Rapier fastback mods for rallying
Discussion
Hi all
Just acquired a 1972 Sunbeam Rapier fastback.
I am prepearing it for historic rallying.
Does anyone have any info on either original rallying mods OR interchangeable bits from other cars that may help.
I am particularly interested in suspension mods and limited slip diffs
Nick
PS got a Holbay engine already
Just acquired a 1972 Sunbeam Rapier fastback.
I am prepearing it for historic rallying.
Does anyone have any info on either original rallying mods OR interchangeable bits from other cars that may help.
I am particularly interested in suspension mods and limited slip diffs
Nick
PS got a Holbay engine already
Hi Setch, congrats on your new purchase 
I saw your car on fleabay as well; do you really want to rally that....?.....you sure??? There has been a huge amount of work put into that car and just to see it flattened against a Douglas Pine.... "quelle domage"!
There's a farmstead about a mile away from where I live, here in "straw chewin Suffolk" where a fellow petrolhead man has a field of Hunter's and Minx with no end of Holbay engines and spare bodyshells, I think there are in excess of sixty, different Rapier, Hunter and Rootes products.
I perchanced to meet with him,(incidentally at 80yrs+ he's still a very good and fast driver in his 1725 Hunter!)and asked him what led to his collection- he laughed and asked if I knew a chap called Andrew Cowan? Of course I knew the name and the story and he told me that he thought back then in the 70's that perhaps if he collected similar cars rather than Lamborghini's (his words!) then his pension would be suitable. Ironically when I see the price of Mk2 Escorts that I used to sit in the navigator's seat in the early 80's, he may just be on the cusp of realising his dream, alas currently they're sinking upto their sills in Suffolk mud!
Back to your own Rapier; why not keep it as is and get a Hunter that you can happily roll down a ditch and not fret too much about the consequences? - just my thoughts - no offence!
I saw your car on fleabay as well; do you really want to rally that....?.....you sure??? There has been a huge amount of work put into that car and just to see it flattened against a Douglas Pine.... "quelle domage"! There's a farmstead about a mile away from where I live, here in "straw chewin Suffolk" where a fellow petrolhead man has a field of Hunter's and Minx with no end of Holbay engines and spare bodyshells, I think there are in excess of sixty, different Rapier, Hunter and Rootes products.
I perchanced to meet with him,(incidentally at 80yrs+ he's still a very good and fast driver in his 1725 Hunter!)and asked him what led to his collection- he laughed and asked if I knew a chap called Andrew Cowan? Of course I knew the name and the story and he told me that he thought back then in the 70's that perhaps if he collected similar cars rather than Lamborghini's (his words!) then his pension would be suitable. Ironically when I see the price of Mk2 Escorts that I used to sit in the navigator's seat in the early 80's, he may just be on the cusp of realising his dream, alas currently they're sinking upto their sills in Suffolk mud!
Back to your own Rapier; why not keep it as is and get a Hunter that you can happily roll down a ditch and not fret too much about the consequences? - just my thoughts - no offence!
Forgot to say..my lads get involved with Gravity Racers - and whilst at an event last year in mid-Wales my attention was drawn to a beautifully engineered racer that had a rear suspension set-up not dismiliar to my own Elan. After much cajoling from a very modest man, it turns out he used to prepare the Rootes Rally cars with Davenport before he joined ARG and the 6R4 programme - hope you enjoy the pics! ![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/8nDfIzwl.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/v/S2mI5bbl.jpg" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/S2mI5bbl.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/v/b74bXIlT.jpg" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/b74bXIlT.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/v/MPizpW8G.jpg" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/MPizpW8G.jpg)
Takes me back. One of my cousins used to road rally a Hunter in the late 70's and early 80's then a few years later his wife to be was given the Rapier her parents had owned from new, and he was intending to transfered the comp bits over to the Rapier as the Hunter shell had got very tired. Marriage got in the way and the project lay dormant for a bit, but then the Rapier got totalled in a road accident.
The Hunter comp bits (incl some original Rootes comp parts and including a brand new Safety Devices cage) lay in his garage for about the next 25 years up until they moved house 3 years ago.
I can remember he was finding it hard to get comp bits for it nearly 30 years ago, so I would imagine you are going to find it even harder today, and may have to resort to self fabrication of parts or custom manufacture maybe.
It won't set the world on fire in terms of performance, as they are quite heavy and not that powerfull but they are tough and perhaps better suited to longer type events rather than sprint type rallys, as per originally when the Hunter one the 68 London-Sydney mararthon.
Good to see someone taking a left-field approach and take-on something less common
The Hunter comp bits (incl some original Rootes comp parts and including a brand new Safety Devices cage) lay in his garage for about the next 25 years up until they moved house 3 years ago.
I can remember he was finding it hard to get comp bits for it nearly 30 years ago, so I would imagine you are going to find it even harder today, and may have to resort to self fabrication of parts or custom manufacture maybe.
It won't set the world on fire in terms of performance, as they are quite heavy and not that powerfull but they are tough and perhaps better suited to longer type events rather than sprint type rallys, as per originally when the Hunter one the 68 London-Sydney mararthon.
Good to see someone taking a left-field approach and take-on something less common
aeropilot said:
Takes me back. One of my cousins used to road rally a Hunter in the late 70's and early 80's then a few years later his wife to be was given the Rapier her parents had owned from new, and he was intending to transfered the comp bits over to the Rapier as the Hunter shell had got very tired. Marriage got in the way and the project lay dormant for a bit, but then the Rapier got totalled in a road accident.
The Hunter comp bits (incl some original Rootes comp parts and including a brand new Safety Devices cage) lay in his garage for about the next 25 years up until they moved house 3 years ago.
I can remember he was finding it hard to get comp bits for it nearly 30 years ago, so I would imagine you are going to find it even harder today, and may have to resort to self fabrication of parts or custom manufacture maybe.
It won't set the world on fire in terms of performance, as they are quite heavy and not that powerfull but they are tough and perhaps better suited to longer type events rather than sprint type rallys, as per originally when the Hunter one the 68 London-Sydney mararthon.
Good to see someone taking a left-field approach and take-on something less common
HiThe Hunter comp bits (incl some original Rootes comp parts and including a brand new Safety Devices cage) lay in his garage for about the next 25 years up until they moved house 3 years ago.
I can remember he was finding it hard to get comp bits for it nearly 30 years ago, so I would imagine you are going to find it even harder today, and may have to resort to self fabrication of parts or custom manufacture maybe.
It won't set the world on fire in terms of performance, as they are quite heavy and not that powerfull but they are tough and perhaps better suited to longer type events rather than sprint type rallys, as per originally when the Hunter one the 68 London-Sydney mararthon.
Good to see someone taking a left-field approach and take-on something less common
Appreciate the 'left field' approach, my thoughts exactly. Couldn't resist the twin 40's and above all else RWD. Power to weight ratio is against me but fun is the order of the day. I have the original deep dish rostyles and will fit the correct tyres for historic rallying.
With historic rallying it is mostly navigational with a few 'tests' thrown in. The option of tree hugging is always there though, but to be avoided at all costs. A friend of mine had a meeting with a 1 ton straw bail recently, much to the surprise of his Imp...all sorted now though.
Mods need to remain 'evidence based' to keep the sport and scrutineers happy so I am limited.
I will be adding a custom cage, bucket seats and 4 points etc...the internal trim has to remain intact.
To this end I feel happy that this Rapier is returnable to its natural state if need be but also that ist has a purpose in life (well my life anyway)
Its a bit catching as I have only just finshed an Imp for myself and son...campaigning in 2010.
Edited by Setch993 on Sunday 1st November 17:08
exactly which championship do you want to do?
for most historic road rallies with a few "tests" you will need an MSA dispensation to have more than two chokes. This doesn't seem to be a problem - you also need dispensation to run over 2 litres and more than four cylinders but there are several TRs, 911s and 240zs that all regularly compete in the HRCR Clubmans championship which obviously don't conform. My understanding is that this tends to be more difficult for night rallies.
Start by joining the HRCR and going to one of their training days. They will look over the car and suggest any mods. Much better than trying to interpret the blue book on your own. More importantly they will train your navigator.
If you want to do well the only thing you really need is the correct type (differnt cahmpionships allow different ones) of device for measuring distence.
for most historic road rallies with a few "tests" you will need an MSA dispensation to have more than two chokes. This doesn't seem to be a problem - you also need dispensation to run over 2 litres and more than four cylinders but there are several TRs, 911s and 240zs that all regularly compete in the HRCR Clubmans championship which obviously don't conform. My understanding is that this tends to be more difficult for night rallies.
Start by joining the HRCR and going to one of their training days. They will look over the car and suggest any mods. Much better than trying to interpret the blue book on your own. More importantly they will train your navigator.
If you want to do well the only thing you really need is the correct type (differnt cahmpionships allow different ones) of device for measuring distence.
BMWChris said:
you also need dispensation to run over 2 litres and more than four cylinders but there are several TRs, 911s and 240zs that all regularly compete in the HRCR Clubmans championship which obviously don't conform.
It's less than 2 litres and doesn't have more than 4 cylinders 
But does have more than 2 chokes.
Edited by aeropilot on Monday 2nd November 13:12
aeropilot said:
BMWChris said:
you also need dispensation to run over 2 litres and more than four cylinders but there are several TRs, 911s and 240zs that all regularly compete in the HRCR Clubmans championship which obviously don't conform.
It's less than 2 litres and doesn't have more than 4 cylinders Edited by aeropilot on Monday 2nd November 13:12
BMWChris said:
aeropilot said:
BMWChris said:
you also need dispensation to run over 2 litres and more than four cylinders but there are several TRs, 911s and 240zs that all regularly compete in the HRCR Clubmans championship which obviously don't conform.
It's less than 2 litres and doesn't have more than 4 cylinders Edited by aeropilot on Monday 2nd November 13:12
I don't do the more extreme rallies so I'm not 100% but as regards go faster modifications for more stagey type rallies, they usualy require very strong evidence that something was done in period - e.g. documentation from the time.
As I understand it there are lots of modifications that everybody knows were done in period but since the teams didn't write down, say, that they were using disks of a certain size, you can't use them.
Since Rapiers weren't really rallied in period, the chances of finding some documentation allowing modifications are very low.
But I get the impression your are interested in road rallies with a few tests. To be allowed to do this you don't need to do anything to the car but you won't do well without something along the lines of a Brantz (although we once managed to finish mid table without one).
Modifications to make the car faster might allow you to pick-up a few seconds over each test. With maybe 10 tests per event. One navigational cock-up on the road will easily cost hundreds of seconds.
My advice would be to make sure the car is reliable, fit a trip, and enjoy it. It is great fun!
As I understand it there are lots of modifications that everybody knows were done in period but since the teams didn't write down, say, that they were using disks of a certain size, you can't use them.
Since Rapiers weren't really rallied in period, the chances of finding some documentation allowing modifications are very low.
But I get the impression your are interested in road rallies with a few tests. To be allowed to do this you don't need to do anything to the car but you won't do well without something along the lines of a Brantz (although we once managed to finish mid table without one).
Modifications to make the car faster might allow you to pick-up a few seconds over each test. With maybe 10 tests per event. One navigational cock-up on the road will easily cost hundreds of seconds.
My advice would be to make sure the car is reliable, fit a trip, and enjoy it. It is great fun!
aeropilot said:
BMWChris said:
you also need dispensation to run over 2 litres and more than four cylinders but there are several TRs, 911s and 240zs that all regularly compete in the HRCR Clubmans championship which obviously don't conform.
It's less than 2 litres and doesn't have more than 4 cylinders But does have more than 2 chokes.
Edited by aeropilot on Monday 2nd November 13:12
Velocemitch et al have been v helpful on this point and I have great guidance.
Glad the Rapier has attracted interest, I will keep this thread updated with pictures as I progress...not in a rush though as the Imp will keep us 'applied'.
Nick
It's always a cause of confusion the rules on road rallies, but just for the benefit of those reading the thread, I will attempt a quick explanation without cocking it up this time..
this might be over simplification but basicaly there are three permits the MSA have for what is termed road rallying in the UK.
A 'Road Rally Permit'
A 'Historic rally Permit'
and a 'Navigational rally permit'
organisors apply for which ever permit they think suitable and sometimes run two events a Historic and Road Rally at the same time over the same route.
For a Road Rally, if your car was built after First of Jan 1968, you cannot have more than two chokes, more than one cam per bank (Unless fuel injected from new), and more than 4 cylinders. You can however apply for a waiver from the MSA for any or all of these. Pre 68 cars are exempt from this, basicaly because an Escort Twin Cam didn't exist before 68!.
In a Road Rally if the event is run at night, and 90% are, you will NOT get a waiver, no point in asking. However for a Historic Road Rally which runs in daylight hours you WILL get a waiver and many people do run Cars of that spec, including me.
Now comes the tricky bit, many Historic events have a night section and a day section, if they are running on a Road Rally, or Historic Rally permit no waiver. If however they run the night section on a Navigational permit you are fine. On a Nav permit there are no rules against the type of car as the event is deemed to be a test of navigation. Many organisers will not permit Turbo's or 4WD though, to stop the Scoobies etc.
In practical terms there isn't much differance on the events themselves though a Nav permit rally has to have some element of it's navigation kept secret untill the start, whereas a Road rally can be fully plotted before you start.
As BMWChris quite rightly pointed out for the majority of events a good trip meter (Brantz perhaps) is vital, without one you are guessing and this is a VERY precise sport in terms of it's timing. For the tests a Rapier is always going to be a bit cumbersome, your Imp will be better, though on the road sections something torquey, spacious and practical like the Rapier would be just the ticket.
Either way it's all great fun and I'm looking forward to seeing the Rapier out next year.
this might be over simplification but basicaly there are three permits the MSA have for what is termed road rallying in the UK.
A 'Road Rally Permit'
A 'Historic rally Permit'
and a 'Navigational rally permit'
organisors apply for which ever permit they think suitable and sometimes run two events a Historic and Road Rally at the same time over the same route.
For a Road Rally, if your car was built after First of Jan 1968, you cannot have more than two chokes, more than one cam per bank (Unless fuel injected from new), and more than 4 cylinders. You can however apply for a waiver from the MSA for any or all of these. Pre 68 cars are exempt from this, basicaly because an Escort Twin Cam didn't exist before 68!.
In a Road Rally if the event is run at night, and 90% are, you will NOT get a waiver, no point in asking. However for a Historic Road Rally which runs in daylight hours you WILL get a waiver and many people do run Cars of that spec, including me.
Now comes the tricky bit, many Historic events have a night section and a day section, if they are running on a Road Rally, or Historic Rally permit no waiver. If however they run the night section on a Navigational permit you are fine. On a Nav permit there are no rules against the type of car as the event is deemed to be a test of navigation. Many organisers will not permit Turbo's or 4WD though, to stop the Scoobies etc.
In practical terms there isn't much differance on the events themselves though a Nav permit rally has to have some element of it's navigation kept secret untill the start, whereas a Road rally can be fully plotted before you start.
As BMWChris quite rightly pointed out for the majority of events a good trip meter (Brantz perhaps) is vital, without one you are guessing and this is a VERY precise sport in terms of it's timing. For the tests a Rapier is always going to be a bit cumbersome, your Imp will be better, though on the road sections something torquey, spacious and practical like the Rapier would be just the ticket.
Either way it's all great fun and I'm looking forward to seeing the Rapier out next year.
Setch993 said:
aeropilot said:
BMWChris said:
you also need dispensation to run over 2 litres and more than four cylinders but there are several TRs, 911s and 240zs that all regularly compete in the HRCR Clubmans championship which obviously don't conform.
It's less than 2 litres and doesn't have more than 4 cylinders But does have more than 2 chokes.
Edited by aeropilot on Monday 2nd November 13:12
Velocemitch et al have been v helpful on this point and I have great guidance.
Glad the Rapier has attracted interest, I will keep this thread updated with pictures as I progress...not in a rush though as the Imp will keep us 'applied'.
Nick
Chris
Chris
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