Modernised/continuation classics

[Twincam16]

What's the consensus on these? I happen to like them a lot. I do like classics of the '60s and '70s - the ambience, the way they drive and the 'pen on paper straight into metal' looks, and I've owned a few, but I'll be the first to admit that there are drawbacks - the endless hours on a cold morning trying to breathe some life into a carburettor, hearing the rotor arm churn lethargically in the distributor, waiting for a few pathetic pops that tell you you don't have to charge the battery, the temperature gauge paranoia as soon as you hit traffic, and so on - plenty of drawbacks.

But modernised classics - be they modified originals or 'continuations' remade with modern systems - solve all these problems. I love them. What do you think:

Spyder Elan +2:



Eagle E-Type:



Superformance Daytona Coupe:



Nostalgia NC1000:



Autotune Aristocat 140FH:



Westfield XI:



What's your favourite? And if you had the chance, which classic would you 'continue', or modernise.

I'd take a Spyder Elan (you really could use it every day as your only car no problem, and it's cheaper than the others), 'continue' the Gordon-Keeble GK1, and modernise Mk I Capris - modern Ford V6, real leather and wood interior, premium-quality fittings all round and even replace the Ford badge with my own - that shape always deserved better.

[ELAN+2]

I Kind of understand the appeal for extremley valuable/rare "replicas" but some how the modernised (sanitised!) "classics" are rather like MR2 'ferraris' in my opinion.
With regard to the Elan, to my mind in the original you have a superb chassis with excellent (class leading) handling/ride and one of the most famous engines in the world (the Lotus TwinCam).It's all wrapped up in a stunning (one of the most beautiful cars of its time in my opinion) looking body shell, sadly the shell is the worst part of the car, its almost impossible to eradicate water leaks, it suffers from stress cracking and microblistering(the resin is porous and holds moisture) and the electrics are a challenge to keep in fine fettle.

In essence the Spyder bins/changes the best bits and keeps the worst bits!! Again this is purely my opinion. The finished result is a very capable sports car in its own right but can hardly be called a Lotus. As a result of the taller tyres/wheels and the drain pipe exhaust the car sits too high, like a 4x4!

Europa engineering do a similar thing with the Europa, even Top Gear ested one of those!

[AJAX50]

Failing 1960's cars are usually the result of the classic car syndrome; 5 years of TLC when new then 30 years of cheap and cheerful bodging. A properly maintained car will keep going perfectly (he says touching wood, big Healey with no heating, cooling, starting, stopping or electrical problems and a dynamo). So I'd rather have my Healey, modified with 1960's tecnnology, than say a Sebring replica. I agree that the Elan is a great car, the Lotus twin cam can be made reliable but if more grunt is desired, go for the ultimate period mod., a BDA.

[72twink]

ELAN+2 said:

Stuff

And then the worst thing is when a leading magazine follows and promotes such a "rebuild" - Jerry Thurstons Elan +2 in "Classics" is a prime example, a classic barn find car sporting a Holbay tuned twink complete with it's special cam cover - it's now a Spyder/Zetec/Type 9 car in a modern colour - Such a waste !!!

[ELAN+2]

i agree!! seems to me that the cost of spyderizing a plus2 is greater than restoring one to standard. theend result isn't as valuable/desirable a few yeats on.....madness in my opinion.

[Twincam16]

ELAN+2 said:

i agree!! seems to me that the cost of spyderizing a plus2 is greater than restoring one to standard. theend result isn't as valuable/desirable a few yeats on.....madness in my opinion.

Depends on how you want to use it I suppose - I quite like the idea of using an Elan every day, as an everyday runabout as well as a GT and a sports car. One that doesn't rust anywhere, doesn't overheat, will do 135 mph instead of 120 and will do 35-45 mpg rather than 25-30 mpg seems like a good car to me.

[Sam_68]

I suppose it comes down to whether you will be destroying a valuable original as part of the process.

Most of the cars shown above are replicas... the Westfield Eleven, Superformance, Aristocat and Nostalgia don't cannibalise a whole Lotus Eleven, AC Cobra or whatever, they just use readily available components from the unrestorable wrecks of less valuable cars.

The Spyder Zetec Plus 2 is a nice car - I've been in one, and it feels remarkably like a genuine Lotus Plus 2 - so if you've got a basket case with a rotten chassis and an engine in need of rebuild, I guess it's justifiable. The running gear can go to keep another Elan alive, and it costs about the same to create the Zetec Plus 2 as it would to restore the car back to original 'Lotus' specification. It also makes some sort of sense (just) because a full restoration would cost £12-£15k and give you a car that would be valued at maybe £9.5K (at the moment), whereas a Zetec conversion would cost a similar amount (after you've recovered costs by selling off the redundant running gear), but would be sufficently in demand to attain a re-sale value of close to its 'build' costs.

If you are destroying a car that isn't a basket case, then it's less easy to make a case... and whether the sums will continue to add up with genuine Plus 2 prices gradually climbing is another matter.

[Hooli]

i dont really see the point of taking a real classic & making it basicly a fake. the whole point of classic ownership is the experience isnt it?
i wouldnt put a modern engine in my 30 year old bike for a start.
however if you want the classic feel & fun without a real classic i cant fault & am tempted by some of the 'fakes' with modern running gear.

[plasticpig]

Strnagely enough my classic dosent suffer from any of those problems. I see no problem uprating a classic however. Thinking of doing something next year if I have the cash. Mainly drop a V6 Mustang engine in, 5spd Mustang autobox and get 4 pot calipers and a rear disc conversion. The thing is though this will stil be pretty orignal. The V6 is a just the last development of the engine which is in it already so the engine bay will not need chopping about. The 5spd auto shoud make motorway cruisng a lot more comfortable. I started off doing about 3000 miles a year in the car. Last year I did 7300 so its getting to the point where I feel it justifies some uprating.

[Ferg]

Seems to all-or-nothing.

If the ignition system is poor, why replace the engine?? Etc

Since your list comes into two distinct groups...

1. If you can't make a classic car reliable, leave it to someone who can.

2. 'Replicas' are OK if that's your sort of thing.

[Sam_68]

Ferg said:

If you can't make a classic car reliable, leave it to someone who can.

That rather shows a lack of understanding of old cars in general, old Lotus' in particular, and of the point of the Spyder Plus 2.

Whilst the originals can be made reliable, they can't be made low maintenance... at least not without destroying originality. They need regular and careful attention that many people these days can't afford, or don't wish, to give them, particularly if they are racking up modern mileages as an everyday driver.

I wouldn't destroy a good original car to create one, but I can see the appeal of a Spyder Plus 2... the driving experience is very, very similar to the original (and if you've never driven an Elan, you need to - it's a very special experience, even compared to the most tactile modern sportscars like the Elise), but you don't have to oil the trunnions every 1000 miles, or get underneath to check the Rotoflexes once a month, or adjust the regulator, or balance the carbs, or adjust the timing chain tension... all of which would become a monumental pain in the ass if you were doing 30K miles per annum in the thing as an only car.

And it has a gearbox that isn't screaming it's head off at 80mph like the old 4-speed or suffering from a 30K mile rebuild life and a lousy gearchange like the original 5-speed... issues from the days before we had a motorway network with cruising speeds of 80mph+

There isn't someone who can avoid all these issues simply by being a competent mechanic.

[ELAN+2]

Sam_68 said:

Ferg said:

If you can't make a classic car reliable, leave it to someone who can.

That rather shows a lack of understanding of old cars in general, old Lotus' in particular, and of the point of the Spyder Plus 2.

Whilst the originals can be made reliable, they can't be made low maintenance... at least not without destroying originality. They need regular and careful attention that many people these days can't afford, or don't wish, to give them, particularly if they are racking up modern mileages as an everyday driver.

I wouldn't destroy a good original car to create one, but I can see the appeal of a Spyder Plus 2... the driving experience is very, very similar to the original (and if you've never driven an Elan, you need to - it's a very special experience, even compared to the most tactile modern sportscars like the Elise), but you don't have to oil the trunnions every 1000 miles, or get underneath to check the Rotoflexes once a month, or adjust the regulator, or balance the carbs, or adjust the timing chain tension... all of which would become a monumental pain in the ass if you were doing 30K miles per annum in the thing as an only car.

And it has a gearbox that isn't screaming it's head off at 80mph like the old 4-speed or suffering from a 30K mile rebuild life and a lousy gearchange like the original 5-speed... issues from the days before we had a motorway network with cruising speeds of 80mph+

There isn't someone who can avoid all these issues simply by being a competent mechanic.

there used to be a ball joint conversion to replace the trunnions for triumphs a few years ago, i'll fit these to my plus 2 if they are still available, I've fitted yokohama tyres as the wet weather performance is better than the Dunlop SP Sports that are available to the old pattern, I have also fitted halogen headlamps with an electric lift mechanism and a five speedn box(MT75) with a very positive shift.I'm half sold on the CV joint rear end conversion, but perversley I kind of like the rotoflex wind up effect! It adds to the experience.Electronic ignition is a no brainer as it is on most classics, The electric issues are nearly impossible to solve permenantly (thank Joe Lucas the Prince of Darkness for that) but can be improved with upgraded wire sizes, relays were there are none and better earthing, also the earths and exposed connections need to be sealed from moisture mildly uprating the cooling system makes sense as unleaded fuel burns at a higher temp than the old leaded.Properly set up the carbs shouldn't need twiddling with but the cam chain tension, oil filter and plugs need 3000mile attention, easy enough in half an hour at a week end. I ran one daily with out too many issues. My mum ran a restored one as a commuter car for five years, again without a hitch, oh one upright broke as she pulled ito the drive, but that was it other than routine maintenance, an annual tune up and the odd bulb.

The biggest problem with old cars is inactivity, especially if stored out side, garaged its less of an issue.

[Ferg]

Sam_68 said:

Ferg said:

If you can't make a classic car reliable, leave it to someone who can.

That rather shows a lack of understanding of old cars in general, old Lotus' in particular, and of the point of the Spyder Plus 2.

With all due respect..

You.

I fully understand old cars, thanks and find your tone apallingly offensive.

If a car cannot be made as good as it was when it was new, I'd love to know the reason why.

What you are suggesting is to make it 'better', and THAT is something I NEVER suggested.

[Sam_68]

Elan+2 said:

Stuff

Yes, most things with the Elan/Plus 2 can be solved - even the electrics, if you are prepared to rewire with a new loom (with modern connectors) and a lot of new components; there aren't many Lucas components that can't be replaced with modern alternatives.

Spyder still does a ball joint conversion for the front uprights, I believe.

Rotoflex wind-up isn't a problem, but the quality of replacement donuts these days can be and since the consequences of failure can be dire, they should be checked regularly for signs of splits forming, particularly if you don't have the 'fail-safe' driveshafts.

I'm not precious about reliability mods - I fitted a Spyder spaceframe chasssis to my last Elan and my current car uses electronic ignition and some non-standard electrical components for reliability, but by the time you have finished solving the issues with a 'standard' car, you wouldn't be far off the Spyder Zetec conversion anyway - about the only real difference would be the Lotus Twin Cam engine instead of a Zetec.

The dividing line for me comes when components have been fitted that would enable someone familiar with the Elan to instantly tell without lifting the bonnet or looking underneath that he is driving something non-original. Gearbox or engine conversions cross this line - as do fuel injection and driveshaft conversions, to a lesser extent. Even then, it's not a problem - it's down to individual choice, after all - I just personally think it's a shame if part of the original character of the car - and major original components - are thrown away for no good reason, even though they may still be serviceable. But if a a car is so worn out that it can't economically be refurbished, then I don't see why it shouldn't be given a new lease of life as a Spyder Zetec conversion for someone who wants more modern performance or reliability.

I agree that it's kinder to keep any car in regular use, but for what it's worth my Elan have lived outside for the last couple of years, often standing for a fortnight or more between outings, and has performed very reliably, but then I'm pretty scrupulous about the maintenance and know the electrics inside out.

[Sam_68]

Ferg said:

I find your tone apallingly offensive.

Well, that's all right then, since I found your comment apallingy patronising to people who choose to make modifications to their cars to make them more suitable for current motoring conditions.

Ferg said:

If a car cannot be made as good as it was when it was new, I'd love to know the reason why.

What you are suggesting is to make it 'better', and THAT is something I NEVER suggested.

...and I stand by my comment that you lack an understanding of old cars in general and Lotus in particular.

you said:

if you can't make a classis car reliable, leave it to someone who can

What you fail to understand is that the Lotus models we are talking about never were particularly reliable, even when new. Suggesting that people are inept unless they can make a standard, original car reliable is both nonsense and self-contradictory, since if you make a 60's Lotus genuinely reliable, you are making it better than new!

To make them acceptably reliable as a sole means of transport under modern road conditions inevitably means making non-standard modifications to some greater or lesser degree and it is extremely patronising for the owner of a modern kit-car (which I note is backed-up by a couple of nice, reliable mainstream production cars?) to try to dictate what is or isn't acceptable to people who actually know and understand these cars!

My Elan is pretty much standard, but if I was intending to run it as my everyday car, I'd feel perfectly justified in reserving the right to make modifications for safety, efficiency and reliability if I liked, without some ignorant bystander criticising me for it!

So with all due respect, you too!

[Ferg]

Sam_68 said:

Well, that's all right then, since I found your comment apallingy patronising to people who choose to make modifications to their cars to make them more suitable for current motoring conditions.

Sorry to be patronising.

Ferg said:

If a car cannot be made as good as it was when it was new, I'd love to know the reason why.

What you are suggesting is to make it 'better', and THAT is something I NEVER suggested.

...and I stand by my comment that you lack an understanding of old cars in general and Lotus in particular.

you said:

if you can't make a classis car reliable, leave it to someone who can

Sam_68 said:

What you fail to understand is that the Lotus models we are talking about never were particularly reliable, even when new. Suggesting that people are inept unless they can make a standard, original car reliable is both nonsense and self-contradictory, since if you make a 60's Lotus genuinely reliable, you are making it better than new!

I don't fail to realise that at all. I've owned many, many old cars including two Lotus', but you are continually using words like 'particularly' and 'genuinely'.

I did put in my original post that I couldn't see why it should be all or nothing like the Spyder Elan. If using old cars means essentially putting high percentages of modern parts on then it's a small step to the 'New Mini', 'New' Beetle concept.

I can see the value in upgrading some systems, but to rip the twin-cam out of that car above for a Zetec is surely destroying half the beauty of the car leaving it, 'skin-deep'....

Thanks for checking my profile. I 'currently' have a modern kit-car, yes, because GTM are a long standing love, like Lotus, in fact. I DO have two other cars on there, but 'backed up by' is an odd comment. I bought a Saxo for my son to drive (he can't get insured on the Libra) and I have a Multipla because I have a wife and three kids to move about sometimes...

Sorry if I offended you, but I guess that's what forums do.
I shan't comment on the subject again.

[williamp]

If I can dare to go back to the topic again, of course modernisation of classic cars can be a good thing, there are may levels of it and it has been happening for a long time. In the late 40s and early 50s, the pre-war Rolls, Bentleys, Hispanos etc were worthless-literally. Many were converted into Herse’s, and many more were driven into the ground by students as a cheap form of transport, and modernised to suit.

Now, of course originality is everythign with these cars, and many have been rebuilt using old parts from other cars.

And have you seen some of the 50s and 60s coachwork deisgns? Hideous. And think of Ferraris of the 60s, with their tiny 14in wheels. Should’nt they fit larger period wheels and tyres?

In the Aston world, modifing cars is very well known. Of the 7 “Company developments” Lagonda’s made, six of them have been modernised into modern limousines, with TVs, bigger engines, proper aircon etc. In the Aston world, anything is possible with money. For example, a DB5 is now worth upwards of £150k. But many owners have hiddern modern stereos under the original, single speaker grill. And a great many of them have got larger engines, better brakes, better suspension etc etc. They look like DB5’s, but are very moden to drive. Is it a fashion thing? Just because siome people do it, should everyone, or is it really a desirble preference?

Where it stops is a very fine line. I have no problem in fitting better rear dampers to my DBS V8 to improve driveability and handling. But should I ditch the Bosch fuel injection and fit a modern system for the same reasons?

And then we have classic racing cars. No-one would argue with improving thre safety of raicng cars. But should this involve a roll cage so stiff it helps the handling? Should the dampers be replacd with more modern types? What of electrinic ignition? Not a safety feature, but it makes the car more reliable and therefore, logically we’d see bigger grids.

Its not an easy one, and one which quite frankly there isnt an answer to. Where do you stop? Well, I would hope that rests with the owners of these vehciles, who would use good taste and judgement.

[shouldbworking]

I wouldnt modernise for the reasons stated by the OP. If your car doesnt start in the morning, 60s or not, its because its broken, not because its old. Its not like these cars would have sold originally if they couldnt provide daily transport.

Granted, they may require more maintenance, but if youre a car enthusiast, thats not going to bother you. If youre not a car enthusiast, you arent going to be looking at such a car in the first place, or you are buying it as a status symbol, in which case you should be put against a wall and shot anyway.

[Twincam16]

shouldbworking said:

I wouldnt modernise for the reasons stated by the OP. If your car doesnt start in the morning, 60s or not, its because its broken, not because its old. Its not like these cars would have sold originally if they couldnt provide daily transport.

Granted, they may require more maintenance, but if youre a car enthusiast, thats not going to bother you. If youre not a car enthusiast, you arent going to be looking at such a car in the first place, or you are buying it as a status symbol, in which case you should be put against a wall and shot anyway.

I am undoubtably a car enthusiast and I wouldn't say I am in search of status symbols - but I do feel that there are advantages and disadvantages of modern cars, advantages and disadvantages of classic cars, and that it is actually possible to create a car that is the 'best of both worlds'. In most cases this can be solved with a kit car.

So what if it was a Lotus Elan - not a +2, the 2-seater which was available as a kit.

Now, surely if you'd bought it at the time you could, if you had wanted to, fitted a completely different engine. Lotus Sevens come with all manner of engines as they were up to the owner's choice if you bought one in kit form. Say you'd bought an Elan in 1964 as a kit and decided to fit an Alfa Romeo twin-cam engine instead - who'd be there to stop you? And would that car be any less a Lotus these days if it had had that engine from new?

You hear stories of these Lotus racing cars that have had umpteen engine changes, a different powerplant each time - are they no longer a Lotus?

[shouldbworking]

Twincam16 said:

shouldbworking said:

I wouldnt modernise for the reasons stated by the OP. If your car doesnt start in the morning, 60s or not, its because its broken, not because its old. Its not like these cars would have sold originally if they couldnt provide daily transport.

Granted, they may require more maintenance, but if youre a car enthusiast, thats not going to bother you. If youre not a car enthusiast, you arent going to be looking at such a car in the first place, or you are buying it as a status symbol, in which case you should be put against a wall and shot anyway.

I am undoubtably a car enthusiast and I wouldn't say I am in search of status symbols - but I do feel that there are advantages and disadvantages of modern cars, advantages and disadvantages of classic cars, and that it is actually possible to create a car that is the 'best of both worlds'. In most cases this can be solved with a kit car.

So what if it was a Lotus Elan - not a +2, the 2-seater which was available as a kit.

Now, surely if you'd bought it at the time you could, if you had wanted to, fitted a completely different engine. Lotus Sevens come with all manner of engines as they were up to the owner's choice if you bought one in kit form. Say you'd bought an Elan in 1964 as a kit and decided to fit an Alfa Romeo twin-cam engine instead - who'd be there to stop you? And would that car be any less a Lotus these days if it had had that engine from new?

You hear stories of these Lotus racing cars that have had umpteen engine changes, a different powerplant each time - are they no longer a Lotus?

Ah well that would come under period modifications in my view, which is a whole different ball game. Racing cars are also a bit of a special case as they are expected to undergo changes - although in my view a complete change rather than an evolution is the dividing line.

Say for example I took my Lancia Beta and decided to fit an integrale engine (not really practical or something I would do but hey), id just about call that acceptable as it is an engine directly evolved from the original. Talk about putting in ford or lotus twin cam though and that crosses the boundaries in my mind as they are completely different.

Rereading your post.. kit cars I still feel should be kept in keeping with what was available at their original build date. If i wanted a 'new' lotus 7, id be looking at one of the retro, conservatively styled 7 replicas.