MG Midget - Serious Upgrading - Ideas??
Discussion
Hi, just bought an MG Midget for the bargain price of £300, with 2000 mile old reconditioned triumph engine, although needs new exhaust, all major bodywork rusty to holey, minilites a little rusty etc list goes on. Anyways starting to get the idea of putting a new engine in, a recon 1600 x-flow bored out to 1700, and hooking it up to a series 9 ford gearbox, any ideas on if this will work alright? Also thinking of replacing the rear leaf springs with dampers, lower it. And new bigger vented discs at front, but is it worth also doing a rear brake conversion or just overhaul the drums? Also bodywork wise, mine is shot in many places on the outside but relatively sound underneath, so was thinking of replacing it with rust proof, or at least thats my excuse, fibreglass panels. Plus they seem easy and cheap enough to get from Peter May? compared to buying remoulded or reconditioned metal panels. Any ideas or suggestions would be helpful.
What do you intend to do with it once its finished - if it's just road use then it's not a concern but if you want to do certain motorsporting activities (sprints, hills or trials) swapping engines, transmissions etc has a fairly serious eligibity impact.
MGs are not really my thing but I used to passenger on classics in a X-flow powered Midget. The weak point even with the power from the original A-series engine was the rear axle, that was replaced with a Ford (Anglia I think for the correct track), then it started blowing gearboxes, which led to the Escort engine and box. I've seen Midgets break halfshafts just on PCTs (driving around grassy fields) so you might want to think about upgrading the rear axle if you want to put more power through it.
MGs are not really my thing but I used to passenger on classics in a X-flow powered Midget. The weak point even with the power from the original A-series engine was the rear axle, that was replaced with a Ford (Anglia I think for the correct track), then it started blowing gearboxes, which led to the Escort engine and box. I've seen Midgets break halfshafts just on PCTs (driving around grassy fields) so you might want to think about upgrading the rear axle if you want to put more power through it.
Plan is to turn it in to a very nice roadcar, tart it up, make it fast. Although i do have a tendancy to rag cars around due to delivery job, so axle upgrade may be sensible. Would it make uprating to rear discs any easier? As i said it was a cheap car in the first place, but looking to keep the costs as low as possible, but get a very good spec, i also have very little experience, so hoping to work it all out and find all the parts in advance and pay a local mechanic to come and help install it all in one go to keep costs down. So any ideas on reclaim parts ideas would be most helpful? For instance would the 1600 x flow with series 9 gear box and ford rear axle combo work well/ok? If i get recon engine (Ebay the likes), and salvage box and axle from scrapyard if available. Also what options have i got on brakes? was thinking of upgrading to 4 pot callipers and 10.5" discs at front and overhauling the rear drums, Cost of new parts £600 and thats not putting discs on rear as originally intended, worth doing with the power upgrade? Is there a cheap alternative bolt on to make putting discs on both sets worthwhile/affordable?
What engine does it have - Triumph or A-series?
If it's A-series, personally I'd scrap it and recycle the mechanicals into a Westfield Eleven.
Otherwise, have a look at http://www.mgcars.org.uk/frontline/ for a few ideas.
eta: Doh! Should have read your first post properly. Triumph engine? That rules out the Westfield option, then.
If it's A-series, personally I'd scrap it and recycle the mechanicals into a Westfield Eleven.
Otherwise, have a look at http://www.mgcars.org.uk/frontline/ for a few ideas.
eta: Doh! Should have read your first post properly. Triumph engine? That rules out the Westfield option, then.
Edited by Sam_68 on Tuesday 8th September 20:03
I bought a 1979 1500 Midget last year and had similar ideas of modifying / altering the car for fast road use . Having rectified the faults (overheating and leaky diff) , got the mot , serviced the car and started using it , I soon realised that the true value of the car is in it`s character , not it`s performance .
I`ve stuck some roundels on the side ( at the request of my young son ) and left the rest standard and enjoy more attention than any Porsche or Mercedes I`ve had . All thisfor under £1000 (!) .
Fab little car .
I`ve stuck some roundels on the side ( at the request of my young son ) and left the rest standard and enjoy more attention than any Porsche or Mercedes I`ve had . All thisfor under £1000 (!) .
Fab little car .
My mildly modified and cooly shabby Midget 1500 can set has set FTD on autotests (tarmac or grass), Clubmans rallies (well 2ndFTD beaten by 911 RS Carrera!), holds lots of class records for hillclimbing and sprinting (mostly with the previous owner) and this weekend climbed higher up one of the production car trial hills than anyone else.
Unfortunately this last event was too much for the diff but that's the first problem I've had and it had survived 3 years of brutal standing starts.
My advice: fix it, take off the bumpers (they weigh more than you think!) and lower the suspension, not least because it will boing up as soon as you take the bumpers off. Have some fun and then decide on engine swaps etc.
Unfortunately this last event was too much for the diff but that's the first problem I've had and it had survived 3 years of brutal standing starts.
My advice: fix it, take off the bumpers (they weigh more than you think!) and lower the suspension, not least because it will boing up as soon as you take the bumpers off. Have some fun and then decide on engine swaps etc.
Fiberglass flip front second hand off ebay, saves weight and time repairing the front. Ditch the 1500 and gear box, fit a 1800cc K series mounted to a type 9 ford box. I think k series engines are as cheap or cheaper than the x-flow and you start out of the box with 120 bhp – plenty of tuning parts. Plenty of adapter kits including Caterham.
Load of info on the internet regarding brake kits and front suspension – easy to lower the rear with lowering blocks or if you want a wider track then fit a ford rear axle. Put in a roll cage and decent seat… you’ll have a great car for not a lot of money….
Cheers
M.
Load of info on the internet regarding brake kits and front suspension – easy to lower the rear with lowering blocks or if you want a wider track then fit a ford rear axle. Put in a roll cage and decent seat… you’ll have a great car for not a lot of money….
Cheers
M.
www.kmidget.co.uk
1.8 K series midgets are fast tools if done correctly I am actively looking for one myself.
Loads on the net if you type in "K midget" ect.
If youre not bothered about outer panels being original why not go for a one piece fiberglass frogeye style front end, that's what im considering just for fun.
1.8 K series midgets are fast tools if done correctly I am actively looking for one myself.
Loads on the net if you type in "K midget" ect.
If youre not bothered about outer panels being original why not go for a one piece fiberglass frogeye style front end, that's what im considering just for fun.
Is there much in the way of difference between K series and x-flow, have seen a 1600 bored out 1700 x-flow on ebay that has been on twice in last week from same seller, presumably buyer never turned up which is how i got the MG for £300 in first place, just had to view it and got it for price it was at on ebay. But thats around £350, ford series 9 gearbox another ebay gem going for around £50, and very very tempted with:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Midget-Sprite-William-Pritch...
I take it with my limited mechanical skill that i am going to need a mechanic to do all the fitting with me as trainee monkey to help him, so how big a job is it to fit the new engine, gearbox and poss rear axle? also if i put a Ford axle in the back does that mean goodbye wire wheels? want the outside relatively old model style, was already thinking bumperless although tempted by chrome bumpers. Probably going hardtop, any ideas? and is it possible to do any repairs to bodywork at back with a fibreglass repair kit, and then just go fibreglass front piece? Also lowering blocks, or remove and save the weight of the leaf springs and replace with the damper kit?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Midget-Sprite-William-Pritch...
I take it with my limited mechanical skill that i am going to need a mechanic to do all the fitting with me as trainee monkey to help him, so how big a job is it to fit the new engine, gearbox and poss rear axle? also if i put a Ford axle in the back does that mean goodbye wire wheels? want the outside relatively old model style, was already thinking bumperless although tempted by chrome bumpers. Probably going hardtop, any ideas? and is it possible to do any repairs to bodywork at back with a fibreglass repair kit, and then just go fibreglass front piece? Also lowering blocks, or remove and save the weight of the leaf springs and replace with the damper kit?
Clive Lloyd said:
Also that 1600 bore out also produces (apparently) 176bhp at 5,500
:cough:bulls
t:cough:You can make a Crossflow produce 176bhp, but it would almost certainly be a very expensive (all steel) full race engine, basically undriveable on the road (no bottom-end torque, lots of clutch-slipping in town traffic and relatively peaky power delivery) and it certainly won't be making that power at 5,500rpm - 8,000rpm plus is more likely.
For reference, the semi-race Crossflow in my Sylva is making around 155bhp at 7,800rpm.
As others have said, the K-series is a much more sensible route to these sorts of power outputs; 175bhp on a K-series is pretty straightforward, well mannered and reliable. The Crossflow is getting pretty long in the tooth, these days.
You wouldn't necessarily need a Ford axle to handle that amount of power, but you would need uprated half-shafts in the Midget axle
Sorry thought i had read that on the Ebay posting, but just checked and its not on there and cant find the site i "quoted" from, may not exist, i swear i read that somewhere, not massively mechanically minded though but do like tinkering. Sounds like a K Series would be the way to go then, definitely the series 9 gearbox. Definitely appear to be a lot more available on ebay.
The rear axle is very easy to fix as the Clubmans race cars use the same thing. Uprated halfshafts & diff bits are available. Clubmans B use absolute full race 1700 X flows & race slicks! Otherwise fit a fordie english axle. Crossflows are expensive these days even to rebuild let alone tune & a K series would also fit the small engine bay, although I'd go ZETEC ford.
I'd go for the K series conversion, not least because it's a well trodden path. A tuned crossflow would certainly seem quite perky compared to the horrible 1500 Triumph boat anchor, but a K will give better road manners, much better economy and ultimately more power should you want it.
However, you also need to pay attention to the brakes and suspension, both of which are pretty dire as standard. The upper "wishbones" on the front suspension are beyond a joke, a single spindly lever attached to a lever arm damper which is horrendously flexible. Proper upper wishbone conversions are available, along with proper telescopic shocks. Better rear axle location would pay dividends as well - a 5 link setup is quite possible, though just a Panhard/Watts linkage would be a good improvement (as well as telescopic shocks).
Obviously getting the shell up to scratch is the first priority, and this is likely to be a very involved process. They aren't the easiest of cars to do bodywork on, and if you are doing it yourself make sure you brace the door apertures properly if you put new sills etc. on it!
However, you also need to pay attention to the brakes and suspension, both of which are pretty dire as standard. The upper "wishbones" on the front suspension are beyond a joke, a single spindly lever attached to a lever arm damper which is horrendously flexible. Proper upper wishbone conversions are available, along with proper telescopic shocks. Better rear axle location would pay dividends as well - a 5 link setup is quite possible, though just a Panhard/Watts linkage would be a good improvement (as well as telescopic shocks).
Obviously getting the shell up to scratch is the first priority, and this is likely to be a very involved process. They aren't the easiest of cars to do bodywork on, and if you are doing it yourself make sure you brace the door apertures properly if you put new sills etc. on it!
Ok, so my thoughts at the moment are save the money on a fibreglass body for now, and use the fibreglass repair kit from halfords to tackle the bodywork once paint is stripped. Rear telescopic kit for £200, K series engine, maybe 1.8 from zr with preferably under 40k miles so somewhere around £300 from basic glance at ebay, 9 series gearbox £100 (ebay), overhaul the rear drums, new shoes, pads etc and new discs and pads on front (before upgrade to larger vented with 4 pot callipers), £100. Price of mechanic help...dunno...prob a bit. But hopefully coming in around 2k for whole project, including welding, sills, new floor plates, new roof and exhaust. Anything else i should be thinking of? Also was thinking whilst at it i might bring the clutch brake and throtle more central cos of there rather right handed position, anyone know if this is an easy job?
Clive Lloyd said:
Ok, so my thoughts at the moment are save the money on a fibreglass body for now, and use the fibreglass repair kit from halfords to tackle the bodywork once paint is stripped.
You can get fibreglass front ends and boots, door etc, for midgets, but ultimately they are still attached to the steel shell. If you have a rusty midget then the only way to make it strong and safe is to cut out the rot and weld good metal in. Sills and rear spring hangers are very common rot points, if the rest of the car is tatty then these will likely be in a sorry state.
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