BMW 2002 or Mercedes W115?
Discussion
My current desire is to own one of these cars!
I want to use it as daily transport but really will only cover about 3,000 mile per year.
My criteria is that it must be tax exempt and I have a £5000 budget.
The way I see it, is that if I buy a decent one and look after it, it should look after me!
Alternatively, what other similar car would fit the bill? I have run out of ideas!!
Am I being unrealistic and asking for more trouble than I realise?
Your opinions please.
Thanks
Jules
I want to use it as daily transport but really will only cover about 3,000 mile per year.
My criteria is that it must be tax exempt and I have a £5000 budget.
The way I see it, is that if I buy a decent one and look after it, it should look after me!
Alternatively, what other similar car would fit the bill? I have run out of ideas!!
Am I being unrealistic and asking for more trouble than I realise?
Your opinions please.
Thanks
Jules
Both a good and reliable. Mercedes quite a lot bigger and, probably "cooler" in a media set type way. Both fine for every day. BMW smaller and much more sporting to drive (by reputation - I've never driven the Merc). There is some suggestion that a 2002 tii might need some more specialist care on the fuel injection system. As with all old cars will need to keep on top of rust, especially on BMW.
Hello Jules,
You have made a good choice, whichever way you go. I have owned and restored many of these cars, but you should be aware that they are quite different in character.
The BMW is a terrific car to drive, a real driver's car, and can be made very quick indeed. Where it really excels is on a twisty road; the handling is superb.
The model range starts with the 1602, but the one you want is the 2002. This comes in several guises, from the standard car with a single downdraught carb, onto the Ti, usually with twin Solex or Weber 40s, then the Tii with Bosch mechanical injection. There are also rarer Touring(estate) and Cabriolet versions, although these usually command higher prices. Finally the ultimate in terms of performance was the Turbo, only available in left hand drive, and now brutally expensive.
The models changed around '73 with different front grille, rear lamps and interior trim: unfortunately they also changed the suspension height, geometry and the state of tune of the injected models, and they were not as good as the early cars.
Factory options included big valve head and high lift cam on the Ti, Konis or Bilsteins, low profile Continental radials, twin headlight kit and a 5 speed ZF 'box.
I had a Ti from '71 on with the big valve head and twin 40 Webers, Konis and Continentals. It was quicker to 100 than my 3.8 E type and was far, far quicker on corners. It was a fabulous car, and gave me absolutely no trouble whatever; not even a bulb failure!
The Tii with injection was also a flying machine, but you have to know how to set it up proerly to get the best from it. In my opinion, and from my experience, the one to have is the Ti.
The Mercedes is a cruiser, a great motorway car. Beautifully put together and again available with quite a few options.
They start from a 2 or 2.2 litre single Stromberg carb engine, to the 2.5, 6 cylinder in either twin carb, single 4 barrel carb, mechanical or D Jet electronic injection form. This is followed by the 2.8 in either single or twin cam form again with carbs or D Jet, or best of all, K Jet Ci injection.
Again my experience has shown that the best one of these was the 2.8 single cam with K Jet, but you might have a job finding one as they now getting pretty scarce.
The thing to watch with either the BMW or Mercedes is rust in the load bearing structures. This is vital in the Mercedes as it is pillarless and totally depends on the floor pan for rigidity.
The advantage with the Mercedes is the vast amount of room both in the cabin and the boot, permitting long distance holiday touring in absolute comfort, and the ride quality.
Good luck finding one, and if you do, stick some pictures up and let us see it.
J.
You have made a good choice, whichever way you go. I have owned and restored many of these cars, but you should be aware that they are quite different in character.
The BMW is a terrific car to drive, a real driver's car, and can be made very quick indeed. Where it really excels is on a twisty road; the handling is superb.
The model range starts with the 1602, but the one you want is the 2002. This comes in several guises, from the standard car with a single downdraught carb, onto the Ti, usually with twin Solex or Weber 40s, then the Tii with Bosch mechanical injection. There are also rarer Touring(estate) and Cabriolet versions, although these usually command higher prices. Finally the ultimate in terms of performance was the Turbo, only available in left hand drive, and now brutally expensive.
The models changed around '73 with different front grille, rear lamps and interior trim: unfortunately they also changed the suspension height, geometry and the state of tune of the injected models, and they were not as good as the early cars.
Factory options included big valve head and high lift cam on the Ti, Konis or Bilsteins, low profile Continental radials, twin headlight kit and a 5 speed ZF 'box.
I had a Ti from '71 on with the big valve head and twin 40 Webers, Konis and Continentals. It was quicker to 100 than my 3.8 E type and was far, far quicker on corners. It was a fabulous car, and gave me absolutely no trouble whatever; not even a bulb failure!
The Tii with injection was also a flying machine, but you have to know how to set it up proerly to get the best from it. In my opinion, and from my experience, the one to have is the Ti.
The Mercedes is a cruiser, a great motorway car. Beautifully put together and again available with quite a few options.
They start from a 2 or 2.2 litre single Stromberg carb engine, to the 2.5, 6 cylinder in either twin carb, single 4 barrel carb, mechanical or D Jet electronic injection form. This is followed by the 2.8 in either single or twin cam form again with carbs or D Jet, or best of all, K Jet Ci injection.
Again my experience has shown that the best one of these was the 2.8 single cam with K Jet, but you might have a job finding one as they now getting pretty scarce.
The thing to watch with either the BMW or Mercedes is rust in the load bearing structures. This is vital in the Mercedes as it is pillarless and totally depends on the floor pan for rigidity.
The advantage with the Mercedes is the vast amount of room both in the cabin and the boot, permitting long distance holiday touring in absolute comfort, and the ride quality.
Good luck finding one, and if you do, stick some pictures up and let us see it.
J.
Thanks for the replies, especialy yours, Jith!
I have done a little research and am at the moment not finding many for sale. Patience, I know!
I am trying to get away from 'racing around as if my pants are on fire' style of driving. Hence my desire to 'waft' around in an old Merc!
Having said that I understand that the 2002 has a really nice ride with the bonus that it can be made to go very well indeed. Probably not a real 'wafting machine'!
Interesting that you say the 2002Ti is preferable to the Tii. There seems to have been more of these models for sale last year than the Tii.
I suppose I should try one before I decide against the Merc.
Anyone here own one at the moment?
Thanks
Jules
I have done a little research and am at the moment not finding many for sale. Patience, I know!
I am trying to get away from 'racing around as if my pants are on fire' style of driving. Hence my desire to 'waft' around in an old Merc!
Having said that I understand that the 2002 has a really nice ride with the bonus that it can be made to go very well indeed. Probably not a real 'wafting machine'!
Interesting that you say the 2002Ti is preferable to the Tii. There seems to have been more of these models for sale last year than the Tii.
I suppose I should try one before I decide against the Merc.
Anyone here own one at the moment?
Thanks
Jules
Hi,
Had an 02Tii from 1989 to 1994.
Superb car great fun, kids think its a Lada!!
Fit a Janspeed manifold, Koni shocks and it'll really impress.
On the downside, boot lid, bonnet edges rust. Water seems to get down into the front bulkhead area and corrode through into the upper front footwells a bit too high up to weld easily.
Also boot floor rust.
Sills usually ok as is floor. Interior trim will wear but replaceable (3 series stuff fits)
The orange ones are faster.
The Kugelfisher injection is a pub talk nightmare but actually easy to set up if you follow the instructions and there isn't too much wear in the linkages
Rocker shafts wear about 100k miles head off for a rebuild.
OK tow car for light stuff but the long overhang can create a problem with heavy stuff (ie a Mk 2 Escort autocross car on a trailer steers the BMW......!
as an after thought, I always thought the Ti was only available as an import and never sold in UK officially. Many could be ordinary cars or Tiis with carbs fitted - just a thought.
Have fun
Tony H
Had an 02Tii from 1989 to 1994.
Superb car great fun, kids think its a Lada!!
Fit a Janspeed manifold, Koni shocks and it'll really impress.
On the downside, boot lid, bonnet edges rust. Water seems to get down into the front bulkhead area and corrode through into the upper front footwells a bit too high up to weld easily.
Also boot floor rust.
Sills usually ok as is floor. Interior trim will wear but replaceable (3 series stuff fits)
The orange ones are faster.
The Kugelfisher injection is a pub talk nightmare but actually easy to set up if you follow the instructions and there isn't too much wear in the linkages
Rocker shafts wear about 100k miles head off for a rebuild.
OK tow car for light stuff but the long overhang can create a problem with heavy stuff (ie a Mk 2 Escort autocross car on a trailer steers the BMW......!
as an after thought, I always thought the Ti was only available as an import and never sold in UK officially. Many could be ordinary cars or Tiis with carbs fitted - just a thought.
Have fun
Tony H
OP, are you looking for a 2 or 4 door car? A W115 is the model designation for 4 door, 4 cylinder cars. Everything else is a W114 (with the exception of the 5 cylinder diesel), ie coupes and 6 cylinder saloons. £4-5K would get you an excellent W115, you'd need to pay a lot more to get a coupe in similiar condition. If you're not doing many miles, fuel consumption might not be a problem, but don't expect any more than 20 MPG from a 6 cylinder petrol.
Edited by 74merc on Monday 25th January 13:40
Sadly, I'm not keen on the Touring model!
From what I've seen a good 2002Tii seems out of my budget.
I think that he W115 range has caught my eye and seems a little more affordable (if I can find one!)
I fancy a simple 2.0, four cylinder, four door, automatic in a dark colour.
Anyone had any experience of such a beast?
Jules
From what I've seen a good 2002Tii seems out of my budget.
I think that he W115 range has caught my eye and seems a little more affordable (if I can find one!)
I fancy a simple 2.0, four cylinder, four door, automatic in a dark colour.
Anyone had any experience of such a beast?
Jules
I've got a 4 door, 4 cylinder 2.2 W115 in a dark colour (dunkel rot - dark red).
I picked it up last year for £3100. It's got a great history and was serviced by a main dealer until recently. There are invoices for over £10K to support this.
There are lots of good ones still around but many more dogs. Rust is the biggest issue as you would expect. Check the following area:
Engine bulkhead especially around the bonnet hinges.
Inner and outer sills particularly around the jacking points.
Boot floor.
Bottom of doors.
With the engine running, run the heater blower. If any condensation appears on the windscreen, the plenum chamber is rusting and allowing water into the heater.
If the interior is bone dry then all is well. The mats can be easily lifted to look at the condition of the floor.
Mechanically they are strong and easy to work on. Parts are readily available from dealers and are mostly reasonably priced. A good one is a great car but a bad one with be a complete money pit. Take your time, view as many as possible and pick the one with the least rust.
I picked it up last year for £3100. It's got a great history and was serviced by a main dealer until recently. There are invoices for over £10K to support this.
There are lots of good ones still around but many more dogs. Rust is the biggest issue as you would expect. Check the following area:
Engine bulkhead especially around the bonnet hinges.
Inner and outer sills particularly around the jacking points.
Boot floor.
Bottom of doors.
With the engine running, run the heater blower. If any condensation appears on the windscreen, the plenum chamber is rusting and allowing water into the heater.
If the interior is bone dry then all is well. The mats can be easily lifted to look at the condition of the floor.
Mechanically they are strong and easy to work on. Parts are readily available from dealers and are mostly reasonably priced. A good one is a great car but a bad one with be a complete money pit. Take your time, view as many as possible and pick the one with the least rust.
Julesx said:
Sadly, I'm not keen on the Touring model!
From what I've seen a good 2002Tii seems out of my budget.
I think that he W115 range has caught my eye and seems a little more affordable (if I can find one!)
I fancy a simple 2.0, four cylinder, four door, automatic in a dark colour.
Anyone had any experience of such a beast?
Jules
Jules, for your reference, the marketed name for these models was the /8, and you would simply apply the engine size before that, i.e. 220/8.From what I've seen a good 2002Tii seems out of my budget.
I think that he W115 range has caught my eye and seems a little more affordable (if I can find one!)
I fancy a simple 2.0, four cylinder, four door, automatic in a dark colour.
Anyone had any experience of such a beast?
Jules
I have found what looks like a very straight old car on flea bay, but it goes tonight, so I hope you get this. It's a 220 with a manual 'box and a single Stromberg carb. This car will happily run on unleaded and if you service the carb, fit an electronic distributor and a 5 speed 'box you will return 30 mpg on the motorway no problem. The distributor and 'box from an early W123 220 are virtually a straight fit.
It looks as if it needs some tidying but is so original and not expensive it's worth a shot. In fact if I didn't have the 500 Coupe just now I would probably have a go at it myself.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MERCEDES-220-BLUE-1972_W0QQi...
Edited by jith on Wednesday 27th January 17:47
Jith
Thanks for the link. I checked this thread when the car had about 55 minutes left to run on E Bay!
My 'windy gene' kicked in!I didn't bid! It did look quite nice and fairly sound but I would have liked to either seen it or at least have some close up pics. Still, it only went for £1650............maybe I should have gambled!!
It does give me a ball park figure to base future cars on.
I know later model Mercs are preferable with an automatic gearbox. Am I right to assume that the earlier /8 models were also better as an auto? I did have a 1992 200 TE with a manual box and it wasn't too bad until I tried an auto!
Thanks
Thanks for the link. I checked this thread when the car had about 55 minutes left to run on E Bay!
My 'windy gene' kicked in!I didn't bid! It did look quite nice and fairly sound but I would have liked to either seen it or at least have some close up pics. Still, it only went for £1650............maybe I should have gambled!!
It does give me a ball park figure to base future cars on.
I know later model Mercs are preferable with an automatic gearbox. Am I right to assume that the earlier /8 models were also better as an auto? I did have a 1992 200 TE with a manual box and it wasn't too bad until I tried an auto!
Thanks
74merc said:
I've got manual and auto 114/115s and to be honest they're both good. Luckily they have a hand operated parking brake on the dashboard, so it make driving the manual much easier.
This is very true, both manual and autos are very reliable. Although I have to say that in all the years I serviced these Mercs, I never once had to rebuild a manual 'box.My main reason for suggesting the manual however is purely from the economy point of view, particularly if you fit a 5 speed.
Jules, at the end of the day of course, it comes down to personal preference and taste.
The only cars I have ever liked with autos are Mercs, particularly my 500; the torque is awesome and the kickdown mental! But the gearing equates to around only 2100 rpm at 80 MPH, so if I cruise at 60-65 it returns 30 MPG! Incredible for a 5 litre.
Well if you fancy a project! They are wonderful little cars and currently on my wish list.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C133346/
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C133346/
bmw2002 said:
Well if you fancy a project! They are wonderful little cars and currently on my wish list.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C133346/
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm seems a lot of money for car parked in a french fieldhttp://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C133346/
chard said:
bmw2002 said:
Well if you fancy a project! They are wonderful little cars and currently on my wish list.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C133346/
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm seems a lot of money for car parked in a french fieldhttp://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C133346/
bmw2002 said:
chard said:
bmw2002 said:
Well if you fancy a project! They are wonderful little cars and currently on my wish list.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C133346/
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm seems a lot of money for car parked in a french fieldhttp://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C133346/
bmw2002 said:
Well if you fancy a project! They are wonderful little cars and currently on my wish list.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C133346/
Mmmm...................I saw that one earlier in the week. I'm not that brave I'm afraid! http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C133346/
jith said:
74merc said:
This is very true, both manual and autos are very reliable. Although I have to say that in all the years I serviced these Mercs, I never once had to rebuild a manual 'box.
My main reason for suggesting the manual however is purely from the economy point of view, particularly if you fit a 5 speed.
Jules, at the end of the day of course, it comes down to personal preference and taste.
The only cars I have ever liked with autos are Mercs, particularly my 500; the torque is awesome and the kickdown mental! But the gearing equates to around only 2100 rpm at 80 MPH, so if I cruise at 60-65 it returns 30 MPG! Incredible for a 5 litre.
Good point about the economy. I don't do many miles (around 3,000 a year)so economy is not top of my list but, money is money at the the end of the day! Having said that 30 mpg from a 5 litre is very good. I only get around 27 mpg around town in my 1989 VW Golf GTi 8v, which is not great!!My main reason for suggesting the manual however is purely from the economy point of view, particularly if you fit a 5 speed.
Jules, at the end of the day of course, it comes down to personal preference and taste.
The only cars I have ever liked with autos are Mercs, particularly my 500; the torque is awesome and the kickdown mental! But the gearing equates to around only 2100 rpm at 80 MPH, so if I cruise at 60-65 it returns 30 MPG! Incredible for a 5 litre.
Well. After much deliberation I could not find decent 2002 that I could afford so I went with my other choice and purchased this -
It has previously been used for 'light' rallying such as 'Economy Runs' and a few 'LeJog' rallies. It comes with Brantz rally timers and stopwatch. fire extinguishers and some not subtle spotlights!!
It has previously been used for 'light' rallying such as 'Economy Runs' and a few 'LeJog' rallies. It comes with Brantz rally timers and stopwatch. fire extinguishers and some not subtle spotlights!!
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