Old 1950,s colour G.P films, in 8mm, help wanted

[VENOM500]

Hello all,
Just dropped in to ask for some info/advice about some old GP items I stumbled across recently.
The "find" consists of a 1955,56 British GP ,56 Monza,55 crystal Palace,55 Snetterton,56 Brandshatch,58 Monte Carlo rally and a race programme from the German GP dated 3 August 1958 signed by Schell,Trips,Collins,Behra,Edgar Arbath,Trintigent,Kurt Ahreins.
The Monza footage is taken from the pits and grandstand ,monza banking with Vanwall/Ferrari blasting round and the long parabolica straight.In all films of the GP Moss,Collins,Fangio,Castellotti and Hawthorn feature, in fact there is a nice clip of Hawthorn coming towards the camara smiling with a young lady on his arm, then kisses her , turns the to camara and with a smile gives a "fingers" sign to the film maker!
There is a clip of Moss/Fangio hugging after the British GP, in fact Moss puts the winning garland around Fangio but he prompty places it back on Moss as if to say "your race". There is about 1 hr of this stuff with much behind the pits, on the grid and in the pits with the drivers. The film is all Kodak Colour 8mm (not super)and I have no idea if it should have sound with it? Anybody know about movie film?
There is much, much more but I would be interested to know if this stuff is rare or very collectable? or common auction fodder?
Also would the film be worth the effort /expence of putting on DVD?
I would like to think others would enjoy the films? Does anyone thing there would be any interest?
Thanks again, look forward to hearing what you all think.

[HiRich]

Flippin' Heck.

In order,
The programmes are valuable, whether mint or with the results written in. The Nurburgring '58 is very significant as Peter Collins was killed in the race.
I would suggest that best bets are either ebay (individually), or as a collection through an auction house. I would suggest Bonhams, where you might well get them in the Goodwood Revival Auction. Search ebay automobilia for examples and prices.

I am assuming the footage is private rather than commercial. It is quite likely that it would be silent (though I'm no expert). Double-checking in the books:
- Monza '56: A legendary race. Collins gave up a shot at the Championship when he selflessly handed his car over to Fangio
- Aintree '55: Another legendary race. Fangio and Moss dominated in the Mercedes. Moss won, but always suspected that Fangio had gifted him the victory (he was too much of a gentleman to ever confirm or deny this). This would explain the exchange of the garland.

If it is original, private footage, it is of immense historical value, but I cannot give any indication of price. As well as auction, I would suggest two routes:
- The National Motor Museum Archive: Would offer advice and insight, but I suspect they would want it donated:
- MotorFilms : Specialise in exactly this. Their Quarterly DVDs compile pieces like this and are extremely popular. I don't know whether they would buy or lease the copyright, but you should definitely contact them for advice. This would definitely be the best way for this footage to reach the widest audience, even if it probably wouldn't generate the largest immediate income. If you go this route, you could of course ask them for a digitised copy.

I'm going to post details on another forum where better than I will offer advice. But this is stuff that will be of value an interest to someone.

Rich

[TimmyArt]

All sounds very exciting. The programes would be great - collins at the 1958 German gp

Edited by TimmyArt on Monday 4th June 14:39

[VENOM500]

Thanks again for your advice. I`m not looking to make a fortune from the films but just make enough money to cover the costs of putting them to DVD inc restoring the film to improve the colour. Silverstone 55 is about 10mins, Monza 56 Silverstone 56 is around 15mins Monte Carlo 20mins Brands/Snett/Palace 55 about 15mins plus a few other Vintage shows,9 hrs Relays Race,Hill climbs another 20 mins and the Farnborough AirShow about 7mins (All Colour, but I think without sound)

The other Programmes are, Silverstone 1960 signed by , Clark,G.Hill,P.Hill,Reventlow,Daige,Ireland,Brooks,Mclaren,Ashdown,Gregory,Surtees,Brabham,Fairman,Gendebian,Bonnier& Von Trips .

1957 MONACO, Collins,Hawthorn,Moss,VonTrips,Schell,Chiron,Trintagant
1961 MONACO, Clark,VonTrips,Siffert,May,Arundell,Ashdown,Prior.

I guess the other question is should I keep for a rainy day or sell now? Do you think these items may go up in value or we worth less as more and more people forget who these driver were?

Thanks again,Tom

[HiRich]

I think now is as good a time as any to sell the programmes. Interest in historics is as strong as ever. The question is whether to go private (ebay) or formal. I would at least broach the idea to Bonhams who will now be putting together the lot list for Goodwood Revival. Worth it for the advice alone (you're not committed to sell through them), and I think these sales would cover your digitisation costs.
Almost every signature you list is famous or significant. There should be a lot of interest, whether sold separately or together.

Cinefootage is outside my knowledge in pretty much every way. I would be tempted to sell the footage, let them digitise and restore it, and request a DVD of the final set as part of the sale. As a historic researcher myself, I'd want the film widely available, but that may not generate the best price.
I would suggest still MotorFilms, as it's right up their street (and there are a couple of others in the same field). And to maximise value, I would suggest working out the details:
- Event, date
- Who/what is featured
- A shot list and technical details (length, etc.)

[VENOM500]

Many thanks again,Tom

[kurtiejjj]

Hmm, Very interesting stuff. I'm working on a new project covering historic racing cars. I'm onto some other old footage to add a more multimedia dimension to the project. So I am also really interested in this footage. Let me know if you're selling or making it public, I'm really interested!

[williamp]

Can I make a request:

this footage is probably unique, almost certainly unseen and DEFNINENTLY worth keeping and, hopefully made available for everyone.

But the film will need preserving. It will need to be transferred onto a better medium to preserve the images.

Can I ask how much it would cost to perserve the film on a better midia? DVD? Before the footage gets lost forever (I'm surprised it has lasted this long...)

I'm sure we can raise some money between the members on pistonheads to preserve this rare footage. I would certianly help contribute to the fund.

Anyone else?

[kurtiejjj]

Yes for sure, it should transferred to a digital format. I have a contact at the BBC who might be able get me in touch with some film restorers.

The project I'm working on will be public, however if one wants to make footage like this public the copyright should be cleared.

[VENOM500]

Thanks again for your interest. I must confess that when it comes to motor racing collectors items I am fairly "switched on" but with the films I have no idea what they are worth or how rare or how much interest there would be in them.I do have quite a large collection of general release motor racing films but I must admit the images I have on film are of the like I have never seen before (But a similar example would be that of the colour images used in the Chris Rea film about Von Trips ).For example I have never come across 50,s film footage in colour of Ferraris high up on the dangerous Monza banking, there are shots of a Maza 250F at the same race in all alloy and I would guess being 1956 it could have been an early prototype? Stirling Moss seemed very interested in it! He also seems to be trying a Ferrari for size at the same race but I thought he was racing Vanwalls? And at Silverstone in 55 Mike Hawthorn points to the Mercs then at his Ferrari and pulls a face to the camara,like "My Ferrari doesn`t have a hope of beating them!)As I said all quite personal stuff with most footage from the track & pit area.
I have no idea how copyright works? There is nothing on the film to say , I bought and paid for the films but other than that (these are original home movies not a copy of a "put out film&quot But how would I know?
Just one other thing..the film shows a nasty fire at Silverstone at the 56 GP does anyone know what happened? Could that have been the BRM crash/fire that injured Tony Brooks?
I would like the films put out/restored for general viewing as it seems a shame to keep them in a closed collection, but at the same time I don`t have the finances to have them restored to DVD by the BBC at this time. Now over 50 years old there time is running out so I`m not to sure what the next step should be?

[HiRich]

My Boy's Book of Early Grand Prix Reports states ""then on lap 40 Brooks (BRM - a classic "250F"-shaped car) stopped at Club corner with a broken throttle control. After effecting a temporary repair he drove round to the pits where he was delayed several minutes. When he did eventually resume he failed to complete another lap for at Abbey Curve he spun off, overturned and was thrown out. Fortunately he escaped serious injury but the car caught fire and was burnt out."

I can't place the bare-metal car - all the 'name' cars (Lancia, Ferrari, Maserati) were basically developments in 1955 & 56, so odds are it was a development or "straight from the factory" customer car. A clue might be any Mercedes in shot (=1955).

I've put Venom onto two groups who would make it generally available. I would suggest you seek their advice on producing a digital master (and what then to do with the original reels), or indeed put them in charge of that process. Both are passionate and will be sympathetic.

Copyright may be a tricky beast. It should rest with the author (who dies 20 years ago). Did he automatically assign it to an agency? Is it implicit that copyright went with the masters? Again, take advice from the two groups, and be wary if they suggest just turning a blind eye.
If you are able to claim copyright, you have some options. As well as making it initially available with one of the two groups, you could look at making it available through an agent (or indeed sell them the copyright). It can then get more than one use, perhaps being picked up for TV. You might want to take a browse at:
http://www.itnsource.com/en/
http://www.britishpathe.com/index.cfm

[VENOM500]

Thanks again Rich,
Sorry if I,ve missed "somthing" but nothing was said about copyrights when the films were bought , but how would I go about find out? who do I need to contact?
Thanks again for you time on this matter,Tom

[HiRich]

VENOM500 said:

Sorry if I,ve missed "somthing" but nothing was said about copyrights when the films were bought , but how would I go about find out? who do I need to contact?

You haven't missed anything, I genuinely have no idea. I don't want to frighten you into spending money on a copyright lawyer, or worse not releasing the footage, but what we do know is:
- In priniciple, the copyright law is quite clear. It seems to be 70 years after death for film. I can't find it now, but there are some useful resources on the web (try Google for copyright +law +film)
- The footage is copyrighted. That covers both permission to use, and a licence fee (potentially)
- Copyright normally rests with the estate of the person who did the filming. It may be different if he did the filming for a business (but it seems that this is home movie footage). It might also have been assigned to a management agency.
- If you had a print, you would not have copyright. However, as you purchased the masters (it seems), there may be an argument that you also purchased the copyright, even if it wasn't written out. there must be case law on this. I know someone who has a horde of old negatives from which he sells prints, and no matter how good he is there is no way he has copyright 100% sorted on all of them.
- For the footage to be published, you have to at least attempt to secure publishing rights.

Eventually, this will need to go to an expert or copyright lawyer. They will try to trace the copyright holders, or confirm your copyright. However, rather than worry about this, I'd make use of the publishers I've suggested. At least one of them I know for certain has faced exactly the same problem, so they should know how to sort it. Ask them to seek advice as part of your deal. For now, just note that you do not have an absolute claim.

The reels have value, even without explicit copyright - at the very least, there's some money in there for you. There's another lump of value in the copyright. That may come to you, or it may go to the estate. Get advice on what the law says, and what it's worth, then decide how much you want to get involved, or whether you just sell on the reels "as is".

[VENOM500]

What a nightmare! I can see myself paying for a nice "BBC DVD" copy of the films and keeping them for myself and the kids at this rate, (for 70 years!)so I or they can have the copyright!
Thanks again for you help in this matter, Tom

[jonnylayze]

VENOM500 said:

Thanks again for your interest. I must confess that when it comes to motor racing collectors items I am fairly "switched on" but with the films I have no idea what they are worth or how rare or how much interest there would be in them.I do have quite a large collection of general release motor racing films but I must admit the images I have on film are of the like I have never seen before (But a similar example would be that of the colour images used in the Chris Rea film about Von Trips ).For example I have never come across 50,s film footage in colour of Ferraris high up on the dangerous Monza banking, there are shots of a Maza 250F at the same race in all alloy and I would guess being 1956 it could have been an early prototype? Stirling Moss seemed very interested in it! He also seems to be trying a Ferrari for size at the same race but I thought he was racing Vanwalls? And at Silverstone in 55 Mike Hawthorn points to the Mercs then at his Ferrari and pulls a face to the camara,like "My Ferrari doesn`t have a hope of beating them!)As I said all quite personal stuff with most footage from the track & pit area.
I have no idea how copyright works? There is nothing on the film to say , I bought and paid for the films but other than that (these are original home movies not a copy of a "put out film&quot But how would I know?
Just one other thing..the film shows a nasty fire at Silverstone at the 56 GP does anyone know what happened? Could that have been the BRM crash/fire that injured Tony Brooks?
I would like the films put out/restored for general viewing as it seems a shame to keep them in a closed collection, but at the same time I don`t have the finances to have them restored to DVD by the BBC at this time. Now over 50 years old there time is running out so I`m not to sure what the next step should be?

This sounds like the Monza footage may either be of the '56 Italian Grand Prix - or of the 'Monzanapolis' races. Is the unpainted car definitely a 250F? Could it be the Monzanapolis Lister Jaguar ( off set single seater with a headrest fairing) which, I belive, ran unpainted at the Mozanapolis meeting.

In terms of the film, I believe it is importatn it is preserved for posterity and therefore, the first person to contact should be Doug Nye at Motorfilms Quarterly, who specialise in all this sort of stuff. Doug also works for Bonhams as a consultant so may be able to help in terms of the best way of selling.

[HiRich]

jonnylayze said:

In terms of the film, I believe it is importatn it is preserved for posterity and therefore, the first person to contact should be Doug Nye at Motorfilms Quarterly, who specialise in all this sort of stuff. Doug also works for Bonhams as a consultant so may be able to help in terms of the best way of selling.

I certainly agree that the ideal would be to make it widely available. I put Venom onto one person in that field, and put a chase onto Doug (bit unimpressed that he hasn't come back, though perhaps he's on tour).

Venom, as I've said privately, the copyright issue will be a pain. But it's a hurdle, not a brick wall. People in the field will know how to resolve it. There's no hurry with the film, so get advice and let your options become clearer. Don't panic, it will resolve itself.

[VENOM500]

Thanks again everyone for your input, TOM

p.s. The film is deff "Monza 56 GP" and the car is deff a 250F.