REALLY fast classics
Discussion
the latest SOTW got me thinking. some of my past cars have been the stuff of madmans dreams at the time but these days are utterly tame. for instance my old 3.0s Capri was the fastest production car of its day yet has the same power as my current Rover P6 3500S which also was lauded for its performance.
Both are, well, to be honest quite slow compared to even a normal hot hatch - 205GTi etc and it got me thinking. Is there a genuinely fast car (i know some tasty 911s are out there) that is tax exempt and considered a classic?
I ask because i am shopping for a new classic - i love them because they cost literally nothing to run bar petrol and cheap insurance and i really enjoy keeping cars alive and getting to know each ones character. im short on ideas though. Im not against losing originality - RV8 in a spit for instance but am really keen on having a car that will really go for it when called upon.
Does such a thing exist short of an engine transplant? if so is there an easy to use mule? YB engined mk 1/2 escorts go for silly money and i cant afford that much as id love one! am i likely to find anything that can deliver a <6 sec 0-60 with a 'historic vehicle' disc in the window? im happy to put my hand in my pocket for such a beast - but think as i might i cant think!
Any ideas?
Both are, well, to be honest quite slow compared to even a normal hot hatch - 205GTi etc and it got me thinking. Is there a genuinely fast car (i know some tasty 911s are out there) that is tax exempt and considered a classic?
I ask because i am shopping for a new classic - i love them because they cost literally nothing to run bar petrol and cheap insurance and i really enjoy keeping cars alive and getting to know each ones character. im short on ideas though. Im not against losing originality - RV8 in a spit for instance but am really keen on having a car that will really go for it when called upon.
Does such a thing exist short of an engine transplant? if so is there an easy to use mule? YB engined mk 1/2 escorts go for silly money and i cant afford that much as id love one! am i likely to find anything that can deliver a <6 sec 0-60 with a 'historic vehicle' disc in the window? im happy to put my hand in my pocket for such a beast - but think as i might i cant think!
Any ideas?
paolow said:
Is there a genuinely fast car that is tax exempt and considered a classic?
427 'vette, 427 Cobra, Ferrari Daytona, Lambo Muira.....However, if you mean affordable really fast.........err, not really.
Only thing I can think off is a pre-73 MGB or BGT with a RV8 transplant and serious chassis work.
I used to compete in sprints against a guy with a BGT-V8, and it was v.quick and stopped and handled very well. No problem with parts either.
Can't think of much else at the moment.
paolow said:
am i likely to find anything that can deliver a <6 sec 0-60 with a 'historic vehicle' disc in the window? im happy to put my hand in my pocket for such a beast - but think as i might i cant think!
Any ideas?
An XKSS was doing mid 5s to 60 in 1957. But they're rather rare and you'd need some very deep pockets.Any ideas?
Lotus Elan's and Europa's are pretty quick. Some Europa's have been modified by Banks Service Station and are 200+BHP, normally from Vauxhall 16V units. Not sure what the performance is like, but with a car that light, I wouldn't be surprised if it was around 10 seconds for 0-100MPH. Last time I remember seeing one for sale, it was around £15-20K.
OPC100 said:
Lotus Elan's and Europa's are pretty quick. Some Europa's have been modified by Banks Service Station and are 200+BHP, normally from Vauxhall 16V units. Not sure what the performance is like, but with a car that light, I wouldn't be surprised if it was around 10 seconds for 0-100MPH. Last time I remember seeing one for sale, it was around £15-20K.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/273585.htmJust looked in the classifieds and saw this. 240BHP and £20K. Now sold.
OPC100 said:
Lotus Elan's and Europa's are pretty quick.
A mildly tuned Elan Sprint (like mine) will give you 0-60 in about 6-6.5 seconds and 0-100 in about 17 seconds, so on paper it's about on a par with current generation hot hatchbacks, but the performance figures only tell half the story.Elans run on 155 section, 70 profile tyres and have 4-speed boxes that are geared to flat out in top at about 120mph.
Unless you seriously modify them (to the point where they're a mere pastiche of the original car) there's no way they could come close to staying with a decent modern sports car of Elise/Boxster/S2000 calibre, let alone anythingreally fast.
The same goes for Cobras, Daytonas, E-types and Miuras; if you tried to keep pace with well-driven decent modern sportscars on any sort of challenging road, you'd end up badly humiliated or dead. It'll murder an MX5 and I've kept up with Elises in my Elan, but only by driving it to the ragged edge and only against drivers who, to be honest, were no great shakes. Put it up against £3K's worth of Subaru Impreza, and you'd stand no chance...
The better classics are hugely entertaining and feel fast, where a modern UberSaloon would feel as though it was loafing, but technology has advanced to the point where you're kidding yourself if you think they'd be able to keep pace in the real world.
Obviously there no end of mega-buck exotica that is properly fast, but the Bristol 411 was apparently the fastest true four-seater of it's day. They're good for over 140mph, and 0-60 in about 7 seconds or less, which is pretty fast. Earlier ones are tax-free, and usable cars can be had for £10k.
There are a number of 60's/70's classics that can quite easily be modified. A big Healey is a good example, 220bhp is quite obtainable from a 3 litre car and they weigh not much more than a tonne. Not cheap but keeps its value and it's great fun seeing off modern stuff. You could do something similar with a TR4, a Tiger and probably others.
You can spend money on a number of cars and modify them later. If replicas are to be included do we need two or four seats, and what is the budget? I was thinking of a RAM XKSS in fibreglass which wouldn't be too dear and then add some money to get the engine breathed on. My Lynx now has over 300bhp and 400 lb/ft of torqu turning it into a seriously quick car. The Costello MGB comes to mind, the first V8 engined cars with a circular hump on the bonnet but they are quite rare now but you could buy an MGB and have the conversion carried out instead. An MGBGT so converted would be a practical every day car too. If fuel doesn't matter and comfort does a V12 XJ6 is no slouch either!
As everyone has said, the exotica of the day will still be quick- 160mph was the top speed of my tax exempt car, but the handling and brakes are still 1970s.
If you look at the racing cars, the likes of Morgan +8 and MGB can be made to go very quickly, althoguh I'm not too sure how road-like they still are.
remember that old cars are very light, and with modern power and modern grip, they become very potent weapons.
If you look at the racing cars, the likes of Morgan +8 and MGB can be made to go very quickly, althoguh I'm not too sure how road-like they still are.
remember that old cars are very light, and with modern power and modern grip, they become very potent weapons.
Place I used to work, the machine shop steward had a Trimuph Spitfire with a Doli Sprint engine. His was putting out 150BHP and was lighter than the standard car. When I had a Sprint, one of the guys at the owners club had a Sprint which was putting out over 220BHP, he used to build F1 engines for Hart. He's said that doing that in a Spitfire would be much easier than trying to fit the plumbing under the bonnet of a Doli, he needed to remove his exhaust manifold to get at one of the spark plugs :-)
That Sprint was doing 60 in the mid 5s range, his hobby was hunting Cossies.
A Spit should be quick as it would be a lot lighter.
That Sprint was doing 60 in the mid 5s range, his hobby was hunting Cossies.
A Spit should be quick as it would be a lot lighter.
...but I thought the chassis was scary.....but I was comparing it to my RS2000 that I had at the time.paolow said:
the latest SOTW got me thinking. some of my past cars have been the stuff of madmans dreams at the time but these days are utterly tame. for instance my old 3.0s Capri was the fastest production car of its day
Not too sure on fastest of its day... lots of quick cars.paolow said:
yet has the same power as my current Rover P6 3500S which also was lauded for its performance.
Both are, well, to be honest quite slow compared to even a normal hot hatch - 205GTi etc and it got me thinking. Is there a genuinely fast car (i know some tasty 911s are out there) that is tax exempt and considered a classic?
I ask because i am shopping for a new classic - i love them because they cost literally nothing to run bar petrol and cheap insurance and i really enjoy keeping cars alive and getting to know each ones character. im short on ideas though. Im not against losing originality - RV8 in a spit for instance but am really keen on having a car that will really go for it when called upon.
Does such a thing exist short of an engine transplant? if so is there an easy to use mule? YB engined mk 1/2 escorts go for silly money and i cant afford that much as id love one! am i likely to find anything that can deliver a <6 sec 0-60 with a 'historic vehicle' disc in the window? im happy to put my hand in my pocket for such a beast - but think as i might i cant think!
Any ideas?
How much money?? and how original?Both are, well, to be honest quite slow compared to even a normal hot hatch - 205GTi etc and it got me thinking. Is there a genuinely fast car (i know some tasty 911s are out there) that is tax exempt and considered a classic?
I ask because i am shopping for a new classic - i love them because they cost literally nothing to run bar petrol and cheap insurance and i really enjoy keeping cars alive and getting to know each ones character. im short on ideas though. Im not against losing originality - RV8 in a spit for instance but am really keen on having a car that will really go for it when called upon.
Does such a thing exist short of an engine transplant? if so is there an easy to use mule? YB engined mk 1/2 escorts go for silly money and i cant afford that much as id love one! am i likely to find anything that can deliver a <6 sec 0-60 with a 'historic vehicle' disc in the window? im happy to put my hand in my pocket for such a beast - but think as i might i cant think!
Any ideas?
Dynamically most modern cars are going to be quicker/faster.
But that's not to say a classic can't be.
If you want HP - look to the USA.
Some very very fast muscle and pony cars, quick enough over the 1/4 mile to shame what are even considered fast cars by today's standards.
Example, a 1973 Trans Am 455 SD was capable of 13.9 1/4 mile @ 103mph. A Boxster S won't do any better.
However you'll need to invest in brakes and suspension if you want better A to B ability.
Other cars of similar ilk will be Vettes, Cobra's (or replica's).
On the replica theme there are some tasty Austin Healey replica's too (Sebring).
Mustangs, Chargers, Challengers, Roadrunners, etc. All fast stock and capable of being very fast.
If you want something home grown then there are Lotus's. I once saw a very nice Elan +2 running a 240bhp Zetec motor. But the original Elan or Europa could be considered, but most will take a fair amount of ££££
You have the MGB V8 but a better bet would be a TR7 V8. You can pick them up for sensible money. The under pinnings are actually pretty modern and rather capable.
No reason you couldn't swap in a 4.6 from an RR or even a fully built 5.3 litre. And make a TVR on a budget, sadly the TR7 won't be pre-73 though.
In short ANY car can be made to go fast, providing you spend enough ££££ on it.
300bhp/ton said:
No reason you couldn't swap in a 4.6 from an RR or even a fully built 5.3 litre. And make a TVR on a budget
That may have worked back in 2000 (I sort of did the sums for the B back then) but at the current price level of Griffmaeras that are vastly more advanced in their basic mechanical configuration (if not detail execution 
) everything beyond a very basic backyard conversion using a 3.5 off the wreckers yard doesn't look all that good value anymore. 900T-R said:
300bhp/ton said:
No reason you couldn't swap in a 4.6 from an RR or even a fully built 5.3 litre. And make a TVR on a budget
That may have worked back in 2000 (I sort of did the sums for the B back then) but at the current price level of Griffmaeras that are vastly more advanced in their basic mechanical configuration (if not detail execution ) everything beyond a very basic backyard conversion using a 3.5 off the wreckers yard doesn't look all that good value anymore. Personally I feel the MGB is not ideal, too old and compromised in basic design, so requires huge amounts of work to make it perform.
The TR7 on the other hand is a much better starting point.
If you can buy a solid Tr7 coupe already converted to a V8 then all you need to do if find a V8 out of a RR (4.6) swap on some decent heads (V8 Developments) and chuck in a silly cam. Chances are it'll out perform a 5.0 litre Griff.
But yep you'll need plenty of £££
Moikey Fortune said:
Sunbeam Tiger Mark1
The OP said he can't afford a Cossie YB engined Mk1 Escort, as much as he would like one .........so a Tiger is going to be finacially out of reach too.....as will most other decent fast cars that are VED free I'm afraid.Quick-ish and weekend fun with free VED on a reasonable budget can be had....but modern FAST with free VED can't be had on a limited budget IMHO.
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