begin. I know thats a generalisation and of course nto everyone is like that but it does seem to be on the increase.
Employers are no better, I spent 10 years in corporate IT, I left to start my own business, I tried to return to IT after about 18mnths (got cold feet essentially), however, despite the years of experience (on still relevent software/hardware) glowing references etc, no one was interested because I don't have a degree, which is so utterly ludicrious as to induce vein popping rage when I think about the short sighted fools who think that criteria up. Now this may sound like a bitter rant, but it's not, my business is on the up and this just seemed like a good real world example to use. I know many others who've run into similar problems in different industries.
However, in my current line of work the habit of getting people to work for free is everywhere (it's good experience etc etc, which, surely isnt work, as work implies your going to be paid. Although there's always someone to jump at the chance of being a slave, what they dont realise is that you mostly wont get paid to work for them in the future after 'working' for free , they just use more slaves for nothing. Eventually this depletes the resource pool as no one who's any good at anything is willing to work for free/expenses , nor should they. It's zero sum economics, and we appear to be engaged in a race to the bottom.
IMO we live in strange times regarding employment/skills/expectations
From a potential employees perspective it seems that everyone wants mega bucks and glamourous jobs these days, no one seems to simply want to just earn a living, which is madness. As long as you can cover your outgoings plus a little bit whats the problem. However many people, especially the young, have expectations of what they 'should' be earning and what jobs they should be doing that are so far out of whack I don't know where to begin. I know thats a generalisation and of course nto everyone is like that but it does seem to be on the increase.
Employers are no better, I spent 10 years in corporate IT, I left to start my own business, I tried to return to IT after about 18mnths (got cold feet essentially), however, despite the years of experience (on still relevent software/hardware) glowing references etc, no one was interested because I don't have a degree, which is so utterly ludicrious as to induce vein popping rage when I think about the short sighted fools who think that criteria up. Now this may sound like a bitter rant, but it's not, my business is on the up and this just seemed like a good real world example to use. I know many others who've run into similar problems in different industries.
However, in my current line of work the habit of getting people to work for free is everywhere (it's good experience etc etc, which, surely isnt work, as work implies your going to be paid. Although there's always someone to jump at the chance of being a slave, what they dont realise is that you mostly wont get paid to work for them in the future after 'working' for free , they just use more slaves for nothing. Eventually this depletes the resource pool as no one who's any good at anything is willing to work for free/expenses , nor should they. It's zero sum economics, and we appear to be engaged in a race to the bottom.
IMO we live in strange times regarding employment/skills/expectations
dilbert said:
The real question, is.... Can an actual monkey inherit and run a successful business?
Ooh, theres hope for me yet then 
Seriously though... Ive always loved buying, driving, tinkering and ultimately selling cars - so why not take it up a notch?
It would be much more difficult to take the step if I was already employed elsewhere, but Im not, so why not??? You cant buy experience, and the only way to get it is by trying.
(The only problem, as far as this thread is concerned, is that Im not a 'youngster' whos likely to be able to carry any skills I pick up, on into the distant future.)
I think it boils down to employers wanting experience which is fine to an extent but someone somewhere has to take a punt and give people the opportunity to develop that experience in the first place. I appreciate companies are all keen to save money at the moment but what about the old saying that you need to speculate to accumulate.
Perhaps if there was a minimim term and wage for which apprentices should work that would help to develop a level of commitment from both employer and employee.
dave
Perhaps if there was a minimim term and wage for which apprentices should work that would help to develop a level of commitment from both employer and employee.
dave
I have read this with some interest as I did have my own business for near on 10 years some time ago restoring and building classics.
I don’t disagree with some aspects that training good staff and finding them is difficult, I put 2 lads thru collage but in the end one was so unreliable he had to go and the other finally realised he could earn more on modern cars. In all the were 7 of us, 2 part time.
One aspect a lot of people seem to realise is that it is also the punter, customer etc, call them what you want very rarely want to pay the going price for a job. If you look at my business which I wound up in 1999 my rent alone was due to increase to 35k a year for 3500 sq ft, on top of that was insurance, electricity, gas, wages, rates, and don’t forget rates are based on rentable valve.
We were very lucky that we turned 75% of quotes into jobs and had a fairly full order book, however most large restoration jobs were negotiated based on a quotation, I can’t remember the last one that actually accepted the first quote. Now many of you may say this is normal and the sign of the times but how many of you go into Morrison’s, Tesco’s etc and negotiate your grocery bill. Before you also say that’s different, it isn’t, it is exactly the same just on a different scale.
I would regularly have customers look at material prices and gasp, many failed to believe that good quality materials were so expensive, a good quality 1 ltr 2k paint is anywhere from £60 to £90, 4 ltrs of good quality undercoat was in the region of £75 to £95.
The other issue was “ can I take it now and pay later” again when explained go and ask the same question when you buy you groceries we would get abuse and nasty comments. Tell me why I should let someone take their goods unpaid, if anything paying promptly is more important to a small company than someone as large as the big corporate.
We would continually get “can I supply the materials” we used to say yes and then this cheap eastern European crap would turn up and we would have to say “no” sorry.
I was doing my own accounts and VAT to keep costs down and in the end with the hours I worked per week I was earning McDonalds money.
Some will say well this is the pleasure or pain of working for yourself doing something you enjoy, but I ask you all realistically would you work for £6 per hour, if you say yes then I will call you a liar.
So don’t be too hasty to blame companies for packing it in due to lack of good staff out there, they are and I know many like myself, however a good proportion of the blame has to be at the customer/punters door by not willing to pay a realistic price for the hours worked, so that this can be passed on to the staff to pay them a decent working wage with holds a lot of responsibilities.
I don’t disagree with some aspects that training good staff and finding them is difficult, I put 2 lads thru collage but in the end one was so unreliable he had to go and the other finally realised he could earn more on modern cars. In all the were 7 of us, 2 part time.
One aspect a lot of people seem to realise is that it is also the punter, customer etc, call them what you want very rarely want to pay the going price for a job. If you look at my business which I wound up in 1999 my rent alone was due to increase to 35k a year for 3500 sq ft, on top of that was insurance, electricity, gas, wages, rates, and don’t forget rates are based on rentable valve.
We were very lucky that we turned 75% of quotes into jobs and had a fairly full order book, however most large restoration jobs were negotiated based on a quotation, I can’t remember the last one that actually accepted the first quote. Now many of you may say this is normal and the sign of the times but how many of you go into Morrison’s, Tesco’s etc and negotiate your grocery bill. Before you also say that’s different, it isn’t, it is exactly the same just on a different scale.
I would regularly have customers look at material prices and gasp, many failed to believe that good quality materials were so expensive, a good quality 1 ltr 2k paint is anywhere from £60 to £90, 4 ltrs of good quality undercoat was in the region of £75 to £95.
The other issue was “ can I take it now and pay later” again when explained go and ask the same question when you buy you groceries we would get abuse and nasty comments. Tell me why I should let someone take their goods unpaid, if anything paying promptly is more important to a small company than someone as large as the big corporate.
We would continually get “can I supply the materials” we used to say yes and then this cheap eastern European crap would turn up and we would have to say “no” sorry.
I was doing my own accounts and VAT to keep costs down and in the end with the hours I worked per week I was earning McDonalds money.
Some will say well this is the pleasure or pain of working for yourself doing something you enjoy, but I ask you all realistically would you work for £6 per hour, if you say yes then I will call you a liar.
So don’t be too hasty to blame companies for packing it in due to lack of good staff out there, they are and I know many like myself, however a good proportion of the blame has to be at the customer/punters door by not willing to pay a realistic price for the hours worked, so that this can be passed on to the staff to pay them a decent working wage with holds a lot of responsibilities.
neilr said:
In the last few years there has been a huge shift in attitudes and expectations of both (potential) employees and business owners.
From a potential employees perspective it seems that everyone wants mega bucks and glamourous jobs these days, no one seems to simply want to just earn a living, which is madness. As long as you can cover your outgoings plus a little bit whats the problem. However many people, especially the young, have expectations of what they 'should' be earning and what jobs they should be doing that are so far out of whack I don't know where to begin. I know thats a generalisation and of course nto everyone is like that but it does seem to be on the increase.
Employers are no better, I spent 10 years in corporate IT, I left to start my own business, I tried to return to IT after about 18mnths (got cold feet essentially), however, despite the years of experience (on still relevent software/hardware) glowing references etc, no one was interested because I don't have a degree, which is so utterly ludicrious as to induce vein popping rage when I think about the short sighted fools who think that criteria up. Now this may sound like a bitter rant, but it's not, my business is on the up and this just seemed like a good real world example to use. I know many others who've run into similar problems in different industries.
However, in my current line of work the habit of getting people to work for free is everywhere (it's good experience etc etc, which, surely isnt work, as work implies your going to be paid. Although there's always someone to jump at the chance of being a slave, what they dont realise is that you mostly wont get paid to work for them in the future after 'working' for free , they just use more slaves for nothing. Eventually this depletes the resource pool as no one who's any good at anything is willing to work for free/expenses , nor should they. It's zero sum economics, and we appear to be engaged in a race to the bottom.
IMO we live in strange times regarding employment/skills/expectations
Sadly this is too true.From a potential employees perspective it seems that everyone wants mega bucks and glamourous jobs these days, no one seems to simply want to just earn a living, which is madness. As long as you can cover your outgoings plus a little bit whats the problem. However many people, especially the young, have expectations of what they 'should' be earning and what jobs they should be doing that are so far out of whack I don't know where to begin. I know thats a generalisation and of course nto everyone is like that but it does seem to be on the increase.
Employers are no better, I spent 10 years in corporate IT, I left to start my own business, I tried to return to IT after about 18mnths (got cold feet essentially), however, despite the years of experience (on still relevent software/hardware) glowing references etc, no one was interested because I don't have a degree, which is so utterly ludicrious as to induce vein popping rage when I think about the short sighted fools who think that criteria up. Now this may sound like a bitter rant, but it's not, my business is on the up and this just seemed like a good real world example to use. I know many others who've run into similar problems in different industries.
However, in my current line of work the habit of getting people to work for free is everywhere (it's good experience etc etc, which, surely isnt work, as work implies your going to be paid. Although there's always someone to jump at the chance of being a slave, what they dont realise is that you mostly wont get paid to work for them in the future after 'working' for free , they just use more slaves for nothing. Eventually this depletes the resource pool as no one who's any good at anything is willing to work for free/expenses , nor should they. It's zero sum economics, and we appear to be engaged in a race to the bottom.
IMO we live in strange times regarding employment/skills/expectations
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