Bad situation - advice needed
Discussion
Hi guys,
There seem to be some sensible and level-headed people on here so I thought it would be a good place to ask for advice.
I recently paid an independent marque specialist £5k to supply and install a freshly-rebuilt engine with some modifications (crank scraper and windage kit) into my classic car (which had a toasted engine from a water pump failure). This work was carried out in June 2009.
The car has been off the road having the A/C system recommissioned, and then I took it to a local specialist for some other work. As part of their general inspection of the car they noticed it was losing coolant - however they could not find a leak, so continued investigating.
To my horror they have told me that the car has a failed head gasket, and is losing coolant into the engine on both banks of the V. It's drivable (just) but definitely a failed head gasket. I immediately checked my invoice from the previous garage, which itemises both a full gasket set and a piston ring set ( as well as £3k worth of labour).
Garage number 2 (a respected specialist as is number 1) today showed me water in the pistons. In their opinion there can be zero doubt that the car has a failed HG and that it has not been replaced. In their opinion the heads never came off and the engine was never rebuilt.
To verify this of course we would have to pull the heads. But we don't have to do that to know that the gasket is leaking - we've already established that for certain.
I intend to demand that the engine is rebuilt with new HG and rings as per original invoice at a garage of my choosing and that garage number 1 pays the cost. Otherwise it's trading standards / small claims court.
Does anyone have any advice for me? Is it absolutely certain that the HG was not replaced? The car has done less than 2000 miles since the "work" was done.
Thanks very much for any advice.
There seem to be some sensible and level-headed people on here so I thought it would be a good place to ask for advice.
I recently paid an independent marque specialist £5k to supply and install a freshly-rebuilt engine with some modifications (crank scraper and windage kit) into my classic car (which had a toasted engine from a water pump failure). This work was carried out in June 2009.
The car has been off the road having the A/C system recommissioned, and then I took it to a local specialist for some other work. As part of their general inspection of the car they noticed it was losing coolant - however they could not find a leak, so continued investigating.
To my horror they have told me that the car has a failed head gasket, and is losing coolant into the engine on both banks of the V. It's drivable (just) but definitely a failed head gasket. I immediately checked my invoice from the previous garage, which itemises both a full gasket set and a piston ring set ( as well as £3k worth of labour).
Garage number 2 (a respected specialist as is number 1) today showed me water in the pistons. In their opinion there can be zero doubt that the car has a failed HG and that it has not been replaced. In their opinion the heads never came off and the engine was never rebuilt.
To verify this of course we would have to pull the heads. But we don't have to do that to know that the gasket is leaking - we've already established that for certain.
I intend to demand that the engine is rebuilt with new HG and rings as per original invoice at a garage of my choosing and that garage number 1 pays the cost. Otherwise it's trading standards / small claims court.
Does anyone have any advice for me? Is it absolutely certain that the HG was not replaced? The car has done less than 2000 miles since the "work" was done.
Thanks very much for any advice.
Edited by barchetta_boy on Saturday 30th January 23:17
Edited by barchetta_boy on Saturday 30th January 23:18
Several questions come to mind here:
1. What warranty came with the engine?
2. Have any specific service requirements been carried out such as having the heads re-torqued or oil changes?
3. You say the engine was "toasted". You say you spent £5K on it and they have not removed the heads or fitted new gaskets. How can a car with a knackered engine repair itself? or was it still knackered when you collected it?
4. Why have you taken the car to a different specialist?
5. You trusted the specialist with your £5K last year, what`s changed?
You need to give the specialist who did the work the opportunity to put it right. They ain`t going to pay someone else to do it.
1. What warranty came with the engine?
2. Have any specific service requirements been carried out such as having the heads re-torqued or oil changes?
3. You say the engine was "toasted". You say you spent £5K on it and they have not removed the heads or fitted new gaskets. How can a car with a knackered engine repair itself? or was it still knackered when you collected it?
4. Why have you taken the car to a different specialist?
5. You trusted the specialist with your £5K last year, what`s changed?
You need to give the specialist who did the work the opportunity to put it right. They ain`t going to pay someone else to do it.
Hammer67 said:
Several questions come to mind here:
1. What warranty came with the engine?
2. Have any specific service requirements been carried out such as having the heads re-torqued or oil changes?
3. You say the engine was "toasted". You say you spent £5K on it and they have not removed the heads or fitted new gaskets. How can a car with a knackered engine repair itself? or was it still knackered when you collected it?
4. Why have you taken the car to a different specialist?
5. You trusted the specialist with your £5K last year, what`s changed?
You need to give the specialist who did the work the opportunity to put it right. They ain`t going to pay someone else to do it.
1) No specific warranty beyond my statutory rights. 1. What warranty came with the engine?
2. Have any specific service requirements been carried out such as having the heads re-torqued or oil changes?
3. You say the engine was "toasted". You say you spent £5K on it and they have not removed the heads or fitted new gaskets. How can a car with a knackered engine repair itself? or was it still knackered when you collected it?
4. Why have you taken the car to a different specialist?
5. You trusted the specialist with your £5K last year, what`s changed?
You need to give the specialist who did the work the opportunity to put it right. They ain`t going to pay someone else to do it.
2) In the 2000 miles since the replacement, rebuilt engine was fitted the cam belt has been retensioned (as per factory schedule) and the oil has been changed. It was during these jobs that it was noticed by garage number 2 that the 'new' HG had failed.
3) Sorry, my original post was not clear. My engine was destroyed by a water pump failure and I paid Garage 1 £5k for a used, replacement, rebuilt engine.
4) I have taken the car to a local specialist to retension the cambelt as per normal procedure, and to attend to a number of small jobs. Garage 1 is a long way away.
5) What's changed is that I have just been shown completely compelling evidence that they did not carry out work that I paid for.
I appreciate your points about "opportunity to put it right" - if they never had the heads off my replacement engine, then that's not negligence or sloppy workmanship, that's fraud. That's the difference. Hence opportunity to put it right = give me my money back, not please have another go at my car.
Well, that`s quite an interesting situation you`ve got there. Now I am not a lawyer but am on the "other side of the fence" as I work in the motor trade and sometimes deal with cases such as this.
In your shoes this is what I would do:
1. Have some new faith in the specialist who did the work and give them the opportunity to make amends. If they refuse or try and fail, the case against them is much stronger. Not giving them the chance weakens your case.
2. Go all legal on them. However, to have any chance of success you really need the 2nd specialist to act as an expert witness for you. Trying to prove that no new parts have been fitted and the heads have not been off will be difficult and an independent expert testifying to this may help.
67
In your shoes this is what I would do:
1. Have some new faith in the specialist who did the work and give them the opportunity to make amends. If they refuse or try and fail, the case against them is much stronger. Not giving them the chance weakens your case.
2. Go all legal on them. However, to have any chance of success you really need the 2nd specialist to act as an expert witness for you. Trying to prove that no new parts have been fitted and the heads have not been off will be difficult and an independent expert testifying to this may help.
67What Hammer has said is good advice.
Unless you have 'Expert status' your opinion is not worth a great deal in court, especially if you are trying to prove a case against someone who knows what they are talking about.
Make copious records of everything and if you can, take photos (although your 'expert' should/would do this as a matter of course).
Unless you have 'Expert status' your opinion is not worth a great deal in court, especially if you are trying to prove a case against someone who knows what they are talking about.
Make copious records of everything and if you can, take photos (although your 'expert' should/would do this as a matter of course).
I think you need to speak to Garage 1. Tell them of the finding of Garage 2 as ask them to remedy the situation. If it was supplied as a rebuilt unit and fitted in June 2009 then it would be reasonable to expect that it would last until January 2010 especially at 5K's.
I appriatte you want it fixing and I am no expert but as far as I know HG don't just wear out especially on both V's. There will most liklely be a reason so Garage 1/2 may have to look into the reasons for the HG going. Has it been overheating, low in coolant and ignition timing out.
I appriatte you want it fixing and I am no expert but as far as I know HG don't just wear out especially on both V's. There will most liklely be a reason so Garage 1/2 may have to look into the reasons for the HG going. Has it been overheating, low in coolant and ignition timing out.
barchetta_boy said:
1) No specific warranty beyond my statutory rights.
3) Sorry, my original post was not clear. My engine was destroyed by a water pump failure and I paid Garage 1 £5k for a used, replacement, rebuilt engine.
It seems to me that you bought a secondhand engine from garage 1 and paid them to to supply and fit. Now you also say that there is no warranty with the supplied engine, why? most come with at least a 3 month warranty.3) Sorry, my original post was not clear. My engine was destroyed by a water pump failure and I paid Garage 1 £5k for a used, replacement, rebuilt engine.
Unless the replacement engine had a warranty I can't see what recourse you have with garage 1. A 2nd hand engine can fail.
Just my view
Are we talking Porsche 928? If so head gasket failure is not uncommon. Is it an early engine with studs locating the heads? If so the studs should really have been replaced with bolts as used on the later engines. And yes, they should have been re-tightened after 500 miles or so.
Surprised that the engine didn't have a worthwhile warranty.
Surprised that the engine didn't have a worthwhile warranty.
Edited by restoman on Saturday 30th January 22:33
Jefftav said:
I think you need to speak to Garage 1. Tell them of the finding of Garage 2 as ask them to remedy the situation. If it was supplied as a rebuilt unit and fitted in June 2009 then it would be reasonable to expect that it would last until January 2010 especially at 5K's.
I appriatte you want it fixing and I am no expert but as far as I know HG don't just wear out especially on both V's. There will most liklely be a reason so Garage 1/2 may have to look into the reasons for the HG going. Has it been overheating, low in coolant and ignition timing out.
Hmm, people aren't picking up on what I consider to be the crux of the matter. This isn't a question of the engine lasting. I appriatte you want it fixing and I am no expert but as far as I know HG don't just wear out especially on both V's. There will most liklely be a reason so Garage 1/2 may have to look into the reasons for the HG going. Has it been overheating, low in coolant and ignition timing out.
I paid for a rebuilt engine. IE, new rings, new head gasket and any and all associated labour (head skimming etc). Garage 2 are telling me that this engine has not been rebuilt - ie that the head gasket is old, and has failed. Garage 2 suspects that the heads have not been removed.
The reason for the HG failing in Garage 2's opinion is that it is 25 yrs old!
Julesx said:
What Hammer has said is good advice.
Unless you have 'Expert status' your opinion is not worth a great deal in court, especially if you are trying to prove a case against someone who knows what they are talking about.
Make copious records of everything and if you can, take photos (although your 'expert' should/would do this as a matter of course).
Garage 2 are perfectly happy to put their opinions in writing, they regard it as perfectly plain that this engine has not had a head gasket in many years.Unless you have 'Expert status' your opinion is not worth a great deal in court, especially if you are trying to prove a case against someone who knows what they are talking about.
Make copious records of everything and if you can, take photos (although your 'expert' should/would do this as a matter of course).
I have an invoice from Garage 1 saying "supply and fit new gasket set, piston rings" etc.
maz8062 said:
barchetta_boy said:
1) No specific warranty beyond my statutory rights.
3) Sorry, my original post was not clear. My engine was destroyed by a water pump failure and I paid Garage 1 £5k for a used, replacement, rebuilt engine.
It seems to me that you bought a secondhand engine from garage 1 and paid them to to supply and fit. Now you also say that there is no warranty with the supplied engine, why? most come with at least a 3 month warranty.3) Sorry, my original post was not clear. My engine was destroyed by a water pump failure and I paid Garage 1 £5k for a used, replacement, rebuilt engine.
Unless the replacement engine had a warranty I can't see what recourse you have with garage 1. A 2nd hand engine can fail.
Just my view
Quote from your opening post:
My engine was destroyed by a water pump failure and I paid Garage 1 £5k for a used, replacement, rebuilt engine.
Would be helpful if you posted clear facts to start with.
However, Your first step has to be to run the allegations past the original garage and see what their response is.
Quote:
If it turns out this engine is not rebuilt, surely I am entitled to my money back. Perfectly plain, no?
So long as you can prove what you actually paid for and that the engine in the car is the one they fitted - presumeably the engine number will be on the invoice or other paperwork?
My engine was destroyed by a water pump failure and I paid Garage 1 £5k for a used, replacement, rebuilt engine.
Would be helpful if you posted clear facts to start with.
However, Your first step has to be to run the allegations past the original garage and see what their response is.
Quote:
If it turns out this engine is not rebuilt, surely I am entitled to my money back. Perfectly plain, no?
So long as you can prove what you actually paid for and that the engine in the car is the one they fitted - presumeably the engine number will be on the invoice or other paperwork?
Edited by restoman on Saturday 30th January 22:59
Edited by restoman on Saturday 30th January 22:59
barchetta_boy said:
As per other posts, I paid them to supply and fit a rebuilt engine. The gasket set and rings are on the invoice. If it turns out this engine is not rebuilt, surely I am entitled to my money back. Perfectly plain, no?
I feel for you and am quite concerned as I think I know who the first specialist is, certainly most others' feedback is nothing but praise.So, can you clarify, does the invoice specify that the "gasket set" is head gaskets, rather than e.g. a sump gasket or is there a part number for reference purposes? Also, does the invoice specify that the head gasket was replaced, or even that the heads were removed?
Although I'm not a mechanical expert, I'm wondering if, as you were having a crank scraper etc. installed, it was possible to replace the piston rings from below i.e. the bottom end of the engine was rebuilt but the heads never came off due to a misunderstanding between yourself and the specialist?
The invoice specifies a gasket set @ £250. This can't be anything other than a head gasket - a sump gasket is about 1/10 the price. The rings are mentioned on the invoice.
In any case I know what was agreed verbally and it included a rebuild.
It's just totally depressing, I've spent £5,000 and now I just feel that the whole job has been bodged.
I fully expect Garage 1 to be friendly and helpful about it and be all "get the car here and we'll sort it out" but I'm afraid that just won't do. I paid for work that wasn't done, I want my money back and we can go our separate ways. (Unless there's some very unlikely explanation for this that I can't think of now).
Thanks for all comments anyway.
In any case I know what was agreed verbally and it included a rebuild.
It's just totally depressing, I've spent £5,000 and now I just feel that the whole job has been bodged.
I fully expect Garage 1 to be friendly and helpful about it and be all "get the car here and we'll sort it out" but I'm afraid that just won't do. I paid for work that wasn't done, I want my money back and we can go our separate ways. (Unless there's some very unlikely explanation for this that I can't think of now).
Thanks for all comments anyway.
We frequently become involved in cases such as this (but on the bodywork side of things).
1) However much you wish it wasn't the case, unfortunately you HAVE to give Garage 1 an opportunity to sort this out. Whether they decide to help in any way is a matter for them.
2) It is advisable NOT to involve Garage 2 OTHER than as a point of reference for rectification costs. THEY WILL BE CONSIDERED TO HAVE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST (whether they have or not).
3) You will need a totally independant firm of 'expert witness' experience to be taken in any way seriously if it heads towards court.
4) You won't be able to have any further work sanctioned on the engine & any associated items until the matter is resolved, as Garage 1 will be within their right to order their own independant inspection.
5) Hopefully Garage 1 will be reasonable & offer to sort the problem out - you would be advised (& it would be a totally acceptable thing to do) to organise an engineer's inspection at their premises at the end of the rectification work & give them plenty of notice on this (I.E make it plain to them as & when an agreement is reached) it would be as much for their benefit as yours.
Hopefully this helps?
Good luck, Al.
1) However much you wish it wasn't the case, unfortunately you HAVE to give Garage 1 an opportunity to sort this out. Whether they decide to help in any way is a matter for them.
2) It is advisable NOT to involve Garage 2 OTHER than as a point of reference for rectification costs. THEY WILL BE CONSIDERED TO HAVE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST (whether they have or not).
3) You will need a totally independant firm of 'expert witness' experience to be taken in any way seriously if it heads towards court.
4) You won't be able to have any further work sanctioned on the engine & any associated items until the matter is resolved, as Garage 1 will be within their right to order their own independant inspection.
5) Hopefully Garage 1 will be reasonable & offer to sort the problem out - you would be advised (& it would be a totally acceptable thing to do) to organise an engineer's inspection at their premises at the end of the rectification work & give them plenty of notice on this (I.E make it plain to them as & when an agreement is reached) it would be as much for their benefit as yours.
Hopefully this helps?
Good luck, Al.
barchetta_boy said:
Hmm, people aren't picking up on what I consider to be the crux of the matter. This isn't a question of the engine lasting.
I paid for a rebuilt engine. IE, new rings, new head gasket and any and all associated labour (head skimming etc). Garage 2 are telling me that this engine has not been rebuilt - ie that the head gasket is old, and has failed. Garage 2 suspects that the heads have not been removed.
The reason for the HG failing in Garage 2's opinion is that it is 25 yrs old!
I paid for a rebuilt engine. IE, new rings, new head gasket and any and all associated labour (head skimming etc). Garage 2 are telling me that this engine has not been rebuilt - ie that the head gasket is old, and has failed. Garage 2 suspects that the heads have not been removed.
The reason for the HG failing in Garage 2's opinion is that it is 25 yrs old!
barchetta_boy said:
It wasn't just for the engine, it was for rebuilding the engine, new lock set, fit some new suspension parts, install a crank scraper in the rebuilt engine, etc etc etc. 60% of the bill was labour.
Ok, I can understand your frustration, especially as it appears that one expert is telling you that you've been wronged by someone else who you considered to be trustworthy. Upsetting is hardly the word for it.Without knowing the car or the engine (other than it's a V) it is very hard to comment sensibly. You clearly thought you were getting a replacement engine which had been completely rebuilt with new rings/head gaskets/heads machined/etc, which I'd class as a remanufactured engine and expect at least a 12 month/10,000 mile warranty.
You mentioned the bill was £3k labour and £2k for parts which I presume includes the s/h engine & it's new replacement parts, the suspension parts, new lock set, etc.
Now if it's a Ford V6 or a Rover V8 then it might just be possible, but if it's something exotic or even remotely collectible, then I start to wonder at this point. For example I know how much it costs to buy & properly rebuild a lowly 4-cylinder Ford/Lotus Twin Cam, and there's not going to be much change out of £2k.
So, what I'm getting to is that although you thought you were getting a remanufactured engine, it sounds very much to me like the garage were fitting a s/h one which they'd checked over and replaced what parts they saw as worn out. I'm just guessing, but unless your invoice actually states "install new head gasket set" then you're struggling with this one. If the engine had been fully overhauled I would expect a very long invoice with lots of replacement parts, valves, seals, bearings, etc, but if it's just a s/h engine which they've checked for compression, oil pressure, leaks, etc, it won't be so detailed - just whatever they had to replace.
But even so I think your first recourse isn't to get heavy, but to simply talk to the original specialist and tell them what's happened. Any genuinely honest garage will be concerned that an engine they have fitted has failed so soon because they do have a professional duty to fit an engine which is fit for purpose (even if it is second hand) and presumably they don't wish to tarnish their reputation.
Whilst I understand your feelings, at this stage it's not reasonable to expect Specialist #1 to pay for repairs to be done elsewhere. The first recourse is to allow them to rectify matters, it's only after they try and fail that you have a case for going elsewhere.
Thanks Al and b2hbm.
The invoice specifies the head gasket.
I will call Garage 1 on Monday morning. So basically what you guys are saying is that if it turns out that they never installed the head gasket they invoiced me for, (or the rings) I just have to suck it up and say, never mind, have another go guys. Try a bit harder this time.
That to me is not acceptable. If they didn't do that work and were happy for me to drive off with a ropey old engine that hadn't been done *as paid for and stated on the invoice*, why the hell should I let them work on the car again? I'll just have my money back thanks. After all, what about the inconvenience and bloody principle of the thing?
Still, I'm angry and pssed off, thanks once again for all advice, I do very much appreciate it.
The invoice specifies the head gasket.
I will call Garage 1 on Monday morning. So basically what you guys are saying is that if it turns out that they never installed the head gasket they invoiced me for, (or the rings) I just have to suck it up and say, never mind, have another go guys. Try a bit harder this time.
That to me is not acceptable. If they didn't do that work and were happy for me to drive off with a ropey old engine that hadn't been done *as paid for and stated on the invoice*, why the hell should I let them work on the car again? I'll just have my money back thanks. After all, what about the inconvenience and bloody principle of the thing?
Still, I'm angry and pssed off, thanks once again for all advice, I do very much appreciate it.
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff