Discussion
I'm posting this on here because many of us probably take our beloved motors to France and do a spot of touring. I would be interested to here your opinions on this kind of disgraceful behaviour by the French authorities, and what we should, or could do about it.
I would be particularly interested in your take on it lowdrag, being a resident there, and the owner of some spectacularly rapid machinery; this of course, rendering you a potential target and victim.
Read on :- http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I would be particularly interested in your take on it lowdrag, being a resident there, and the owner of some spectacularly rapid machinery; this of course, rendering you a potential target and victim.
Read on :- http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
J,Do I remember recently the illegal immigrant whole killed a school girl, dangerous driving and excess speed the cause. I have absolutely no sympathy here.The guy flouts the law and he must take the consequences without gripe. Won`t do it again? oh please.Try explaining that to a road death family. He obviously has got away with it many times before and thought he could do so again. Maybe the French are trying to reduce their accident rate? Ignorance of the law is no defence and France is not an amateur race track their for the taking. Ferrari or whatever. He needs to do more track days and simply respect the law.
jith, my reply is exactly the same as I posted about other cases on the Le Mans forum in 2008. People come thinking that since they are abroad they can do as they like and not give a damn. I commented that when I went a month later to the Silverstone Classic I didn't see people overtaking me at warp speed on the M1 nor on the A43; why ever not I wonder? The law is the law and you flout it at your peril. That's not to say I don't take risks from time to time - I am only human after all and I have a car capable of over 180mph. Today I left the circuit after doing some photography at the Le Mans story event and down past the Porsche Curves on the way to Arnage bend there were the BIB with radar in hand and two motorcyle bobbies to stop you if you tried to do a runner. I was in the D type travelling at 55mph, the legal limit. I post every year a warning on the Le Mans forum about the perils especially at that time of year - they are just rubbing their hands waiting for you to act the fool. Yet, each and every year, rain or shine, the same thing happens whether it be the 24 hour bike race, the GP bike, Le Mans or Le Mans classic. I post regularly the number of fines and infractions too - 700+ at the bike GP this year for example with 55 driving licences confiscated on the spot. If people don't have enough between their two ears to realise, despite being warned, that they are sitting ducks then more fool them. Here is one example of my regular annual posts on the matter:-
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a... speed warning
The chances of a foreigner having his car confiscated and sold for state funds are somewhere south of zero but they impound it and make life as difficult for you as they can. I find this chap extremely lucky to have had his fine reduced as well as the storage charges too; usually they impose the maximum of 1,500€ nowadays. I frankly have no sympathy with the chap - it was just sheer stupidity. I wonder how the BIB in the UK would have reacted if he was caught at 103mph in a 60 limit and would he even have dared to do it in the UK? Oh, and do not forget that here the police are aware of speedo error and his actual registered speed was 185kph (115mph) less that 10%. Simply, there are times you take the risk, but knowing full well the consequences, and others when you know it is sheer foolhardiness to do so like Le Mans events. I rest.
I'd like to say also how sorry I am today to see a man die on the track. No, not an accident but a heart attack at the wheel just 5 minutes after I interviewed him in the paddock. RIP.
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a... speed warning
The chances of a foreigner having his car confiscated and sold for state funds are somewhere south of zero but they impound it and make life as difficult for you as they can. I find this chap extremely lucky to have had his fine reduced as well as the storage charges too; usually they impose the maximum of 1,500€ nowadays. I frankly have no sympathy with the chap - it was just sheer stupidity. I wonder how the BIB in the UK would have reacted if he was caught at 103mph in a 60 limit and would he even have dared to do it in the UK? Oh, and do not forget that here the police are aware of speedo error and his actual registered speed was 185kph (115mph) less that 10%. Simply, there are times you take the risk, but knowing full well the consequences, and others when you know it is sheer foolhardiness to do so like Le Mans events. I rest.
I'd like to say also how sorry I am today to see a man die on the track. No, not an accident but a heart attack at the wheel just 5 minutes after I interviewed him in the paddock. RIP.
Edited by lowdrag on Sunday 5th July 08:58
Jese Lowdrag, what the hell did you say to him. Apologies for the joke, I know in poor taste I just could not resist. Just reinforces the theory of enjoy it whilst you can.
Re French authorities. You are absolutely right. If you can't do the time, don't commit the crime. Problem is that for many many years the French police have turned a blind eye to speeding. Really did not care less on motorways. Now things have changed and one needs to drive by their laws or risk getting fined. Personally I'd rather abide by their law at 130kph rather than 70mph. Last weekend I drove out to Spa to compete in the britcar 3 hour night race. Took my other halves 993C2S and just left the cruise on at around 135kph. No problem and no hassle. Did not see a single belgium police car and did not see a single speed sign on any of the belgium motorway's, except for the slow bits. Had to presume Belgium is still 130kph but have a sneaking suspicion it is 120kph.
Re French authorities. You are absolutely right. If you can't do the time, don't commit the crime. Problem is that for many many years the French police have turned a blind eye to speeding. Really did not care less on motorways. Now things have changed and one needs to drive by their laws or risk getting fined. Personally I'd rather abide by their law at 130kph rather than 70mph. Last weekend I drove out to Spa to compete in the britcar 3 hour night race. Took my other halves 993C2S and just left the cruise on at around 135kph. No problem and no hassle. Did not see a single belgium police car and did not see a single speed sign on any of the belgium motorway's, except for the slow bits. Had to presume Belgium is still 130kph but have a sneaking suspicion it is 120kph.
lowdrag said:
Good stuff
More than 50 km/h over the limit = "contravention de 5ème classe", which they take very seriously. Maximums are €1,500 fine, 6 points & 3 year ban. I know of two folks round here - Loiret (45), they are both French, were driving Renault's, cars impounded but not confiscated, and received the €1,500 fine & a 3 month ban. This seems to be the norm, and as far as I am aware it makes no difference in practice where you're from, or what you're driving. In theory, the only difference would be if you don't have a French licence, they can't apply the points. Yet.Edited by LotusNova on Sunday 5th July 08:17
I completely agree with Lowdrag. And not having documents, reflective jacket etc. confirms how far he was taking the piss.
It isn't difficult to at least follow the basics is it. And we are all getting hacked off with the eastern bloc guys, both cars & trucks coming here & flouting our rules & injuring & killing people. Living in Kent I see a least 2 accidents a week involving foreign trucks & around one a month that involves serious injury/death.
It isn't difficult to at least follow the basics is it. And we are all getting hacked off with the eastern bloc guys, both cars & trucks coming here & flouting our rules & injuring & killing people. Living in Kent I see a least 2 accidents a week involving foreign trucks & around one a month that involves serious injury/death.
So, let me get this right.
A guy driving a Ferrari 360 got stopped at a speed that means an instant loss of licence (for between 14 and 56 days) and 6 points in UK.
1) In what way if this relevant to the "Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes" forum? I wouldn't consider any car that's 7 years old a classic, nor would I consider this guy to be any form of hero.
2) What exactly is the guy complaining about? Broke law, got caught.
3) In what way is the French authorities enforcing French law on French terratory "disgraceful behaviour by the French authorities"? I would consider it one of the core roles of the French police to stop people committing criminal acts...
A guy driving a Ferrari 360 got stopped at a speed that means an instant loss of licence (for between 14 and 56 days) and 6 points in UK.
1) In what way if this relevant to the "Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes" forum? I wouldn't consider any car that's 7 years old a classic, nor would I consider this guy to be any form of hero.
2) What exactly is the guy complaining about? Broke law, got caught.
3) In what way is the French authorities enforcing French law on French terratory "disgraceful behaviour by the French authorities"? I would consider it one of the core roles of the French police to stop people committing criminal acts...
Yepp not sure what it is doing in this forum.
The French police used to take very little notice of speeding motorist.
Now they do.
Same happened here years ago. I got stop for excessively exceeding the speed limit on the M40 20 odd years ago. All the coppers wanted to know was
a) had I been drinking
b) had I stolen the car
Once satisfied that neither was the case they let me on my way.
Wouldn't happen here now.
A few years ago the French President "declared war" of the ever increasing death toll on their roads. They now routinely use speed camera on Motorways. But lets face it, if UK government had the system of toll booths in place than the French have they would prosecute everyone who averaged too higher speed on any motorway journey.
The French police used to take very little notice of speeding motorist.
Now they do.
Same happened here years ago. I got stop for excessively exceeding the speed limit on the M40 20 odd years ago. All the coppers wanted to know was
a) had I been drinking
b) had I stolen the car
Once satisfied that neither was the case they let me on my way.
Wouldn't happen here now.
A few years ago the French President "declared war" of the ever increasing death toll on their roads. They now routinely use speed camera on Motorways. But lets face it, if UK government had the system of toll booths in place than the French have they would prosecute everyone who averaged too higher speed on any motorway journey.
How do we deal with this "thing" about speeding? This is the million dollar question.
Let's look at what Jules Martin posted up and what I actually said in response over on SP&L, where this sort of question arises regularly.
I just love driving through France, but have not done so for about six years, and it is clear to me from various sources that things have changed dramatically in that time, unfortunately for the worse.
What has to be borne in mind here is that the French system of justice is, or rather was, very similar to the Scottish one. But what happened to you, and indeed many others, is utterly unacceptable in a European Union member state. It amounts to legalised extortion in a grand manner, and should be resisted in the strongest possible terms.
When I visited France the one and only thing that never ceased to irritate me was certain individuals involved in petty bureacratic systems who positively revelled in bullying using whatever small powers they were blessed with. This is a classic example of this, and could not, under any stretch of the imagination, be mistaken for justice.
What needs to happen here is for every single victim of this nonsense to complain to both their Euro MP and directly to the French authorities in the strongest possible terms. Start a civil action for recovery of all your losses through the French courts, making it crystal clear that you will go to the ECHR if required; if this is done as a multiple action, the costs become affordable. Complain to the organisers of LeMans making it clear once again that this is seriously jeopardising attendance at the event, and all other events in France. Complain to as many motoring organisations as you can find, and ensure that the issues get as much media coverage as possible.
In legal terms you are being prosecuted, and persecuted because of your nationality, with absolutely no evidence being shown to the court: totally unacceptable.
I have a great deal of respect for most of the people who post in this forum, and take pleasure in reading about the cars, etc, but I'm afraid the business being discussed here is an entirely different subject requiring an insight into just exactly what is goin on, NOT what the media or the authorities would have you believe.
I am sorry to have to say this RW, and please don't take it personally, but your post is entirely indicative of my point: your response just plays straight into the hands of the "speed kills" brigade who delight in enforcing their policies despite the fact that they are wholly ineffective and clearly political in creation and motif.
But let's examine what happened to Jules, so that we fully understand both the severity of what is going on in terms of speed enforcement in France, and the comparison that lowdrag attempts to make with Britain. You stated lowdrag, "I wonder how the BIB in the UK would have reacted if he was caught at 103mph in a 60 limit and would he even have dared to do it in the UK?"
I can tell you. Firstly, dozens of drivers exceed 100 MPH on a daily basis in this country, particularly the police and the emergency services: some of this is done on roads with 60 MPH limits, but it should be borne in mind that many of these roads have had their limits artificially reduced to sustain convictions by local authorities. We even have the ludicrous situation at Glasgow Airport where they have reduced the motorway limit to 40MPH!!
If Jules had been stopped by a patrol car in this country fitted with Provida, a system I doubt the French have ever used simply because it utilises video evidence that the accused can use to defend themselves, he would have been asked politely to take a seat in the rear of the patrol car. He is then shown the video of the pursuit showing his vehicle and how it is being driven. On this video is the speed of the police vehicle and the result of the calculation used to compute his speed. If he disagrees with this or has any doubts about the accuracy of the calculation he is entitled, upon entering a not guilty plea, to a copy of the video and this is shown in court as the evidence to accompany the police statements. He is cautioned and charged with the offence and issued with an HORT1 form to produce the required documents, licence, MOT, insurance, etc, at a police station of his choice. He then drives on his way and has to answer to a court of law at a later date where he can defend himself or enter a plea of mitigation if appropriate.
Throughout this process he will be treated as not guilty until proven otherwise. If the video shows his driving to be sub standard or dangerous, he will be charged with these offences and the video shown once again for the consideration of the court. This process is known as the administration of justice, and anything short of this in a European country in this day and age is totally unacceptable.
There are variations on this sadly, the most common being fixed or mobile speed cameras. These devices are highly questionable and are constantly challenged in courts even as we speak. They support systems that are devoid of any consideration of road safety, but instead are the keystones of politically correct government policies that command massive and ever increasing revenues.
This brings us neatly back to France. Unlike Britain, the camera situation, when one investigates it, is almost unbelievable. Most of the cameras and speed enforcement equipment is manufactured in France by Sagem; the manufacturer of the cheapest, nastiest, most unreliable mobile phones in the world. It gets better. Guess who is responsible for the calibration, accuracy and maintenance of this equipment? Well, well, it's Sagem. What checks are done to ensure all of this stuff functions correctly and accurately by the authorities? Absolutely none! You cannot ask for, nor do certificates of accuracy exist.
How much revenue did these gadgets bring into the French economy in 2007?
Over 500 million euros!!!! These are the French government's own figures.
So let's see what Jules did to deserve the sharp end of this system. Well he drove his beloved Ferrari to Lemans. But what else did he do? Nothing actually, except exceed an arbitrary limit on a straight empty stretch of road. Was he involved in an accident? Nope! Was he involved in an incident even? Nope! Is there any evidence whatever that anything he did was careless or dangerous? Nope!
And most importantly, was there any evidence that could be examined to justify his speed? Absolutely not, it doesn't exist.
So we fully understand the situation here, he was stopped, forced to leave his vehicle, shown no evidence, LOCKED IN A CELL!, relieved of 750 euros without trial because it was a Ferrari, his car impounded, had to return to France and face another magistrate whose adviser wanted to sell the car and give the proceeds back to the people of France, and ban him for a year!
What if he would have been certain that he wasn't speeding, as many stopped in this fashion are? How in the name of god do you defend yourself in a situation like this?
These are examples of the dubious quality of remote enforcement systems :-
5/30/09
9298 Bogus Speed Camera Tickets Refunded in The Netherlands
Dutch officials refund 9298 speed camera tickets in Arnhem because their accuracy could not be verified.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
5/16/09
New Zealand Speed Cameras Doubled Speed Readings for Trucks
New Zealand refunds speed camera tickets issued to trucks after speed readings prove to be bogus.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
4/14/09
Netherlands: 289 Red Light Camera Tickets Refunded
Police in The Netherlands refund 289 automated tickets issued by a mistimed red light camera.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
4/3/09
French Legislators Question Accuracy of Speed Cameras
French lawmakers cry foul when speed camera maker certifies its own equipment as perfectly accurate.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
3/27/09
France, UK: Parked Cars Receive Speed Camera Tickets
While Germany claims its speed cameras are flawless, innocent motorists receive automated tickets in Arizona, France and the UK.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
3/23/09
Switzerland: 3000 Bogus Speed Camera Tickets Refunded
Lausanne, Switzerland police refund 3000 tickets after discovering technical fault in speed camera cause erroneous readings.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
2/12/09
Germany: Police Caught Tampering with Speed Camera Ticket
Police chief and subordinates in Bavaria, Germany are under investigation for manipulating speed camera readings.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
2/9/09
Netherlands: 2640 Photo Radar Tickets Refunded
Dutch authorities refund $130,000 in tickets issued by speed cameras over accuracy concern.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
There are hundreds more examples like these from all over the world. If this is not stopped it will get worse, and worse, until we will not be permitted to enjoy our beautiful cars anywhere.
Yes, there are lunatics driving, seriously degraded drivers and drivers who are simply just not suited to controlling a vehicle. The answer to all of this is proper and appropriate driver training.
Speed enforcement has never worked and never will, because it does not address the essence of the causation of accidents.
Those of you who do not see why this kind of government abuse should not be vehemently opposed seriously need to examine your social conscience.
Let's look at what Jules Martin posted up and what I actually said in response over on SP&L, where this sort of question arises regularly.
jith said:
jules martin said:
Sorry this post is a little late on the subject but I can add my definitive experience which may help others next year. I was caught by a pistol gun on the D138 5 kms South of Fye on Friday morning. I was travelling at 167kms in my 360 Spider in a 90 kms limit (the usual excuses;- straight road, no intersections, sunny day, didn't realise how fast I was going, very soirry - it won't happen again etc)
They made me park my car in a farmyard and took me to the Gendarmerie in Oisseau Le Petit. Put in a cell for 2 hours. Then broufght out whilst they phoned the prefect (magistrate). They told him the speed and he asked what the make of the car was. Gendarme replied Ferrari and the mag. replied with one word "Maximum" Paid my 750.00 Euros and they took me back to empty my car.
Back to the station for more paperwork and to be told they were impounding my car. Back to the car to put the towing eye in and handed over the keys. Back to the Gendarmerie whilst arrangements were made for the court case which was set for Tuesday 30th June. I was told I would have to pay in addition the courts legal costs, storage at 30 Euros per day, the lorry costs to take the Ferrari to the Le Mans pound, and any additional costs they may come up with. I was told I was banned from driving until the Court case. They added to the list, no reflective jacket, no headlight deflectors, a photocopy of the V5 and Insurance document instead of the original and no GB plate.
On Saturday morning my driving licence photocard arrived back in the post with a form saying that my ban was for 3 months
Took a friend and travelled to Mamers for the Court case on Tuesday. They provided a very nice translator for me who managed to get my case heard first. The magistrate seemed to be a fairly affable character but in France the system is different. There is a representative from the Ministry of transport who made a speech about the dangers of speeding. The magistrate asked me if I agreed with this and I of course replied yes.
I had prepared a short statement in French which I gave saying how sorry I was and how it was my 23rd visit to Le Mans 24 hour race and that I could assure the Court it would never happen again. I told the Court that although I was retired, I couldn't take my pensiojn until my 60th birthday and so was living off capital and had very little spare cash. He asked my how come I could afford a Ferrari and I replied that it was a present from my father just before he died.
He then asked the ministry woman what she thought was an appropriate penalty. Wait for it............................. She replied another 750.00 Euros, a 1 year ban, and the car should be sold with the proceeds going to the French people !!! (I thought she was going to ask for the Guillotine to be brough back as well).
Anyway she and the magistrate argued for a few minutes and He made the following judgement. Reduce the fine from 750.00 Euros to 500.00 Euros. Reduce the storage costs from 30.00 Euros per day to 3.50 Euros. And that the car be impounded for 1 month from the date of the offence after which I could have it back. My driving ban in France was to remain at 3 months.
All I can say in conclusion is that I will NOT be speeding in France again, the hassle just isn't worth it. It will have cost me over £2000.00 by the time I have finished, 5-6 days of my time, Loss of my car for a month in the middle of a hot summer, put a large dampener on the Le Mans weekend and a lot of worry.
On reflection, it was totally stupid to drive at 167kph in a 90 kph limit on the main non-motorway drag to Le Mans at the 24 hour weekend, however safe I knew it to be.
Be Warned !
Jules
Jules, you have my sympathies, but I totally despair when I read this.They made me park my car in a farmyard and took me to the Gendarmerie in Oisseau Le Petit. Put in a cell for 2 hours. Then broufght out whilst they phoned the prefect (magistrate). They told him the speed and he asked what the make of the car was. Gendarme replied Ferrari and the mag. replied with one word "Maximum" Paid my 750.00 Euros and they took me back to empty my car.
Back to the station for more paperwork and to be told they were impounding my car. Back to the car to put the towing eye in and handed over the keys. Back to the Gendarmerie whilst arrangements were made for the court case which was set for Tuesday 30th June. I was told I would have to pay in addition the courts legal costs, storage at 30 Euros per day, the lorry costs to take the Ferrari to the Le Mans pound, and any additional costs they may come up with. I was told I was banned from driving until the Court case. They added to the list, no reflective jacket, no headlight deflectors, a photocopy of the V5 and Insurance document instead of the original and no GB plate.
On Saturday morning my driving licence photocard arrived back in the post with a form saying that my ban was for 3 months
Took a friend and travelled to Mamers for the Court case on Tuesday. They provided a very nice translator for me who managed to get my case heard first. The magistrate seemed to be a fairly affable character but in France the system is different. There is a representative from the Ministry of transport who made a speech about the dangers of speeding. The magistrate asked me if I agreed with this and I of course replied yes.
I had prepared a short statement in French which I gave saying how sorry I was and how it was my 23rd visit to Le Mans 24 hour race and that I could assure the Court it would never happen again. I told the Court that although I was retired, I couldn't take my pensiojn until my 60th birthday and so was living off capital and had very little spare cash. He asked my how come I could afford a Ferrari and I replied that it was a present from my father just before he died.
He then asked the ministry woman what she thought was an appropriate penalty. Wait for it............................. She replied another 750.00 Euros, a 1 year ban, and the car should be sold with the proceeds going to the French people !!! (I thought she was going to ask for the Guillotine to be brough back as well).
Anyway she and the magistrate argued for a few minutes and He made the following judgement. Reduce the fine from 750.00 Euros to 500.00 Euros. Reduce the storage costs from 30.00 Euros per day to 3.50 Euros. And that the car be impounded for 1 month from the date of the offence after which I could have it back. My driving ban in France was to remain at 3 months.
All I can say in conclusion is that I will NOT be speeding in France again, the hassle just isn't worth it. It will have cost me over £2000.00 by the time I have finished, 5-6 days of my time, Loss of my car for a month in the middle of a hot summer, put a large dampener on the Le Mans weekend and a lot of worry.
On reflection, it was totally stupid to drive at 167kph in a 90 kph limit on the main non-motorway drag to Le Mans at the 24 hour weekend, however safe I knew it to be.
Be Warned !
Jules
I just love driving through France, but have not done so for about six years, and it is clear to me from various sources that things have changed dramatically in that time, unfortunately for the worse.
What has to be borne in mind here is that the French system of justice is, or rather was, very similar to the Scottish one. But what happened to you, and indeed many others, is utterly unacceptable in a European Union member state. It amounts to legalised extortion in a grand manner, and should be resisted in the strongest possible terms.
When I visited France the one and only thing that never ceased to irritate me was certain individuals involved in petty bureacratic systems who positively revelled in bullying using whatever small powers they were blessed with. This is a classic example of this, and could not, under any stretch of the imagination, be mistaken for justice.
What needs to happen here is for every single victim of this nonsense to complain to both their Euro MP and directly to the French authorities in the strongest possible terms. Start a civil action for recovery of all your losses through the French courts, making it crystal clear that you will go to the ECHR if required; if this is done as a multiple action, the costs become affordable. Complain to the organisers of LeMans making it clear once again that this is seriously jeopardising attendance at the event, and all other events in France. Complain to as many motoring organisations as you can find, and ensure that the issues get as much media coverage as possible.
In legal terms you are being prosecuted, and persecuted because of your nationality, with absolutely no evidence being shown to the court: totally unacceptable.
Edited by jith on Saturday 4th July 13:02
I am sorry to have to say this RW, and please don't take it personally, but your post is entirely indicative of my point: your response just plays straight into the hands of the "speed kills" brigade who delight in enforcing their policies despite the fact that they are wholly ineffective and clearly political in creation and motif.
But let's examine what happened to Jules, so that we fully understand both the severity of what is going on in terms of speed enforcement in France, and the comparison that lowdrag attempts to make with Britain. You stated lowdrag, "I wonder how the BIB in the UK would have reacted if he was caught at 103mph in a 60 limit and would he even have dared to do it in the UK?"
I can tell you. Firstly, dozens of drivers exceed 100 MPH on a daily basis in this country, particularly the police and the emergency services: some of this is done on roads with 60 MPH limits, but it should be borne in mind that many of these roads have had their limits artificially reduced to sustain convictions by local authorities. We even have the ludicrous situation at Glasgow Airport where they have reduced the motorway limit to 40MPH!!
If Jules had been stopped by a patrol car in this country fitted with Provida, a system I doubt the French have ever used simply because it utilises video evidence that the accused can use to defend themselves, he would have been asked politely to take a seat in the rear of the patrol car. He is then shown the video of the pursuit showing his vehicle and how it is being driven. On this video is the speed of the police vehicle and the result of the calculation used to compute his speed. If he disagrees with this or has any doubts about the accuracy of the calculation he is entitled, upon entering a not guilty plea, to a copy of the video and this is shown in court as the evidence to accompany the police statements. He is cautioned and charged with the offence and issued with an HORT1 form to produce the required documents, licence, MOT, insurance, etc, at a police station of his choice. He then drives on his way and has to answer to a court of law at a later date where he can defend himself or enter a plea of mitigation if appropriate.
Throughout this process he will be treated as not guilty until proven otherwise. If the video shows his driving to be sub standard or dangerous, he will be charged with these offences and the video shown once again for the consideration of the court. This process is known as the administration of justice, and anything short of this in a European country in this day and age is totally unacceptable.
There are variations on this sadly, the most common being fixed or mobile speed cameras. These devices are highly questionable and are constantly challenged in courts even as we speak. They support systems that are devoid of any consideration of road safety, but instead are the keystones of politically correct government policies that command massive and ever increasing revenues.
This brings us neatly back to France. Unlike Britain, the camera situation, when one investigates it, is almost unbelievable. Most of the cameras and speed enforcement equipment is manufactured in France by Sagem; the manufacturer of the cheapest, nastiest, most unreliable mobile phones in the world. It gets better. Guess who is responsible for the calibration, accuracy and maintenance of this equipment? Well, well, it's Sagem. What checks are done to ensure all of this stuff functions correctly and accurately by the authorities? Absolutely none! You cannot ask for, nor do certificates of accuracy exist.
How much revenue did these gadgets bring into the French economy in 2007?
Over 500 million euros!!!! These are the French government's own figures.
So let's see what Jules did to deserve the sharp end of this system. Well he drove his beloved Ferrari to Lemans. But what else did he do? Nothing actually, except exceed an arbitrary limit on a straight empty stretch of road. Was he involved in an accident? Nope! Was he involved in an incident even? Nope! Is there any evidence whatever that anything he did was careless or dangerous? Nope!
And most importantly, was there any evidence that could be examined to justify his speed? Absolutely not, it doesn't exist.
So we fully understand the situation here, he was stopped, forced to leave his vehicle, shown no evidence, LOCKED IN A CELL!, relieved of 750 euros without trial because it was a Ferrari, his car impounded, had to return to France and face another magistrate whose adviser wanted to sell the car and give the proceeds back to the people of France, and ban him for a year!
What if he would have been certain that he wasn't speeding, as many stopped in this fashion are? How in the name of god do you defend yourself in a situation like this?
These are examples of the dubious quality of remote enforcement systems :-
5/30/09
9298 Bogus Speed Camera Tickets Refunded in The Netherlands
Dutch officials refund 9298 speed camera tickets in Arnhem because their accuracy could not be verified.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
5/16/09
New Zealand Speed Cameras Doubled Speed Readings for Trucks
New Zealand refunds speed camera tickets issued to trucks after speed readings prove to be bogus.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
4/14/09
Netherlands: 289 Red Light Camera Tickets Refunded
Police in The Netherlands refund 289 automated tickets issued by a mistimed red light camera.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
4/3/09
French Legislators Question Accuracy of Speed Cameras
French lawmakers cry foul when speed camera maker certifies its own equipment as perfectly accurate.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
3/27/09
France, UK: Parked Cars Receive Speed Camera Tickets
While Germany claims its speed cameras are flawless, innocent motorists receive automated tickets in Arizona, France and the UK.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
3/23/09
Switzerland: 3000 Bogus Speed Camera Tickets Refunded
Lausanne, Switzerland police refund 3000 tickets after discovering technical fault in speed camera cause erroneous readings.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
2/12/09
Germany: Police Caught Tampering with Speed Camera Ticket
Police chief and subordinates in Bavaria, Germany are under investigation for manipulating speed camera readings.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
2/9/09
Netherlands: 2640 Photo Radar Tickets Refunded
Dutch authorities refund $130,000 in tickets issued by speed cameras over accuracy concern.
Camera Enforcement / Camera Accuracy READ MORE>>
There are hundreds more examples like these from all over the world. If this is not stopped it will get worse, and worse, until we will not be permitted to enjoy our beautiful cars anywhere.
Yes, there are lunatics driving, seriously degraded drivers and drivers who are simply just not suited to controlling a vehicle. The answer to all of this is proper and appropriate driver training.
Speed enforcement has never worked and never will, because it does not address the essence of the causation of accidents.
Those of you who do not see why this kind of government abuse should not be vehemently opposed seriously need to examine your social conscience.
jith said:
A valid argument that merits discussion - but as above, what's it doing in Classic Cars? 
From what I've read, the driver involved took it on the chin, handled the situation as well as he could in the circumstances, and deserves respect for the reduction.What's this got to do with Classics though? Wouldn't it be more appropriate in SP&L?
LotusNova said:
jith said:
A valid argument that merits discussion - but as above, what's it doing in Classic Cars?
From what I've read, the driver involved took it on the chin, handled the situation as well as he could in the circumstances, and deserves respect for the reduction.What's this got to do with Classics though? Wouldn't it be more appropriate in SP&L?
How would you feel if your precious historic vehicle was crushed by the French because you were unable to defend yourself against their system?
jith said:
How do we deal with this "thing" about speeding? This is the million dollar question.
Well the usual system in a democratic country is for the peoples elected representitives to pass legislation, defining speed limits, applying these to sections of highway and then listing the penalties for exceeding these speeds.Not seeing anything too complicated there. Just usual democratic law-making process.
jith said:
...But let's examine what happened to Jules, so that we fully understand both the severity of what is going on in terms of speed enforcement in France, and the comparison that lowdrag attempts to make with Britain. You stated lowdrag, "I wonder how the BIB in the UK would have reacted if he was caught at 103mph in a 60 limit and would he even have dared to do it in the UK?"
I can tell you. Firstly, dozens of drivers exceed 100 MPH on a daily basis in this country...
Umm, interesting. You're going with the mob-rule defense. Everyone is doing it so it must be OK. I'll let you keep digging.I can tell you. Firstly, dozens of drivers exceed 100 MPH on a daily basis in this country...
jith said:
... particularly the police and the emergency services...
Umm, what about aircraft - they also regularly exceed the speed limit. So do trains, and the International Space Station. And light. So?Are you REALLY making the argument that because designated vehicles (if being driven within the law)/drivers responding to an emergency are permitted to exceed speed limits (while running strob lights and sirens) then so should everyone else (without the lights/noise)?
jith said:
...some of this is done on roads with 60 MPH limits, but it should be borne in mind that many of these roads have had their limits artificially reduced...
Umm, I think you will find most of them have actually had their limits FORMALLY reduced by council review, consultation with police, other authorities and local residence. The only instance of a speed limit being ARTIFICIALLY reduced would be if the guy putting the signs up decided to put up some 40MPH ones when he knew he should be putting up 50MPH ones.jith said:
...to sustain convictions by local authorities...
Do you have any evidence of this, or is it just conjecture? Can't say I've seen any coverage of this in the media and the closes I can get on a quick Google is a Telegraph article titled "Tougher speed limits smacks of revinue-raising" from April (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/5193769/Tougher-speed-limits-smack-of-revenue-raising.html). This is clearly marked as an opinion piece and not a factual/investigative piece so is simply the opinion of the author, with no evidence to back it up.jith said:
...We even have the ludicrous situation at Glasgow Airport where they have reduced the motorway limit to 40MPH!!...
Don't know Glasgow airport that well so hard to comment but is thie by any chance an area prone to congestion, due to speeds dropping from the 70MPH national motorway limit to a site speed limit of 15 or 20MPH? If so then it is quite common and based on traffic flow analysis the most effective way of handling high traffic flows. If everyone just hammers along at 70MPH and suddenly slows to 20MPH traffic backs up and quickly comes to a standstill.If traffic is slowed more gradually you are able to keep everyone moving, all be it at a reduced speed for longer and overall the time taken to cover the distance is reduced.
This has been shown to work on the M6 when traffic density increases. If people can stay in their lanes and keep a good distance from the car in front much more traffic can actually flow than when people jump lanes/tailgate to prevent people switching lanes. In the former case a following car can react to the car in front braking lightly by easing off the gas, as the driver has time to react and judge how sharply the leading driver is slowing. In the latter case the driver has to over-brake as they don't have time to judge - they have to assume a rapid braking then ease off. It only takes a few cars before one comes to a full halt and you have one of those lovelly tailbacks that you crawl through for ages and...then just frees up without any reason for it having occured.
Then again if it's just a random streatch of the motorway that drops from 70MPH to 40MPH then goes back up it would be a different case. As I said, I don't know the section of motorway in question.
jith said:
...If Jules had been stopped by a patrol car in this country fitted with Provida, a system I doubt the French have ever used simply because it utilises video evidence that the accused can use to defend themselves, he would have been asked politely to take a seat in the rear of the patrol car. He is then shown the video of the pursuit showing his vehicle and how it is being driven. On this video is the speed of the police vehicle and the result of the calculation used to compute his speed. If he disagrees with this or has any doubts about the accuracy of the calculation he is entitled, upon entering a not guilty plea, to a copy of the video and this is shown in court as the evidence to accompany the police statements. He is cautioned and charged with the offence and issued with an HORT1 form to produce the required documents, licence, MOT, insurance, etc, at a police station of his choice. He then drives on his way and has to answer to a court of law at a later date where he can defend himself or enter a plea of mitigation if appropriate.
Throughout this process he will be treated as not guilty until proven otherwise. If the video shows his driving to be sub standard or dangerous, he will be charged with these offences and the video shown once again for the consideration of the court. This process is known as the administration of justice, and anything short of this in a European country in this day and age is totally unacceptable...
This is very similar to the French system, though rather than clog up the court system with minor cases they French police are empowered by law to handles these on the spot.Throughout this process he will be treated as not guilty until proven otherwise. If the video shows his driving to be sub standard or dangerous, he will be charged with these offences and the video shown once again for the consideration of the court. This process is known as the administration of justice, and anything short of this in a European country in this day and age is totally unacceptable...
There are minor differencies between UK and French legal system around the level of evidence required (police do not require video evidence for example - the word of the officer is considered sufficient for minor offencies like this) but then the police can only take specific actions. For minor speeding offencies they can hand out an on-the-spot fine. For more serious offences they hand out the fine and impound the vehicle and in such a situation the case will be passed to the magistrates court to review the evidence and either approve, decrease or increase the punishment.
Sounds like quite a good system. Personally I would prefer one with greater weight on physical evidence (as in the UK) but this is far more controlled than say the US.
jith said:
...There are variations on this sadly, the most common being fixed or mobile speed cameras. These devices are highly questionable and are constantly challenged in courts even as we speak. They support systems that are devoid of any consideration of road safety, but instead are the keystones of politically correct government policies that command massive and ever increasing revenues...
Personally I think speed cameras are a great idea. Unlike say fuel duty they don't hit everyone, just people that speed - in effect they are a tax on the stupid and so something I'm in favour of. If you're stupid enough to speed and get caught, you help keep my income tax down a bit and I can use the extra cash to pay for another track day! jith said:
...So let's see what Jules did to deserve the sharp end of this system. Well he drove his beloved Ferrari to Lemans. But what else did he do? Nothing actually, except exceed an arbitrary limit...
Yep, job done. Oh, you've got more to say (for some reason - thought that was a summary of the fact but I'll let you go on).jith said:
...on a straight empty stretch of road...
So you if it had been on a slight bend you would agree that he was being a t
t, breaking the law and got caught? Could you clarify, how much of a corner does it have to be before you consider speeding illegal? +10MPH on a 45degree bend?jith said:
..Was he involved in an accident? Nope!...
So it was OK because he didn't crash. Would you have ranted about how stupid he was if he HAD crashed?jith said:
..Was he involved in an incident even? Nope!...
Again, you do like to leave your stable doors open untill the horses have gone don't you. He was OK because nothing happened but would have been wrong if it had. Thankfully laws are generally passed to PREVENT accidents/incidents happening.jith said:
...Is there any evidence whatever that anything he did was careless or dangerous? Nope!...
No evidence has been presented to state the above, but then we only have once side of the evidence and one accepted fact - he was breaking the law.Sex with sheep isn't careless (if you pick a clean one, not some slag) or dangerous (unless they kick) but still illegal. Yes, I am being facetious but the reasons we have laws in a civilised society are to define what the populus as a whole consideres acceptable or otherwise - regardless of what any individual my think.
jith said:
..And most importantly, was there any evidence that could be examined to justify his speed? Absolutely not, it doesn't exist....
Umm, you might want to re-word that. Currently you are saying that there wasn't any evidence to justify his speed - nice cut and dried case then. You are probably trying to ask if there was evidence to justify the speed that the police failed to record and so could not latter be relied upon in court.I have to say I can't think of many justifications for doing 100MPH in a 60MPH limit. Throttle jammed wide open? - Maybe should have been able to kill the engine long before reaching 100MPH. Being chased by a Tsunami? - Probably not going fast-enough.
jith said:
...So we fully understand the situation here, he was stopped, forced to leave his vehicle, shown no evidence, LOCKED IN A CELL!, relieved of 750 euros without trial because it was a Ferrari, his car impounded, had to return to France and face another magistrate whose adviser wanted to sell the car and give the proceeds back to the people of France, and ban him for a year!...
OK, think I've got it1) broke law - check
2) got caught - check
3) went through due process of French legal system for level of offence - check
4) prosecuting magistrate pushed for maximum penalty - check
jith said:
..What if he would have been certain that he wasn't speeding, as many stopped in this fashion are? How in the name of god do you defend yourself in a situation like this?...
I've yet to hear a fully convincing story from someone that claims to have been stopped and fined that wasn't speeding. A few people that were speeding a bit and were fined for a greater speed but none that really weren't speeding at all. I drive to Le Mans every year, often pass police traps/cars and have never been stopped but then I've never tried to do twice the speed limit on any section of road...jith said:
...
There are hundreds more examples (of successful legal challenges) from all over the world. If this is not stopped it will get worse, and worse, until we will not be permitted to enjoy our beautiful cars anywhere...
I'm not sure I follow your logic. Are you suggesting that eventually speed cameras will reduce speed limits to 0MPH so it will be illegal to drive?There are hundreds more examples (of successful legal challenges) from all over the world. If this is not stopped it will get worse, and worse, until we will not be permitted to enjoy our beautiful cars anywhere...
I can see a case for them stopping people speeding (AKA: breaking the law) on the public highway and those of us that aren't complete retarts keeping the speeding for the racetrack but other than that...
Or are you suggesting some ban based on the subjective visual qualities of the vehicle ("our beautiful cars"). Pick up something ugly like a BMW 6-series and you can seed as fast as you like but buy an Aston and you won't be permitted on the road?
jith said:
...Yes, there are lunatics driving, seriously degraded drivers and drivers who are simply just not suited to controlling a vehicle. The answer to all of this is proper and appropriate driver training.
Speed enforcement has never worked and never will, because it does not address the essence of the causation of accidents.
Those of you who do not see why this kind of government abuse should not be vehemently opposed seriously need to examine your social conscience.
Social conscience examined and found to be quite perky/balanced and not at all blinkered or enclined paranoia.Speed enforcement has never worked and never will, because it does not address the essence of the causation of accidents.
Those of you who do not see why this kind of government abuse should not be vehemently opposed seriously need to examine your social conscience.
Yours?
Edited by //j17 on Monday 6th July 23:37
Edited by //j17 on Monday 6th July 23:37
I'm amazed !
All I was trying to do by putting my post on PH was to warn people that no longer will the French police tolerate speeding in France. I never once mentioned Brits, Germans, Latvians or whatever.
I did the crime qnd have paid the penalty;- HOWEVER there are a number of other comments about the case which I will mention which didn't seem to me at the time of posting to be particularly relevant. Given however the debates on every aspect of my experience, I feel like airing them.
Firstly, I know I was not doing 167kph at the time the cop jumped out into the road. I was doing nearer 152 kph. I have a Roadpilot micro-go on which I have not renewed the subscription but use it as a head-up speedometer in all my cars and had only seconds before looked at it.
Secondly, since the autoroute to Le Mans was finished, the traffic on the D138 is incredibly light and on this particular occasion, there was no traffic at all in either direction. I only say this to make the point that whilst acknowledging I was breaking the law, it was in no way dangerous. My sat-nav showed me there were no intersections, and the road, and I am sure many of you will know it, is as straight as a die, with only fields either side.
There was no point in arguing the speed with the gendarmes as they showed me the reading on the gun as 167kph. This by the way, in my opinion did not neccesarily show the speed of MY car. Some four and a half hours later, in the police station at Oisseau Le Petit, the gun was still showing 167 kph.
I asked them when the speed gun had last been calibrated and they replied February 2009. I said that in England I thought they had to be calibrated each morning before use. They replied that in France it is only neccessay to do it once a year.
Having gone through all the paperwork, I was obliged to make a statement. The police drafted it and I asked for some changes. For instance it originally said that I was "racing" on the public highway which I was patently not. I asked the cop to add that I was extremely sorry that I had broken the law and that it wouldn't happen again. He refused to put this in. Eventually, they asked me to sign it and I refused, saying this did not represent what was to be my personal statement. They told me that if I didn't sign it it would be worse for me and that in any event, I couldn't be released until I did sign it.
Having signed it I asked for a copy. They said no, I couldn't have a copy and that in France they were not obliged to provide one.I said that if I were to employ an attorney, he would need to see exactly what I had signed. Still they said no;- and I didn't get one. Nor, when I appeared in Court last Tuesday, would they give me a copy of what had been put in front of he Prefect (magistrate).
As a point of interest, at the Court in Mamers, there were 51 speeding cases heard on the day. Luckily, and thanks to my cute,lady translator from Le Mans, we were the first case heard. Out of interest, there were 5 cases of Brits speeding but the other 4 didn't turn up, nor did they write to the Court. The remainder were all French and at least 6 of them that I know of from chatting before the Court convened, were going considerably faster than I was, but did not have their cars impounded.
Lastly and now for me the most irritating, is that the magistrate said I could have my car back on Sunday 12 July. Yesterday, I booked and paid for 2 train tickets for my wife and myself from Asford to Paris and then to Le Mans, and a hotel in Le Mans for the Sunday night. I asked my translator to ring the Court and find out when they sent out the case papers (which include the release document I need to present to the Police Pound in Le Mans). She has just come back to me to say the Court won't say when the papers will be sent but without the release document, I can't have my car back. So there is a distinct possibility that I will have wasted another £450.00 on train fares, hotel and ferry. This brings the total to £3150.00.
I'm not really sure the punishment here fits the crime;- but maybe I'm wrong !
Jules
All I was trying to do by putting my post on PH was to warn people that no longer will the French police tolerate speeding in France. I never once mentioned Brits, Germans, Latvians or whatever.
I did the crime qnd have paid the penalty;- HOWEVER there are a number of other comments about the case which I will mention which didn't seem to me at the time of posting to be particularly relevant. Given however the debates on every aspect of my experience, I feel like airing them.
Firstly, I know I was not doing 167kph at the time the cop jumped out into the road. I was doing nearer 152 kph. I have a Roadpilot micro-go on which I have not renewed the subscription but use it as a head-up speedometer in all my cars and had only seconds before looked at it.
Secondly, since the autoroute to Le Mans was finished, the traffic on the D138 is incredibly light and on this particular occasion, there was no traffic at all in either direction. I only say this to make the point that whilst acknowledging I was breaking the law, it was in no way dangerous. My sat-nav showed me there were no intersections, and the road, and I am sure many of you will know it, is as straight as a die, with only fields either side.
There was no point in arguing the speed with the gendarmes as they showed me the reading on the gun as 167kph. This by the way, in my opinion did not neccesarily show the speed of MY car. Some four and a half hours later, in the police station at Oisseau Le Petit, the gun was still showing 167 kph.
I asked them when the speed gun had last been calibrated and they replied February 2009. I said that in England I thought they had to be calibrated each morning before use. They replied that in France it is only neccessay to do it once a year.
Having gone through all the paperwork, I was obliged to make a statement. The police drafted it and I asked for some changes. For instance it originally said that I was "racing" on the public highway which I was patently not. I asked the cop to add that I was extremely sorry that I had broken the law and that it wouldn't happen again. He refused to put this in. Eventually, they asked me to sign it and I refused, saying this did not represent what was to be my personal statement. They told me that if I didn't sign it it would be worse for me and that in any event, I couldn't be released until I did sign it.
Having signed it I asked for a copy. They said no, I couldn't have a copy and that in France they were not obliged to provide one.I said that if I were to employ an attorney, he would need to see exactly what I had signed. Still they said no;- and I didn't get one. Nor, when I appeared in Court last Tuesday, would they give me a copy of what had been put in front of he Prefect (magistrate).
As a point of interest, at the Court in Mamers, there were 51 speeding cases heard on the day. Luckily, and thanks to my cute,lady translator from Le Mans, we were the first case heard. Out of interest, there were 5 cases of Brits speeding but the other 4 didn't turn up, nor did they write to the Court. The remainder were all French and at least 6 of them that I know of from chatting before the Court convened, were going considerably faster than I was, but did not have their cars impounded.
Lastly and now for me the most irritating, is that the magistrate said I could have my car back on Sunday 12 July. Yesterday, I booked and paid for 2 train tickets for my wife and myself from Asford to Paris and then to Le Mans, and a hotel in Le Mans for the Sunday night. I asked my translator to ring the Court and find out when they sent out the case papers (which include the release document I need to present to the Police Pound in Le Mans). She has just come back to me to say the Court won't say when the papers will be sent but without the release document, I can't have my car back. So there is a distinct possibility that I will have wasted another £450.00 on train fares, hotel and ferry. This brings the total to £3150.00.
I'm not really sure the punishment here fits the crime;- but maybe I'm wrong !
Jules
//j17 said:
jith said:
How do we deal with this "thing" about speeding? This is the million dollar question.
Well the usual system in a democratic country is for the peoples elected representitives to pass legislation, defining speed limits, applying these to sections of highway and then listing the penalties for exceeding these speeds.Not seeing anything too complicated there. Just usual democratic law-making process.
But what is it in a Bureaucratic Dictatorship?
And if you find a democracy how do you know?
If the majority of the 'people's representatives' have been but in place by just 15% of the population, for example, does that really count as a democracy?
If those 'representatives' decide that things historic are unimportant (especially cars, destroyers of the planet ....) and vote to have them removed from their owners and destroyed would that be acceptable as a 'democratic' decision?
I could see the current crowd of 'lawmakers', elected or not, pushing that sort of legislation through without people realising it. But it would be OK because about 1 in 6 people 'voted' for them thus empowering whatever variety of social change they wished to engineer.
The thing about Democracy is that it isn't really democratic unless you force people to vote. Which is hardly democratic in the sense we understand it.
jules martin said:
Could somebody be kind enough to send this back to where I originally posted it as I agree with you it doesn't really belonhg here. BTW Am going to take my TR6 next year, should help to avoids the troubles !
Jules
I am sorry if you thought I acted out of turn Jules, but the principles here are extremely important, and I posted on this forum because a great many readers never go to the SP&L forum and would have missed this.Jules
I hope you get your problems resolved ASAP; let us know if everything works out ok.
LongQ said:
//j17 said:
jith said:
How do we deal with this "thing" about speeding? This is the million dollar question.
Well the usual system in a democratic country is for the peoples elected representitives to pass legislation, defining speed limits, applying these to sections of highway and then listing the penalties for exceeding these speeds.Not seeing anything too complicated there. Just usual democratic law-making process.
But what is it in a Bureaucratic Dictatorship?
And if you find a democracy how do you know?
If the majority of the 'people's representatives' have been but in place by just 15% of the population, for example, does that really count as a democracy?
LongQ said:
If those 'representatives' decide that things historic are unimportant (especially cars, destroyers of the planet ....) and vote to have them removed from their owners and destroyed would that be acceptable as a 'democratic' decision?
I could see the current crowd of 'lawmakers', elected or not, pushing that sort of legislation through without people realising it. But it would be OK because about 1 in 6 people 'voted' for them thus empowering whatever variety of social change they wished to engineer.
No it's not "OK because about 1 in 6 people 'voted' for them", it's OK because 3 in 6 people were too lazy to get off their fat arses and spend 15 minutes walking to the local polling office to play their part in the electoral process. If you don't vote, you don't have a voice.I could see the current crowd of 'lawmakers', elected or not, pushing that sort of legislation through without people realising it. But it would be OK because about 1 in 6 people 'voted' for them thus empowering whatever variety of social change they wished to engineer.
LongQ said:
The thing about Democracy is that it isn't really democratic unless you force people to vote. Which is hardly democratic in the sense we understand it.
Are you saying that Australia and Switzerland aren't democratic countries? I'd have said they were, even if Australis is hugely racist - and they both have a forcable participation electral system.In fact Switzerland ranks 8th and Australia 10th in The Economist world democracy index. The US is at 18th with the UK down at 21st.
Edited by //j17 on Tuesday 7th July 11:47
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff