1928 Fiat - gear oil?
Discussion
Hi, I have just acquired a 1928 Fiat 509a, my first pre-war vehicle.
Can anyone please tell me what the modern replacement for Gargoyle Mobiloil'C' is? The existing gear and axle oil is pretty thick, and looks like SAE140 to me, but I would rather be sure than take a guess.
Thanks in advance,
CB
Can anyone please tell me what the modern replacement for Gargoyle Mobiloil'C' is? The existing gear and axle oil is pretty thick, and looks like SAE140 to me, but I would rather be sure than take a guess.
Thanks in advance,
CB
This vintage tractor manual reckons it's SAE160 (page 20 PDF numbering or 18 original numbering).
Thank you for your replies – whatever is in my gearbox, SAE 30 it aint! The (1928) service instructions say Gargoyl Mobiloil ‘C’ for both ‘box and axle, so I will look for SAE 160, or possibly go with 140 as it is hard enough to change gear when cold as it is.
What is the problem with using modern engine oil? I realise that it cleans out decades of sludge and circulates the muck around the engine, but my engine has been rebuilt and is clean inside. Are there other problems with modern oil that I should be aware of?
Fingers crossed, a picture of the Fiat should/might appear next, if I get the code right!
Thanks again,
CB
What is the problem with using modern engine oil? I realise that it cleans out decades of sludge and circulates the muck around the engine, but my engine has been rebuilt and is clean inside. Are there other problems with modern oil that I should be aware of?
Fingers crossed, a picture of the Fiat should/might appear next, if I get the code right!
Thanks again,
CB
Edited by Cobalt Blue on Monday 13th April 21:48
Edited by Cobalt Blue on Monday 13th April 21:54
Edited by Cobalt Blue on Monday 13th April 21:57
Modern EP (extreme pressure) gear oils contain additives to cope with the high shear conditions present with hypoid (offset axis) gear sets. These additives can attack the alloys often found in older transmissions, particularly bronze. For this reason you should never use EP oils in an old car, and in any case the straight cut or simple spiral bevel gearsets don't challenge the oil film in the way that modern hypoid gearsets do.
In my experience, selecting the correct viscosity for an old car is a trade-off between ease of (cold) gearchange vs the inevitable leak rate....
Nice Fiat BTW - a very sporting commercial!
In my experience, selecting the correct viscosity for an old car is a trade-off between ease of (cold) gearchange vs the inevitable leak rate....
Nice Fiat BTW - a very sporting commercial!
friederich said:
Modern EP (extreme pressure) gear oils contain additives to cope with the high shear conditions present with hypoid (offset axis) gear sets. These additives can attack the alloys often found in older transmissions, particularly bronze. For this reason you should never use EP oils in an old car, and in any case the straight cut or simple spiral bevel gearsets don't challenge the oil film in the way that modern hypoid gearsets do.
In my experience, selecting the correct viscosity for an old car is a trade-off between ease of (cold) gearchange vs the inevitable leak rate....
Nice Fiat BTW - a very sporting commercial!
Spot on, also modern oils are full of additives some of which will cause corrosion to bronze bushes. (Oh you said that already)In addition you would end up with an axle/gearbox full of froth. Stick to the vintage oil blends for best performance and change those oils on an regular basis. Engine oil every 1000 miles, other oils evry 2000 miles is my advise.In my experience, selecting the correct viscosity for an old car is a trade-off between ease of (cold) gearchange vs the inevitable leak rate....
Nice Fiat BTW - a very sporting commercial!
Great vintage you have there, enjoy.
A great steer on the oil chaps!
I was about to buy some EP oil on the grounds that it 'must be better than the basic stuff' I'm going with 140 Classic oil, and straight 40 Classic for the engine (I will warm it up before revving the engine, promise!).
Looking at oil company websites, I read that modern oils carry carbon particulates in suspension, so that fine filters can take them out. Something that the mesh filters in vintage engines cannot do. So, my having a clean engine is not the answer to using modern oil after all.
The Fiat has a neat little 990cc engine with an overhead camshaft, driven by upper and lower timing chains that look as though they belong in a front-drive Eldorado! Even so, three gears and 22bhp make the slightest hill feel like a mountain. I will acquire patience - eventually!
CB
I was about to buy some EP oil on the grounds that it 'must be better than the basic stuff' I'm going with 140 Classic oil, and straight 40 Classic for the engine (I will warm it up before revving the engine, promise!).
Looking at oil company websites, I read that modern oils carry carbon particulates in suspension, so that fine filters can take them out. Something that the mesh filters in vintage engines cannot do. So, my having a clean engine is not the answer to using modern oil after all.
The Fiat has a neat little 990cc engine with an overhead camshaft, driven by upper and lower timing chains that look as though they belong in a front-drive Eldorado! Even so, three gears and 22bhp make the slightest hill feel like a mountain. I will acquire patience - eventually!
CB
Keep the old girl well oiled and greased, convince yourself that you are not in an hurry and you will find that driving vintage machines is an extremely relaxing,stress busting pastime. Try to find an appropriate club and the world is your oyster. In the meantime if you do get any questions about the vehicle then fire away, there is a fair few people who visit this site and they are an fountain of knowledge.
Penrite list Transoil 90 for the Fiat 1922-1936 500 series - http://www.penriteoil.com/uk/nextpage.php?navlink=...
A belated update; I've been too busy driving here and there in the Fiat to fire up the computer.
I now have a gallon of 140 gear oil and two gallons of classic 40 oil in my garage. //j17, it is hard to argue with the recommendations of an oil company, but sae 90 seems a bit on the light side for me, given that the 1928 Autocar article said sae 160. I'm not sure how viscosity affects the cushioning and shear resistance in gearboxes and axles, so will stick with the treacle grade for now.
I have patience aplenty: if someone had told me before that I would enjoy driving along country lanes at 35mph, I would have laughed at them. The only issue I have at the moment is the three-speed box - it is like a four-speed with third gear missing. I have to rev the nuts off it in second (22-23mph), wait forever to snick into top and then the engine bogs down on anything but a dead level road. It can take a minute or more to reach 30mph on a slight incline. Being tailgated by a tractor is not quite as stressbusting as I envisaged. I don't want to hot-rod the thing, and changing gear ratios could be an 'interesting project'. I know - nitrous oxide in a short burst to overcome the dead spot (I'm joking)
On the open road, it holds 40 OK, although 35 is quieter and probably kinder to the engine. Much over 40 is thrashing it, although the 509s managed 57mph on the same gearing (at 4,600rpm), so I'm probably being conservative here.
Those massive timing chains have no tensioners, and sound as though they are trying to saw their way out of the crankcase. I was given new chains with the car, but told that the existing chains were not worn. A German company http://www.oldtimer-rehberger.com/en/restaurierung... made up tensioners for a sports/racing 509s, but it looks as though they put them on the loaded side of the chains! I will look at making up a frame for tensioners when (or if) I take the head off. It would have to be a clamp-fit in the timing case as I don't want to drill holes in the engine.
I'm really enjoying myself. I've sorted out loose wheelbearings, got slack in the steering box down to 1" at the wheel rim, and racked up about 140 miles in the last few days. Now it is time to slow down and get the oil and grease out - half the car need lubricating every 150 miles!
It is popping-back on the overrun and I cannot remember if that means it is running too rich, or too weak - 20+ years of K-Jetronic have had a dumbing-down effect on me.
Swallow (SS) made sports bodies for the 509 when competition from MG made their Swallow bodied Cowleys hard to sell (or so I read somewhere).
Stop press - I have just ordered an original 60-page user and maintenance manual from Italian ebay. It is in Italian, so I will also need a dictionary.
Here's a peek at the oily bits - whilst checking the tappet clearances.
I now have a gallon of 140 gear oil and two gallons of classic 40 oil in my garage. //j17, it is hard to argue with the recommendations of an oil company, but sae 90 seems a bit on the light side for me, given that the 1928 Autocar article said sae 160. I'm not sure how viscosity affects the cushioning and shear resistance in gearboxes and axles, so will stick with the treacle grade for now.
I have patience aplenty: if someone had told me before that I would enjoy driving along country lanes at 35mph, I would have laughed at them. The only issue I have at the moment is the three-speed box - it is like a four-speed with third gear missing. I have to rev the nuts off it in second (22-23mph), wait forever to snick into top and then the engine bogs down on anything but a dead level road. It can take a minute or more to reach 30mph on a slight incline. Being tailgated by a tractor is not quite as stressbusting as I envisaged. I don't want to hot-rod the thing, and changing gear ratios could be an 'interesting project'. I know - nitrous oxide in a short burst to overcome the dead spot (I'm joking)
On the open road, it holds 40 OK, although 35 is quieter and probably kinder to the engine. Much over 40 is thrashing it, although the 509s managed 57mph on the same gearing (at 4,600rpm), so I'm probably being conservative here.
Those massive timing chains have no tensioners, and sound as though they are trying to saw their way out of the crankcase. I was given new chains with the car, but told that the existing chains were not worn. A German company http://www.oldtimer-rehberger.com/en/restaurierung... made up tensioners for a sports/racing 509s, but it looks as though they put them on the loaded side of the chains! I will look at making up a frame for tensioners when (or if) I take the head off. It would have to be a clamp-fit in the timing case as I don't want to drill holes in the engine.
I'm really enjoying myself. I've sorted out loose wheelbearings, got slack in the steering box down to 1" at the wheel rim, and racked up about 140 miles in the last few days. Now it is time to slow down and get the oil and grease out - half the car need lubricating every 150 miles!
It is popping-back on the overrun and I cannot remember if that means it is running too rich, or too weak - 20+ years of K-Jetronic have had a dumbing-down effect on me.
Swallow (SS) made sports bodies for the 509 when competition from MG made their Swallow bodied Cowleys hard to sell (or so I read somewhere).
Stop press - I have just ordered an original 60-page user and maintenance manual from Italian ebay. It is in Italian, so I will also need a dictionary.
Here's a peek at the oily bits - whilst checking the tappet clearances.
Edited by Cobalt Blue on Friday 17th April 23:33
Sounds like your really into vintage motoring, its an dreadful hobby is'nt it! The gear ratio's sound just like virtually every road going vintage gearbox that I have tried, huge gap between 2 and 3rd, I just drive around it, but it can be a minor problem on the slopes. I don't worry to much about keeping to the service schedules in the old books, remember that the roads back then were an nightmare mainly, with dirt / dust / mud. Our roads give the mechanicals an easy time of it. Other than keeping an eye on the oils and water I tend to grease up 2/3 times a year. Anyway you will soon judge how much grease you need and when as you get used to your vehicle.
My poor little Austin 7 'Swallow' now struggles to hit 37mph and is smoking heavily so a engine rebuild is needed at the end of Summer
The exhaust popping back on the overun, have you tried adjusting the varible advance/retard levers whilst on the move. IIRC to far advanced can cause popping back through the exaust box.
My poor little Austin 7 'Swallow' now struggles to hit 37mph and is smoking heavily so a engine rebuild is needed at the end of Summer
The exhaust popping back on the overun, have you tried adjusting the varible advance/retard levers whilst on the move. IIRC to far advanced can cause popping back through the exaust box.
Edited by crankedup on Saturday 18th April 12:09
Hi crankedup,
I *think* I tried retarding the timing, but I'm not sure now. The advance/retard lever is not original and is too big and heavy. It turns with the wheel and tends to flop towards advance or retard, depending on where the steering wheel is at the time. A smaller lever and friction washer is on my to-do list (after putting the garden gate back on its hinges, mowing the foot-high grass etc...)
I'm sorry to hear that your A7 Swallow is not well; a very pretty car if I remember correctly. Could it be stuck rings? Low detergent vintage oil will probably lead to gumming up eventually. The other problem I see is the complete lack of air filter. I bodged up a filter from plastic plumbing fittings, a tupperware container and a cut-down paper element as soon as I started driving the Fiat. It looks horrible, but is only held on by a jubilee clip and a cable tie; a quick snip and the car is back to standard. In the mean time I don't have to worry about the engine ingesting small boulders! I'm now looking for brass plate and copper rivets to make up a 'proper' filter.
The roads around here are/were thick with mud and slurry, but possibly not as bad as in the twenties. Also, the 150-mile lube points, including kingpins and spring shackles, were meant to be oiled, not greased. I expect that grease will last longer in the kingpins than oil.
I tend to avoid main roads and spent a blissful afternoon driving around Long Mountain, near Welshpool. Single lane roads with grass growing in the middle and next to no other traffic. Just the perfect place to drive the old girl, and no-one behind when I come to a hill..
CB
I *think* I tried retarding the timing, but I'm not sure now. The advance/retard lever is not original and is too big and heavy. It turns with the wheel and tends to flop towards advance or retard, depending on where the steering wheel is at the time. A smaller lever and friction washer is on my to-do list (after putting the garden gate back on its hinges, mowing the foot-high grass etc...)
I'm sorry to hear that your A7 Swallow is not well; a very pretty car if I remember correctly. Could it be stuck rings? Low detergent vintage oil will probably lead to gumming up eventually. The other problem I see is the complete lack of air filter. I bodged up a filter from plastic plumbing fittings, a tupperware container and a cut-down paper element as soon as I started driving the Fiat. It looks horrible, but is only held on by a jubilee clip and a cable tie; a quick snip and the car is back to standard. In the mean time I don't have to worry about the engine ingesting small boulders! I'm now looking for brass plate and copper rivets to make up a 'proper' filter.
The roads around here are/were thick with mud and slurry, but possibly not as bad as in the twenties. Also, the 150-mile lube points, including kingpins and spring shackles, were meant to be oiled, not greased. I expect that grease will last longer in the kingpins than oil.
I tend to avoid main roads and spent a blissful afternoon driving around Long Mountain, near Welshpool. Single lane roads with grass growing in the middle and next to no other traffic. Just the perfect place to drive the old girl, and no-one behind when I come to a hill..
CB
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