Escort RS1600 costs
Discussion
I'm puzzled here. Now having built an FIA papered racer from scratch, including a one-off hand hammered alloy body, I know what costs are. But, in this month's Octane, there is one shown on page 149 which sold for £77,00. Fair enough, but they say underneath that it cost £140,000 to build. How on earth can this be? Ford parts in my day were cheap which is why so many people rallied and raced Fords, but where on earth did all the cost of this come from?
lowdrag said:
Fair enough, but they say underneath that it cost £140,000 to build. How on earth can this be? Ford parts in my day were cheap which is why so many people rallied and raced Fords, but where on earth did all the cost of this come from?
Labour charges....especially if it was a commercial build by say, Dave Sutton's Historic Motorsport or such like. Yes, parts alone wouldn't add up to that if you do yourself, but, no one would pay that sort of money for a 'self-built' to current regs RS1600.
And Ford Motorsport parts arn't cheap today, as they arn't made by Ford any more. Less economy of scale as well, despite the current popularity of Mk1/2 Escorts in historic rallying.
A 'works' spec RS back in the day was never a cheap item anyway. We're not talking 'club' rally stuff here.
jagracer said:
lowdrag said:
I'm puzzled here. Now having built an FIA papered racer from scratch,
How do you mange to get FIA papers on a brand new car?lowdrag said:
jagracer said:
lowdrag said:
I'm puzzled here. Now having built an FIA papered racer from scratch,
How do you mange to get FIA papers on a brand new car?Well, until the crunch it was going to race at the Classic this year, but at around £7,000 for one and a half hours track time each driver I'm afraid it was out of the question. The car will be at Val de Viennes at the beginning of June and Monthlery at the end of June though. It will not race but I should be at Silverstone at the end of July with it too.
I get the impression that top end classic motorsport in general is becoming increasingly expensive, be it Goodwood or MSA British Historic Rally Championship.
I've done a few classic rallies - mostly navigational on the road but with off road "tests" and was thinking of trying a few stage rallies. I didn't want to be competitive - just have a go for a bit of fun. My car isn't far off the minimum requirements in terms of safety, even though it would be way off the pace. However, as soon as I started reading about people having service crews changing suspension arms at service halts as a precaution and using several sets of tyres during a single day event I realised I could never be on the same timing sheet, probably not get to the end of the first stage.
I wouldn’t begrudge other people having more money than me but, and maybe Lowdrag could shed some light on this, I wonder how many of the people in the £7000-a-go-races are real enthusiasts who loved cars from childhood and are lucky enough to have the money to live their dream, and how many are people who quite liked cars and thought it might be a bit of fun. If they are the former then fair play to 'em. If they are the latter it is a bit of a shame (though I can't blame them).
I’m not big into art, I didn’t spend hours in galleries being inspired (though I went to a few), I never dreamed of one day owning an art collection but I guess that if I had millions of pounds to spare I would buy some expensive art and quite enjoy it. I would thus contribute to pricing some genuine art lovers out of the market. Which would be a shame.
I've done a few classic rallies - mostly navigational on the road but with off road "tests" and was thinking of trying a few stage rallies. I didn't want to be competitive - just have a go for a bit of fun. My car isn't far off the minimum requirements in terms of safety, even though it would be way off the pace. However, as soon as I started reading about people having service crews changing suspension arms at service halts as a precaution and using several sets of tyres during a single day event I realised I could never be on the same timing sheet, probably not get to the end of the first stage.
I wouldn’t begrudge other people having more money than me but, and maybe Lowdrag could shed some light on this, I wonder how many of the people in the £7000-a-go-races are real enthusiasts who loved cars from childhood and are lucky enough to have the money to live their dream, and how many are people who quite liked cars and thought it might be a bit of fun. If they are the former then fair play to 'em. If they are the latter it is a bit of a shame (though I can't blame them).
I’m not big into art, I didn’t spend hours in galleries being inspired (though I went to a few), I never dreamed of one day owning an art collection but I guess that if I had millions of pounds to spare I would buy some expensive art and quite enjoy it. I would thus contribute to pricing some genuine art lovers out of the market. Which would be a shame.
Well, Chris, the fact of the matter is that motor racing, no matter at what level, is getting damned expensive and I have to pick my events very carefully. I can't justify (let alone afford) £7,000 for 90 minutes at the wheel, but three days at Val de Viennes (a cancer charity fund raiser) costs £200 including two lunches and breakfasts for two. A track day here at the Bugatti circuit is costing me £70, but that is as an ACO member. Normal track days are now running around £200 in France and a day at Goodwood £300. I am also very restricted as to where I can go since both cars are around 105db which excludes many tracks. Doing some checking around, the Masters series at Brands in two weeks is £425 for a 40 minute race and the Silverstone Classic varies since each race has a different sponsor. Curiously, one of the cheapest races was the XK one at the Classic last year which was sponsored by Jaguar and cost only £100.
In the main, most people racing are there for the fun (at least at affordable car levels) but many of the rich are in it for the swank and the glory. I'll never forgive Juan Barazzi's exploit at the Revival several years back when in the TT race the rules stipulated a driver change was compulsory so he sent the professional out for 54 minutes and then took over himself for three laps at the end. Not playing the game and Goodwood immediately changed the rules to a change between 25 and 35 minutes of the race. Several in the Ferrari world come to mind and that TV programme on the chef who did the Mille Miglia and blew the engine on the first day had me hugging my ribs with glee. About £1 million for one day!
Anyway, I still can't figure out £144,000 for an Escort!
In the main, most people racing are there for the fun (at least at affordable car levels) but many of the rich are in it for the swank and the glory. I'll never forgive Juan Barazzi's exploit at the Revival several years back when in the TT race the rules stipulated a driver change was compulsory so he sent the professional out for 54 minutes and then took over himself for three laps at the end. Not playing the game and Goodwood immediately changed the rules to a change between 25 and 35 minutes of the race. Several in the Ferrari world come to mind and that TV programme on the chef who did the Mille Miglia and blew the engine on the first day had me hugging my ribs with glee. About £1 million for one day!
Anyway, I still can't figure out £144,000 for an Escort!
Edited by lowdrag on Friday 14th May 12:04
BMWChris said:
I wouldn’t begrudge other people having more money than me but, and maybe Lowdrag could shed some light on this, I wonder how many of the people in the £7000-a-go-races are real enthusiasts who loved cars from childhood and are lucky enough to have the money to live their dream, and how many are people who quite liked cars and thought it might be a bit of fun. If they are the former then fair play to 'em. If they are the latter it is a bit of a shame (though I can't blame them).
There certainly some who come into the former category, I suspect there are quite a lot in the latter.As Lowdrag says a certain TV chef comes to mind.
lowdrag said:
Anyway, I still can't figure out £144,000 for an Escort!
It's certainly 30% higher than I would expect....butIt depends would you expect to be the ratio of labour cost vs. parts costs for something done by the most reknowned specialist in it's field for say a comp prepared car?
2:1, 3:1 more or less...?
That 144k may have included a known 'historic' log book/reg number/identity which may well have cost a fair some, not to mention rare original works parts as opposed to remanufactured pattern parts, which again would add considerably to parts costs....?
Even so, engine/trans/axle and shell parts costs alone would be getting on for 40k+, and I know from one of two people that have made serious enquires for a Mk1 or Mk2 'works' replica from one of a few certain well known specialists, is that the quotes gave next to no change from a six figure sum.
lowdrag said:
Well, until the crunch it was going to race at the Classic this year, but at around £7,000 for one and a half hours track time each driver I'm afraid it was out of the question. The car will be at Val de Viennes at the beginning of June and Monthlery at the end of June though. It will not race but I should be at Silverstone at the end of July with it too.
Hope this isn't a silly question but is that figure an all in price including fuel, any crew that has to be paid and insurances etc. as I would hate to think the entry alone would be that expensive, even at the classic.a8hex said:
BMWChris said:
I wouldn’t begrudge other people having more money than me but, and maybe Lowdrag could shed some light on this, I wonder how many of the people in the £7000-a-go-races are real enthusiasts who loved cars from childhood and are lucky enough to have the money to live their dream, and how many are people who quite liked cars and thought it might be a bit of fun. If they are the former then fair play to 'em. If they are the latter it is a bit of a shame (though I can't blame them).
There certainly some who come into the former category, I suspect there are quite a lot in the latter.As Lowdrag says a certain TV chef comes to mind.
I remember there being one year in particalar at the Revival, maybe 2007, where cars were crashing constantly, not only in the tin tops but in the TT/prototype races, which indicated to me a few from ChrisBMW's latter camp.
The basic price for racing at the Le Mans Classic is 4,900 euros. Add to that (for most people anyway) a motorhome or a hotel (£1,200 a twin room for four nights just behind the Bugatti circuit), food, set of tyres, (£1,000) ferry, petrol, brake pads, servicing, even excluding a full preparation of the car beforehand, and I think I have underpriced the overall cost. Then if you want to insure the car for racing, etc. etc. This is becoming an event for the super rich. Oh and there is of course the "Little Big Mans" which is pedal car sized with 50cc engines for the kids. That is 400 euros!
Now let's move on to club interior parking; I can't find the actual prices but here are the prices for a commercial tent in the village.
A 9 square metre tent is 900€ and an addition tent similar is 650€ These are the minimum prices tucked away. For a good site add 25% if you want to be in the paddock. A table (2 metres long) is 40€, each chair 4€ and so on. Now add on the cost of lunch baskets (dear, I think about 30€ per person) and you get the picture.
Frankly, I remember the first Le Mans Classic which was free and easy, like the first Festival of Speed or Revival. Now it is all about money, about VIP packages, about people who come to get drunk for free and know not a blind thing about cars nor care less.
Am I alone in seeking out the real aficianados events where we are there because we want to be, to see the racing, to have fun but unlike Le Mans 24 hours in June not there to party and never even see a car, to talk to the drivers, to discuss mechanics and performance, to really get involved in the classic car scene? I think we are fewer and fewer.
Classic car racing, at the higher levels like this and the Monaco Historic, is now becoming rich boys playthings, with the rest of us out on a limb. There, I've had my rant and feel better for it.
Now let's move on to club interior parking; I can't find the actual prices but here are the prices for a commercial tent in the village.
A 9 square metre tent is 900€ and an addition tent similar is 650€ These are the minimum prices tucked away. For a good site add 25% if you want to be in the paddock. A table (2 metres long) is 40€, each chair 4€ and so on. Now add on the cost of lunch baskets (dear, I think about 30€ per person) and you get the picture.
Frankly, I remember the first Le Mans Classic which was free and easy, like the first Festival of Speed or Revival. Now it is all about money, about VIP packages, about people who come to get drunk for free and know not a blind thing about cars nor care less.
Am I alone in seeking out the real aficianados events where we are there because we want to be, to see the racing, to have fun but unlike Le Mans 24 hours in June not there to party and never even see a car, to talk to the drivers, to discuss mechanics and performance, to really get involved in the classic car scene? I think we are fewer and fewer.
Classic car racing, at the higher levels like this and the Monaco Historic, is now becoming rich boys playthings, with the rest of us out on a limb. There, I've had my rant and feel better for it.
braddo said:
a8hex said:
BMWChris said:
I wouldn’t begrudge other people having more money than me but, and maybe Lowdrag could shed some light on this, I wonder how many of the people in the £7000-a-go-races are real enthusiasts who loved cars from childhood and are lucky enough to have the money to live their dream, and how many are people who quite liked cars and thought it might be a bit of fun. If they are the former then fair play to 'em. If they are the latter it is a bit of a shame (though I can't blame them).
There certainly some who come into the former category, I suspect there are quite a lot in the latter.As Lowdrag says a certain TV chef comes to mind.
I remember there being one year in particalar at the Revival, maybe 2007, where cars were crashing constantly, not only in the tin tops but in the TT/prototype races, which indicated to me a few from ChrisBMW's latter camp.
The rumour on here was that he hadn't actually bought it and the car actually belonged to Masarati UK.
If he had bought it and was looking to sell it afterwards he was being even more of a tit. Lets face it, anyone interested in the car would know it was in need of a total engine rebuild with all the major mechanical bits being thoroughly tested first.
I remember talking to a man who usually preps and supports a few cars for the event every year. He commented that they seemed to be leaving precious little time for the event itself so it seemed apparent that he was going to break the car even before they got to that bit of the program. Pity, there are a lot of classic driving/racing celebs they could have followed and made a great TV program.
If he had bought it and was looking to sell it afterwards he was being even more of a tit. Lets face it, anyone interested in the car would know it was in need of a total engine rebuild with all the major mechanical bits being thoroughly tested first.
I remember talking to a man who usually preps and supports a few cars for the event every year. He commented that they seemed to be leaving precious little time for the event itself so it seemed apparent that he was going to break the car even before they got to that bit of the program. Pity, there are a lot of classic driving/racing celebs they could have followed and made a great TV program.
I agree, £144k for a Mk 1 RS1600 is over the top IMO, however my old Mk 2 Escort, DKP 191T, as it has history [ 2 x international WRC wins ] is worth something into 6 figures now, even though the only original part, is the log book.
Its not alone, any Good condition Mk 1 or 2 [ especially Mk 1 as there rarer ] Escort Rally car with a Works or Sutton Reg no is a similar price.
Historic Escort Rally cars, IMO are way too expensive, but when you see the price of the components, like £20k ish for a competitive BDA, £5k ish for a syncro ZF, £4k ish for a full spec atlas axle, and not forgetting the shell, which is now difficult to find a really good one.
Gartrac, who, again, IMO are the best at prepping these great old cars [ and a great bunch of people ], charge around £11k to prep a shell, so long as its basically sound, if its scabby, and requires new panels, you can stick another £4k or so on that !
That’s over £40k, just for the main parts, full retail on top spec historic AP brakes are around £2k alone!
Get someone to build it, plus all the numerous other parts, and you see where you almost £100k goes!
Answer is, don’t do Historic, you can still use Mk 1 & 2 Escorts [ and other similar cars] in various events, including rallies, you just run in the Modified class, with any combo of engine/ box within RAC rules you like, you can build a great spec car for less than ½ a historic, which is potentially faster as well.
Also, just run the car to your budget, if your just out for fun, you don’t need to change suspension / tyres at every service, sure, you do if you want to be up there, , worn tyres just mean more sliding about, which whilst not as fast, Is more fun
Co-incidentally, I am working on a Non Historic Mk 2 to go back to rallying, and the occasional hillclimb etc Just for fun.
P.S. Did try and post a pic, but for some reason this site is not allowing me to do so at present.
Its not alone, any Good condition Mk 1 or 2 [ especially Mk 1 as there rarer ] Escort Rally car with a Works or Sutton Reg no is a similar price.
Historic Escort Rally cars, IMO are way too expensive, but when you see the price of the components, like £20k ish for a competitive BDA, £5k ish for a syncro ZF, £4k ish for a full spec atlas axle, and not forgetting the shell, which is now difficult to find a really good one.
Gartrac, who, again, IMO are the best at prepping these great old cars [ and a great bunch of people ], charge around £11k to prep a shell, so long as its basically sound, if its scabby, and requires new panels, you can stick another £4k or so on that !
That’s over £40k, just for the main parts, full retail on top spec historic AP brakes are around £2k alone!
Get someone to build it, plus all the numerous other parts, and you see where you almost £100k goes!
Answer is, don’t do Historic, you can still use Mk 1 & 2 Escorts [ and other similar cars] in various events, including rallies, you just run in the Modified class, with any combo of engine/ box within RAC rules you like, you can build a great spec car for less than ½ a historic, which is potentially faster as well.
Also, just run the car to your budget, if your just out for fun, you don’t need to change suspension / tyres at every service, sure, you do if you want to be up there, , worn tyres just mean more sliding about, which whilst not as fast, Is more fun
Co-incidentally, I am working on a Non Historic Mk 2 to go back to rallying, and the occasional hillclimb etc Just for fun.
P.S. Did try and post a pic, but for some reason this site is not allowing me to do so at present.
braddo said:
I didn't get why that chef thought he had to buy a £500k car and restore it to go in that event. Isn't it possible in more lowly stuff like Alfa Giuliettas and suchlike?
I remember there being one year in particalar at the Revival, maybe 2007, where cars were crashing constantly, not only in the tin tops but in the TT/prototype races, which indicated to me a few from ChrisBMW's latter camp.
1. The chef had a head wider than a barn door and wanted to show off, screwed up and got stung big time. Three cheers.I remember there being one year in particalar at the Revival, maybe 2007, where cars were crashing constantly, not only in the tin tops but in the TT/prototype races, which indicated to me a few from ChrisBMW's latter camp.
2. The Revival 2006 saw Dario Franchitti stuff a lightweight E-type very badly at Fordwater. He's a professional driver and the story of how, apparently, the owner tried to take him to court for damaging his car is illuminating.
3. Same practice on Friday saw Adrian Newey stuff his own lightweight E-type at Fordwater. This but two months after he wrecked his GT40 at the first chicane at the Le Mans Classic.
Photos available if required. But, in #1, we have a professional driver making a rare error. In #2, we have the very rich amateur damaging his own bank balance.
Its fecking frustrating really... I am trying to find which engine to chuck in my Mk1 Escort and have choice of a weber powered 1300cc crossflow or a 20k BDA to stay in the pre-71 class, the split is 0-1100cc, 1101-1300cc, 1301-2000cc.. Anything less than a BDA puts you back of the grid. But honestly my finances cant justify a hot BDA and Atlas axle, so am stuck with a wheezy 1300
if I try a 2ltr Pinto, I am stuck in the 76 class with all the rsr 911 etc..
argh..
if I try a 2ltr Pinto, I am stuck in the 76 class with all the rsr 911 etc..
argh..
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