Very interesting Jag- what do you think Lowdrag?
Discussion
Found this Mk11 on E bay.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&am...
I recall talking about the short stroke 2.4 and 2.8 blocks on here before on an article about Mk 1s.
This car has had that treatment and it is very interesting how it has turned out.
The accompanying articles with the ad say that a 2.4 block was used with a 2.8 crank. I'm not so sure about that from the pics. The engine looks very high in the bay to be a 2.4 and the water pump definitely looks like a larger XJ6 pump, although that could have been fitted. Either way it is a beautiful conversion and I like the way a 3 carb manifold from a 4.2 has been utilised to mount the throttle bodies on; the induction note with three K&Ns must be utterly wonderful! I note the use of an auxiliary air valve from an early Bosch system, probably D Jet, mounted on the inlet cam cover.
I think nowadays with modern driving conditions and fuel costs, there is a very powerful argument for this kind of conversion, particularly for economy.
When you think of the cost of a new Jag, BMW, Audi, etc, it seems a steal.
Interior is beautiful, but driving it must be the best part!!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&am...
I recall talking about the short stroke 2.4 and 2.8 blocks on here before on an article about Mk 1s.
This car has had that treatment and it is very interesting how it has turned out.
The accompanying articles with the ad say that a 2.4 block was used with a 2.8 crank. I'm not so sure about that from the pics. The engine looks very high in the bay to be a 2.4 and the water pump definitely looks like a larger XJ6 pump, although that could have been fitted. Either way it is a beautiful conversion and I like the way a 3 carb manifold from a 4.2 has been utilised to mount the throttle bodies on; the induction note with three K&Ns must be utterly wonderful! I note the use of an auxiliary air valve from an early Bosch system, probably D Jet, mounted on the inlet cam cover.
I think nowadays with modern driving conditions and fuel costs, there is a very powerful argument for this kind of conversion, particularly for economy.
When you think of the cost of a new Jag, BMW, Audi, etc, it seems a steal.
Interior is beautiful, but driving it must be the best part!!
The problem with modified cars like this is that while they are good to drive and properly sorted they don't actually fetch much money and certainly not what has been put into it. A good 2.4 Mk 2 fetches about £6,000 or half what he is asking. I very much doubt it will sell at that price. Here's a picture of a much modified Mk2 I took at St. Saturnin three years back:-
Yes, it's got a V12 engine shoehorned in! However, neither is up to the value of even a middling 3.8 manual overdrive standard car.
Yes, it's got a V12 engine shoehorned in! However, neither is up to the value of even a middling 3.8 manual overdrive standard car.
Point taken lowdrag, but in all fairness I think there is a world of difference between the V12 powered car and the Mk11 on e bay.
For a start it isn't a 2.4 but is now a 3 litre and, as the article points out, this was a considered development within Jaguar at the time. The huge benefit of using a short stroke engine is the ability to rev and the comparative ease with which it lends itself to pressurised induction, i.e. turbos or blowers.
I always found it puzzling, although distinctly British, that Jaguar were still using SU and Stromberg carbs on huge engines like the V12 when Bosch injection systems were available in mechanical form from the 60s and electronic from around '70 onwards. The advantages are colossal over carbs.
As far as values are concerned, I would think this particular car is worth every penny of the asking price, and will be far cheaper to run than a standard car. The thing about values I think now is much more about personal preference than book or auction room values.
When I had my classic workshop I had people bringing cars in that you wouldn't have given tuppence for, but to them they were beautiful and important in their lives, so they wanted them restored, regardless of the values.
Another enigma for me about Jaguar was how they built in superb drivability in the likes of the E type, but when it came to the saloons, with the exception of the Mk1, they were so insulated from the driver it was ridiculous. The steering ratio on the Mk11 boxes was awful, and the power options made it even worse. Why on earth didn't they fit a rack like the E? This is why modification makes such a difference to a Mk11. In my experience a great many owners felt that this is how the factory should have set them up in the first place.
If I was looking for a Mk11 just now I would jump at the E bay car and enjoy the driving experience much more than on a standard car.
For a start it isn't a 2.4 but is now a 3 litre and, as the article points out, this was a considered development within Jaguar at the time. The huge benefit of using a short stroke engine is the ability to rev and the comparative ease with which it lends itself to pressurised induction, i.e. turbos or blowers.
I always found it puzzling, although distinctly British, that Jaguar were still using SU and Stromberg carbs on huge engines like the V12 when Bosch injection systems were available in mechanical form from the 60s and electronic from around '70 onwards. The advantages are colossal over carbs.
As far as values are concerned, I would think this particular car is worth every penny of the asking price, and will be far cheaper to run than a standard car. The thing about values I think now is much more about personal preference than book or auction room values.
When I had my classic workshop I had people bringing cars in that you wouldn't have given tuppence for, but to them they were beautiful and important in their lives, so they wanted them restored, regardless of the values.
Another enigma for me about Jaguar was how they built in superb drivability in the likes of the E type, but when it came to the saloons, with the exception of the Mk1, they were so insulated from the driver it was ridiculous. The steering ratio on the Mk11 boxes was awful, and the power options made it even worse. Why on earth didn't they fit a rack like the E? This is why modification makes such a difference to a Mk11. In my experience a great many owners felt that this is how the factory should have set them up in the first place.
If I was looking for a Mk11 just now I would jump at the E bay car and enjoy the driving experience much more than on a standard car.
I think we agree but from a different standpoint. I totally agree that this particular car would probably be easier and more fun to drive but the PERCEIVED viewpoint is that it is no longer standard. Just the sight of the cam covers detracts from the aesthetics of the original. I am sure it has substantially more power, is more economical, and so on which really is where people like Henry Pearman and Beacham come from. They put modern Jaguar mechanicals (Beacham in particular) in an old body shell and create a modern classic. I drove a Beacham Mk2 a few years back with the V8 4 litre Jaguar engine in; it had aircon, modern power steering, modified suspension, superb stereo etc and it was spectacular, but I prefer to wrestle with my old cars and have a classic for the classic driving experience. If I want a modern Jaguar I'll buy one but I have no interest in my everyday transport since for me it is just that - transport. Again, we all know that classic motoring is a moneypit but surely buying a Beacham new must be one of the all time sure fired way of halving your money on day one.
I was at the VSCC meeting at Donington a couple of weeks ago and chatted
to many entrants who happen to have serious car collections.
They were very pessimistic about the future value of their classic cars (except at the very top end)
and many were trying to sell 'lesser' cars in their collections; some cited the MK II Jaguar
as being particularly vulnerable. I'm just the messenger here!!
to many entrants who happen to have serious car collections.
They were very pessimistic about the future value of their classic cars (except at the very top end)
and many were trying to sell 'lesser' cars in their collections; some cited the MK II Jaguar
as being particularly vulnerable. I'm just the messenger here!!
I totally agree with you Elderly. Those who can pay several million for a car are in the main immune from the ups and downs of daily life but like the beginning of the 1990's classic cars cannot be immune from amrket forces in general. Fuel consumption, the cost of daily living etc. all contribute to a tightening of the belt. People aren't moving house and for sure, if at that level they are battening down the hatches then surely the classic car market must follow. I watched the results of the Bonham's Monaco auction and it seems to have already started. Two Lynx replicas failed to seel nor did a few other Jaguars and middle priced cars.
Elderly said:
I was at the VSCC meeting at Donington a couple of weeks ago and chatted
to many entrants who happen to have serious car collections.
They were very pessimistic about the future value of their classic cars (except at the very top end)
and many were trying to sell 'lesser' cars in their collections; some cited the MK II Jaguar
as being particularly vulnerable. I'm just the messenger here!!
The Mk2's values have shot up in the last couple of years and in many case are being offered at silly money. If/When values start to drop, I think Mk2s are likely to be a casualty. to many entrants who happen to have serious car collections.
They were very pessimistic about the future value of their classic cars (except at the very top end)
and many were trying to sell 'lesser' cars in their collections; some cited the MK II Jaguar
as being particularly vulnerable. I'm just the messenger here!!
Mk VII's being sold at £50,000 too. I sold my nice Mk VIII five years back for less than a fifth of that and the big saloons aren't usually the most sought after in the Jaguar range either. Mine was also a manual O/D one so a bit more unusual with front disc brake conversion so it would stop! Two years back at Retromobile an alloy bodied XK120 fetched £120,000 and people thought that crazy but now steel bodied cars are fetching a fortune, not far off that figure. I sold my Lynx long nose six months back for £30,000 more than I had paid a year before too and my remaining short nose is now insured for double the price I paid six years back. Crazy money. My flat floor E type someone tried to buy for £75,000 at the top of the last boom and 18 months later chassis 21, an outside locker with over £80,000 of restoration by Southern Classics in it, sold for £21,000 at auction. In the upper strata a C type was sold for £250,000 at the turn of the century and one sold recently (I saw it not long back) for nearly £2 million yet C types were always thought to be worth half the value of a D type. A Ferrari Daytona Spider, bought for £1 million three years back, sold recently for three times that. No, I think the classic market in general is set for a BIG reversal shortly.
Edited by lowdrag on Thursday 19th June 06:28
I think all of us of a suitable age will never forget the Thatcher era and what it did to classics. Her whole style of government appealed to the greed in people and they responded magnificently.
I see this happening again in the not too distant future, although not to anything like the same extent and for different reasons.
The problem with many antique cars is the same as furniture, paintings and sculpture: they don't have to be good to be valuable, and conversely some of the really good ones are not worth much. There seems to be no reason and just a touch of madness to some of these values, but that's life, and it makes for interesting viewing at an auction.
Personally speaking, my joy with these vehicles is tuning and servicing them and then deriving huge satisfaction with the result out on the road; after all that is what they were built for.
You are spot on about Beacham et al, lowdrag. They simply build new cars using old body shells and for me it is a bridge too far. The points I made about the MkII on E bay is that it is just right; not too far removed from the original and still substantially a '60s Jaguar. Incidentally, the ribbed cam covers were far superior to the polished alloy ones in their day as far as oil tightness was concerned, although now with modern modular silicones, perfect seals can be obtained with just about anything. And the polished alloy does look great!!
I see this happening again in the not too distant future, although not to anything like the same extent and for different reasons.
The problem with many antique cars is the same as furniture, paintings and sculpture: they don't have to be good to be valuable, and conversely some of the really good ones are not worth much. There seems to be no reason and just a touch of madness to some of these values, but that's life, and it makes for interesting viewing at an auction.
Personally speaking, my joy with these vehicles is tuning and servicing them and then deriving huge satisfaction with the result out on the road; after all that is what they were built for.
You are spot on about Beacham et al, lowdrag. They simply build new cars using old body shells and for me it is a bridge too far. The points I made about the MkII on E bay is that it is just right; not too far removed from the original and still substantially a '60s Jaguar. Incidentally, the ribbed cam covers were far superior to the polished alloy ones in their day as far as oil tightness was concerned, although now with modern modular silicones, perfect seals can be obtained with just about anything. And the polished alloy does look great!!
Quote :
'As far as values are concerned, I would think this particular car is worth every penny of the asking price, and will be far cheaper to run than a standard car. The thing about values I think now is much more about personal preference than book or auction room values.
When I had my classic workshop I had people bringing cars in that you wouldn't have given tuppence for, but to them they were beautiful and important in their lives, so they wanted them restored, regardless of the values'
End Quote
I think that sums it up perfectly - to a true enthusiast it isn't about what the car's worth it's about the car you want - and that's exactly how it should be.
'As far as values are concerned, I would think this particular car is worth every penny of the asking price, and will be far cheaper to run than a standard car. The thing about values I think now is much more about personal preference than book or auction room values.
When I had my classic workshop I had people bringing cars in that you wouldn't have given tuppence for, but to them they were beautiful and important in their lives, so they wanted them restored, regardless of the values'
End Quote
I think that sums it up perfectly - to a true enthusiast it isn't about what the car's worth it's about the car you want - and that's exactly how it should be.
Edited by restoman on Friday 20th June 16:22
Edited by restoman on Friday 20th June 16:23
I used to have a Doli Sprint, one of the guys at the owners club used to build F1 engines for Hart. He'd built a tuned and balanced exhaust for the Sprint. The only place he could work out to put a pipe for the front cylinder was above the head and it obscured the plug so to change the front spark plug you had to remove the exhaust manifold. Even doing that on a Doli was a pig.
But his car went well, apparently he had about 220BHP at the rear wheels. Said his favourite hobby was upsetting cossies.
But his car went well, apparently he had about 220BHP at the rear wheels. Said his favourite hobby was upsetting cossies.
Hi Jth,Its dinnertime and I`m trawling through piston heads history and found this .The car you mentioned on Ebay, is a car we modified .It is a 3 litre and develops around 200Bhp with full engine management. Quite right it isn`t worth as much as the 3.8, but it was a much cheaper to run and much quicker as many Bmw owners will testify. We built it for a London Chaffeur . We didnt get paid the whole bill as he Died, probably after recieveing my last Invoice. From now on we always ask customers for there medical history !I`m still trying to get the rest of the money....
Let me know if you want any more details on it.Jim Patten did a test on the car for Jaguar World
Let me know if you want any more details on it.Jim Patten did a test on the car for Jaguar World
RW774 said:
Hi Jth,Its dinnertime and I`m trawling through piston heads history and found this .The car you mentioned on Ebay, is a car we modified .It is a 3 litre and develops around 200Bhp with full engine management. Quite right it isn`t worth as much as the 3.8, but it was a much cheaper to run and much quicker as many Bmw owners will testify. We built it for a London Chaffeur . We didnt get paid the whole bill as he Died, probably after recieveing my last Invoice. From now on we always ask customers for there medical history !I`m still trying to get the rest of the money....
Let me know if you want any more details on it.Jim Patten did a test on the car for Jaguar World
Hello RW,Let me know if you want any more details on it.Jim Patten did a test on the car for Jaguar World
It's a small world indeed!
My very first Jaguar at the tender age of nineteen came from a friend of my father's who was a factory trained ex-police Jaguar mechanic. It was a 2.4 Mk1 fitted with a Shorrocks blower and was simply mental, but great fun. The thing that always struck me about the difference between the 2.4s and 3.4s or 3.8s was both the superior weight distribution and handling and the ability to rev of the smaller engined cars.
I always thought it would be a great project to develop the small engine just to see what it would do. So I take my hat off to you for doing it: what a pity you didn't get paid!
I would appreciate any pics you may have of the car for posterity as the E-Bay link has now gone offline.
Did you base the injection on D Jet and what pistons did you use?
Regards.
Hi Jith,
Thanks for the compliments, it was a 2.8 block and crank bored out using 3.8 pistons. This brings the capacity to juct over 3.0.The skirts need trimming, or use slippers and that`s fine. Cooling system includes ally rad and XJ pump, crossflowed I think from memory to enable full use of the core. It had a Mk10 manifold with 3 1 3/4 throttle bodies with home made upturned inlet tracks attached to the big flow air filters . These we made to get the torque figure up. The injector bosses are welded on to the underside of the manifold with the injector tip facing at 45 degress, shrouded, to alloy maximum air mix.Two lambda bosses are welded on the exhaust for tuning.
There is a VW extra air valve for warm up, all run by our management system
At first we ran a big valve head and different cams but it was a real nasty animal on the road and frightened the owner. So we de-tuned it using standard parabolic cams and head. The engine management is something we do in house. We call it `Fast and furious for Flat caps`.
Thanks for the compliments, it was a 2.8 block and crank bored out using 3.8 pistons. This brings the capacity to juct over 3.0.The skirts need trimming, or use slippers and that`s fine. Cooling system includes ally rad and XJ pump, crossflowed I think from memory to enable full use of the core. It had a Mk10 manifold with 3 1 3/4 throttle bodies with home made upturned inlet tracks attached to the big flow air filters . These we made to get the torque figure up. The injector bosses are welded on to the underside of the manifold with the injector tip facing at 45 degress, shrouded, to alloy maximum air mix.Two lambda bosses are welded on the exhaust for tuning.
There is a VW extra air valve for warm up, all run by our management system
At first we ran a big valve head and different cams but it was a real nasty animal on the road and frightened the owner. So we de-tuned it using standard parabolic cams and head. The engine management is something we do in house. We call it `Fast and furious for Flat caps`.
RW774 said:
Hi Jith,
Thanks for the compliments, it was a 2.8 block and crank bored out using 3.8 pistons. This brings the capacity to juct over 3.0.The skirts need trimming, or use slippers and that`s fine. Cooling system includes ally rad and XJ pump, crossflowed I think from memory to enable full use of the core. It had a Mk10 manifold with 3 1 3/4 throttle bodies with home made upturned inlet tracks attached to the big flow air filters . These we made to get the torque figure up. The injector bosses are welded on to the underside of the manifold with the injector tip facing at 45 degress, shrouded, to alloy maximum air mix.Two lambda bosses are welded on the exhaust for tuning.
There is a VW extra air valve for warm up, all run by our management system
At first we ran a big valve head and different cams but it was a real nasty animal on the road and frightened the owner. So we de-tuned it using standard parabolic cams and head. The engine management is something we do in house. We call it `Fast and furious for Flat caps`.
Hi RW,Thanks for the compliments, it was a 2.8 block and crank bored out using 3.8 pistons. This brings the capacity to juct over 3.0.The skirts need trimming, or use slippers and that`s fine. Cooling system includes ally rad and XJ pump, crossflowed I think from memory to enable full use of the core. It had a Mk10 manifold with 3 1 3/4 throttle bodies with home made upturned inlet tracks attached to the big flow air filters . These we made to get the torque figure up. The injector bosses are welded on to the underside of the manifold with the injector tip facing at 45 degress, shrouded, to alloy maximum air mix.Two lambda bosses are welded on the exhaust for tuning.
There is a VW extra air valve for warm up, all run by our management system
At first we ran a big valve head and different cams but it was a real nasty animal on the road and frightened the owner. So we de-tuned it using standard parabolic cams and head. The engine management is something we do in house. We call it `Fast and furious for Flat caps`.
Sorry for the slow reply;just soooo busy just now.
I could rebuild 2.8 engines in my sleep due to the warranty work I carried out when they were new. Almost without exception they would burn a neat hole down through the centre of the piston; occasionally it would melt the piston down the side and score the bore up. Jaguar would send us complete brand new engines, but I decided to investigate and discovered that it was simply pre ignition under high load that was the cause. Bear in mind the 2.8 was red lined at 6500, high for a Jaguar in those days.
The difference in ignition between the 2.8 and 4.2 was the bloody awful dual vacuum distributor they fitted to the 2.8, which could both advance and retard the timing. The problem was the plastic end adaptors for the vacuum control pipes that were of the poorest quality imaginable and were simply a push fit under the manifold. They would perish and fall off instantly advancing the timing at high revs and leaning out the mixture at the cylinder adjacent to the vacuum take off. Result, melted piston!
I bought one of these cars myself with a manual 'box, binned the distributor and set up an older Lucas distributor with Lumenition and neoprene vacuum hose, rebuilt the carbs with better needles and it was a flying machine. Totally tractable and smooth as silk, running all the way up to the rev limit without turning a hair.
Jaguar should have hung their head in shame at the lack of development on this engine, particularly with the potential it offered.
I still fancy getting another 2.8 XJ Series 1 and giving it treatment similar to what you did. It would be very interesting to try it on Bosch K Jet or even mechanical injection to give it a more period feel.
I had plenty of furious flat cap customers, but most of them were decidely slow at getting their wallets out!
sorry for the blatant thread hi-jacl
but a fellow petrol head bought a 3.8 m2 Jag last year , and he sent me these photos , I dont have too many details only that the car cost in the mid 25,000 bracket
the condition is just stunning
I think for the price he got a bargain
but a fellow petrol head bought a 3.8 m2 Jag last year , and he sent me these photos , I dont have too many details only that the car cost in the mid 25,000 bracket
the condition is just stunning
I think for the price he got a bargain
Edited by DBSV8 on Thursday 11th December 08:43
RW774 said:
Hi jith, you obviously know your jags and their problems.Want a Job ? I am expanding even in this climate.
Once again the Prince of darkness( Lucas) casts it evil spell on a good product.Do you remember the Dunlop tyre issue and the V12.High speed blow outs!
I worked on some of the police jags, and the CC decided to buy an XJ12. It positively ate tyres, but the problem with the early cars from memory was the size. Dunlop had worked with Jaguar to develop the SP Sport for the XJ6, and it was made then exclusively for this car; the size was ER 70/VR15. On the first XJs it provided utterly superb grip, particularly in the wet but, although Dunlop never admitted it, it wasn't up to the torque and the top speed of the V12 cars.Once again the Prince of darkness( Lucas) casts it evil spell on a good product.Do you remember the Dunlop tyre issue and the V12.High speed blow outs!
A Series 1 XJ would achieve 150 on the motorway in seconds, it was a real animal, but the tyre problem should have been sorted before the car was launched.
I never understood why there were so many problems with Lucas stuff. When Jaguar finally fitted injection firstly to the XJS they used Bosch D Jet, but instead of simply fitting it they changed some of the ancilliaries and fitted Lucas manufactured components instead: they were the ones that constantly failed! Why did they just not leave the system alone?
Those were the days, eh?
You have mail from me RW.
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