Discussion
I am still researching on the subject of the 1952 Le Mans C types but I am puzzled by one thing. The photo I have of the three cars together shows that the #17, Moss/Walker, has the RAF roundel on the offside front wing but the others don't. I can't seem to find much history on Rob Walker's early life, only his post war career and his own team afterwards so I am woindering if he was in the RAF. Moss wasn't that's for sure. Can anyone help me with this puzzle please?
I'm not sure what you mean, not having followed the C-Type thread. RWR's traditional colours were the white roundel & nose hoop on dark blue - a Google image search would show this on a variety of cars. I'm not sure of the significance/origin of the colour scheme.
Rob (of the Johnnie Walker family) did serve in the RAF, after a while. I think there is a good biography out there, but the two stories I recall are:
- He learned to fly before the war, but the authorities took a dim view of him 'hedge-jumping' at a race course and withdrew his pilot's license.
- During the war fought to be given back his license, on the basis that he was one of the few trained, if untrustworthy, pilots available at a time when they were rather useful. At some point he had an "incident" whereby he injured himself disembarking from his plane. The plane was still in the air at the time. The Doctor's report apparently stated "Fortunately he was well-anaesthetised at the time". I think you can guess that it was probably the family medicine.
It's worth checking these stories, if only because Rob's life was... well-lived, and the biography is supposed to be a cracking read.
Rob (of the Johnnie Walker family) did serve in the RAF, after a while. I think there is a good biography out there, but the two stories I recall are:
- He learned to fly before the war, but the authorities took a dim view of him 'hedge-jumping' at a race course and withdrew his pilot's license.
- During the war fought to be given back his license, on the basis that he was one of the few trained, if untrustworthy, pilots available at a time when they were rather useful. At some point he had an "incident" whereby he injured himself disembarking from his plane. The plane was still in the air at the time. The Doctor's report apparently stated "Fortunately he was well-anaesthetised at the time". I think you can guess that it was probably the family medicine.
It's worth checking these stories, if only because Rob's life was... well-lived, and the biography is supposed to be a cracking read.
lowdrag said:
I am still researching on the subject of the 1952 Le Mans C types but I am puzzled by one thing. The photo I have of the three cars together shows that the #17, Moss/Walker, has the RAF roundel on the offside front wing but the others don't. I can't seem to find much history on Rob Walker's early life, only his post war career and his own team afterwards so I am woindering if he was in the RAF. Moss wasn't that's for sure. Can anyone help me with this puzzle please?
I think there may be some confusion, Rob Walker gave up competitive motorsport at the behest of his wife before 1952 and AFAIK had no involvement with the works Jaguar team. I think the driver is Ian Walker who was a works Jaguar driver at the time. I also think the roundel had nothing to do with the drivers but was an ACO-thing either identifying the nationality or probably the class of the car. Certainly other cars, including the works Astons, also had roundels at Le Mans.Paul Skilleter wrote a good book about the competition Jaguars and I have a copy somewhere - I`ll try and have a look if I can find it.
). But wouldn't a call to Phil Porter be useful???Well, I don't find Harry Potter (as he is known in various circles) that knowledgeable frankly. I remnember seeing 9600 HP just after it was rebuilt when I was judging a concours and asking him various questions about the car, such as why the headlamp buckets were painted silver instead of body colour. That was just one of the questions asked, and he couldn't reply sensibly to one. I have therefore sent an email to Paul Skilleter. I'm sure he'll know. This isn't frivolous, becausae there is a serious reason behind the questions which will come out in a year or so.
ettore said:
lowdrag said:
I am still researching on the subject of the 1952 Le Mans C types but I am puzzled by one thing. The photo I have of the three cars together shows that the #17, Moss/Walker, has the RAF roundel on the offside front wing but the others don't. I can't seem to find much history on Rob Walker's early life, only his post war career and his own team afterwards so I am woindering if he was in the RAF. Moss wasn't that's for sure. Can anyone help me with this puzzle please?
I think there may be some confusion, Rob Walker gave up competitive motorsport at the behest of his wife before 1952 and AFAIK had no involvement with the works Jaguar team. I think the driver is Ian Walker who was a works Jaguar driver at the time. I also think the roundel had nothing to do with the drivers but was an ACO-thing either identifying the nationality or probably the class of the car. Certainly other cars, including the works Astons, also had roundels at Le Mans.Paul Skilleter wrote a good book about the competition Jaguars and I have a copy somewhere - I`ll try and have a look if I can find it.
a8hex said:
ettore said:
lowdrag said:
I am still researching on the subject of the 1952 Le Mans C types but I am puzzled by one thing. The photo I have of the three cars together shows that the #17, Moss/Walker, has the RAF roundel on the offside front wing but the others don't. I can't seem to find much history on Rob Walker's early life, only his post war career and his own team afterwards so I am woindering if he was in the RAF. Moss wasn't that's for sure. Can anyone help me with this puzzle please?
I think there may be some confusion, Rob Walker gave up competitive motorsport at the behest of his wife before 1952 and AFAIK had no involvement with the works Jaguar team. I think the driver is Ian Walker who was a works Jaguar driver at the time. I also think the roundel had nothing to do with the drivers but was an ACO-thing either identifying the nationality or probably the class of the car. Certainly other cars, including the works Astons, also had roundels at Le Mans.Paul Skilleter wrote a good book about the competition Jaguars and I have a copy somewhere - I`ll try and have a look if I can find it.
ettore said:
a8hex said:
Wasn't the driver Peter Walker?
I think you`re right.Sadly the main thing I'm aware of for Rob Walker is that he and Mike Hawthorn were 'dicing' when Mike's car finally left the road.
I could be wrong here but I think Rob Walker ran racing teams in the 50s, Peter sometimes drove for Rob. I seem to remember that in 1952 (the year of interest to lowdrag's project) that Rob Walker was involved with Aston Martin's Le Mans effort.
[edited to add]
OK, I should google before I type I guess.
There's a Wikipedia page about his team http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Walker_Racing_Team
but as lowdrag points out, no early history.
Edited by a8hex on Monday 12th November 22:40
lowdrag said:
Well, I don't find Harry Potter (as he is known in various circles) that knowledgeable frankly. I remnember seeing 9600 HP just after it was rebuilt when I was judging a concours and asking him various questions about the car, such as why the headlamp buckets were painted silver instead of body colour. That was just one of the questions asked, and he couldn't reply sensibly to one. I have therefore sent an email to Paul Skilleter. I'm sure he'll know. This isn't frivolous, becausae there is a serious reason behind the questions which will come out in a year or so.
Fair comment in part I think
I worked with Phil at Vitesse many years ago, and completed his 120 OTS (LXF 725) & whilst his 'off the top of my head' knowledge was always a bit iffy, I always found his research into specific areas to be sound.
Personally I would think that most of the issues on 9600 are as a result of A***** T*** (of CMC), a man of very definite opinions on things!
Very best wishes with the project (whatever it may be), Al.
Edited by alsaautomotive on Saturday 17th November 14:52
Talking of CMC, I spent ten years trying to buy the wreck of chassis no. 4 E type up in St. Helens and eventually got to an agreement with the owner to buy it. This was Lofty England's demonstrator and quite a well known car in its day. The car had been in pieces since 1974 and had no bonnet but everything else was in cardboard boxes. The tub had new sill welded in in 1975 and then the owner had done a bunk so they kept the wreckage for 30 years. Sadly, the owner went back on the deal and CMC bought the wreck at auction a few years back for over £60,000. Harry Potter had them restore 9600 HP and a sad bit of work it was too unfortunately, especially since it was thought to be the first E type ever apart from 77RW. However, another coupé has since come to light in Switzerland which is even older! My friend has chassi no. 2 coupé and it is the only E type that ever left the fsactory with a 3.4 litre engine. It has a lot of racing history too. Never mind, the chassis is bought for the new project and it should see the light of day at the end of 2008 hopefully. It will be fully FIA papered and able to race. It is going to be a long haul but hopefully a lot of fun. All contributions gratefully received!
Crikey Lowdrag, that's some find!!!!
Which was the other car that Phil had - it was an Opalescent blue one - partly (& poorly) completed when I was last up there about 12 years ago - I'm sure he described it as one of the first prod cars?
848CRY was completed by that time, I think by Andrew T at Phil's place & that was an early one too I seem to recall (& again a little rough around the edges
) - 12th springs to mind but I may be deluding myself there.
What I found doing the 120 was that so many different people had worked on the thing over a 25 year period of him trying to get it done that I was going over & re-doing so much stuff that I was going backwards half the time! I got the impression that this was a fairly common scenario!!!!
Really look forward to seeing your friends car out & about.
Which was the other car that Phil had - it was an Opalescent blue one - partly (& poorly) completed when I was last up there about 12 years ago - I'm sure he described it as one of the first prod cars?
848CRY was completed by that time, I think by Andrew T at Phil's place & that was an early one too I seem to recall (& again a little rough around the edges
) - 12th springs to mind but I may be deluding myself there.What I found doing the 120 was that so many different people had worked on the thing over a 25 year period of him trying to get it done that I was going over & re-doing so much stuff that I was going backwards half the time! I got the impression that this was a fairly common scenario!!!!
Really look forward to seeing your friends car out & about.
Not sure about the blue one but 848 CRY is, believe it or not, quite a famous car. It is chassis #12 and was the car thrown over the cliff in the Italian Job. It was first registered to Robin Sturgess in Leicester as BBC 2 and much raced in 1961. Robin has always kept the number so that is why it latterly ended up as 848 CRY. The 2nd coupé has been around since 1983 in the same hands and might be (probably not though - he'll probably take his C type replica) seen at Hartley Wintney on Jan 1st. I shall be there in the short nose D type as usual. Great collection of cars there on Jan 1st at the Phoenix pub, reason being it is where the VSCC was founded.
I was kindof aware of CRY's history, though I am eternally suprised that Phil hasn't managed to put one of his own cars over a precipice 'a la italian Job!!!
He used to frighten the living daylights out of clients on test runs in the 140's from Vitesse, with myself & the mechanic attempting to keep up in another following, on the glorious A4067 Swansea to Brecon road (which I still use for shaking down projects)
I also recall when he collected LXF from me I made him promise to ring as soon as he got home, one hour fifteen minutes later I recieve the call to say he's arrived safely, from Swansea to Kidderminster in a 50 year old XK that'd been off the road for 25 years
He used to frighten the living daylights out of clients on test runs in the 140's from Vitesse, with myself & the mechanic attempting to keep up in another following, on the glorious A4067 Swansea to Brecon road (which I still use for shaking down projects
)I also recall when he collected LXF from me I made him promise to ring as soon as he got home, one hour fifteen minutes later I recieve the call to say he's arrived safely, from Swansea to Kidderminster in a 50 year old XK that'd been off the road for 25 years
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