Classic Rallying

[rustybin]

I'm thinking of having a crack at the Lombard this year and fancied trying the Historic class. So I'm after a pre-1980 four seater hard top with a capacity below 1400cc that will accomodate two mature gents with an average height of 6'3" and weight of 16 stone but still move! RWD would be preferable. Very few modifications are allowed so it needs to be competent in standard form.

Currently looking at:

Escort, Viva, Dolomite/Toledo, Anglia, Ascona, Imp

Fiat 131, 124, Lancia Fulvia Coupe, Alfa GT Junior.

Ideally I would like to use the car for other things than just the rally so would prefer something one can get attached to rather than just bounce off dry stone walls.

Any thoughts? What long overlooked jewell have I forgotten?

[racingsnake]

Chevette 1256cc RWD.
Fiat 128/3P, 1300cc FWD but they shift, dad rallied one.
Mini, obvious but FWD.
Mazda RX3? RWD very potent, rotary/wankel so not sure if <1400cc classed.
Lada 1300cc, RWD ex challenge car, - don't laugh, built like a tank for forest stages quicker than a 1300 escort too.
Skoda 130, RWD ex challenge car, won it's class on the RAC for donkeys years on the trot and can be made to shift.
Talbot Samba FWD - not sure if pre 80 eligible but good rally car.

Good luck whatever you get though.

[rustybin]

racingsnake said:

Chevette 1256cc RWD.
Fiat 128/3P, 1300cc FWD but they shift, dad rallied one.
Mini, obvious but FWD.
Mazda RX3? RWD very potent, rotary/wankel so not sure if <1400cc classed.
Lada 1300cc, RWD ex challenge car, - don't laugh, built like a tank for forest stages quicker than a 1300 escort too.
Skoda 130, RWD ex challenge car, won it's class on the RAC for donkeys years on the trot and can be made to shift.
Talbot Samba FWD - not sure if pre 80 eligible but good rally car.

Good luck whatever you get though.

Thanks for the ideas. The chevettes seem very thin on the ground and mainly to have been modded pretty significantly. Still looking though. The Mini I have ruled out due to the size and weight of the occupants. The Mazda is very thin on the ground, I have ruled it out mainly on the grounds of spares availability. The eastern euyropeans appeal due to their pedigree in the event, particulalrly the Skoda but with the minimal amount of modifications I am allowed, I really don;t think they are going to move. The Samba went into production in '81 so that is that out. Still trying to find a 128 or chevette. Thanks again.

[velocemitch]

I use a 1750 Alfa Giulia Coupe in Historic Rallying, in the right hands (Not mine sadly!) it's competative, but not very nimble on the tighter tests. I should imagine the enduro events are less about tight tests and have more open Forest type tests so it should be fine.

The 1300GTJ which is what you would need for Enduro is no slouch, but strangely I think you might struggle to find a standard one. Does the Twin Cam, 4 Carb Chokes thing cause a problem?

You've got me puzzled though because I didn't realise there was a historic class on Enduro events, some of them like the Yorkshire Retro have a Historic event attached, but that's open to cars bigger than 1400...... slopes off to do some research.....

If I had to choose a classic rally car under 1400, I would go for a Midget or a AH Sprite, but I suppose to get the (Straight line) performance up to Alfa standards you would have to modify it. (just realised you probably wouldn't fit in either!)

Why the Lombard though?, why not have a go at something like LEJog?

Edited by velocemitch on Monday 9th April 19:40

[velocemitch]

Sorry Rusty forget the Alfa's they have twin double choke Carbs, as I think would a hot 128 and a Fulvia.
It's a shame is this because the maximum of 2 chokes rule was designed to stop people running highly modified twin carb Escorts etc in 'modern' road rallies, yet it catches out the old twin carb Italian cars which ran like that from new. You can get waivers for daylight historic events and to a certain extent night Historic ones, but not for modern rallies like the Lombard

[rustybin]

velocemitch said:

Sorry Rusty forget the Alfa's they have twin double choke Carbs, as I think would a hot 128 and a Fulvia.
It's a shame is this because the maximum of 2 chokes rule was designed to stop people running highly modified twin carb Escorts etc in 'modern' road rallies, yet it catches out the old twin carb Italian cars which ran like that from new. You can get waivers for daylight historic events and to a certain extent night Historic ones, but not for modern rallies like the Lombard

One of the problems I am facing is that the regs are wildly different for enduro and historics generally. As far as I can see the enduro regs for the Lombard are just the same as for moderns except that the car must be built pre 1980. Therefore if it was standard you can have it as long as you keep within the no forced induction and below 1400 rule.

The Midget / Sprite problem apart from size is that te car also has to be designed for four people.

Why the Lombard? Well it seems like a challenge and I think the Enduro concept is great in removing much of the red tape and complexity of the technical side of historics. I am after all not doing this to prove I am Stig Blomqvist, I just want a challenge, a level playing field, and not to spend too many thousands on a car and rebuilding it. Being able to say you have done the Lombard appeals too. The only problem is the regs mismatch with other Historics. If more Enduros run a historic class to Enduro regs it would be great but at the moment the Lombard is a one off as far as I can see.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Edited by rustybin on Tuesday 10th April 09:22

[velocemitch]

I can see where you are coming from Enduro is a great idea and if well supported could prove very popular in the future, especially given the cost of stage rallying in general.
I'm not sure about red tape on the Historics though, it seems much more stringent in Enduro. I wouldn't quite say 'anything goes' with Historics but it's fairly loose by comparison. At least it is in the north, maybe less so in the south. HRCR are quite stringent to Championship entrants.

I didn't realise the Enduro's had to be designed for four?. Your right it rules out Midgets.

I'm betting that what will probably happen is that Enduro events and Historic Road Rallies might draw closer together, we are already seeing it, The Berwick Classic is open to Enduro spec cars and I understand the Yorkshire Retro Enduro will be open to Historics to normal rules (Not Enduro rules).

[rustybin]

The combining of the two seems such a simple and productive way to go. If they could just let the historics go up to 1600 or 2 litre it would really help. Most sub 1400 pre 1980 kit is 1300 and really has trouble moving itself let alone a couple of bodies.

[ian2144]

What about a Toyota Starlet RWD from the late 70's. I'm sure they did a 1300 that was quite tuneable. Or slot in a modern 16V 1300.

[Phil C]

Hopelessly obvious maybe - but what about a 1300 Escort? Although Escorts of all types seem to fetch daft money. Or an Avenger - can be made to handle nicely. And pretty cheap. Mitsubishi Lancer? (the old RWD one - but I think they only came as 1.6 or 2.0) or shock horror - how about a Lada / Fiat 124 - I know I'll get expelled from PH for writing the words.....but they are pretty robust. Going further back - possibly a Hillman Hunter - good enough for the London / Sydney years ago........

well meaning suggestions only....

Sorry just re-read some of the earlier posts and seen these have all been thought of.....

One other idea - how about a Peugeot 104S? I know they're rare - but if you can find one they go like stink - 1360cc with twin choke solex and a revvy 80odd BHP. Great fun until they fall apart - I used to have one.....until the petrol tank almost fell out due to rust......

One last offer - VW Beetle - but they're not exactly quick....

Edited by Phil C on Friday 20th April 09:20

[rustybin]

Thanks for the ideas guys. Unfortunately I reckon the historic enduro concept is flawed until there are options either to tune your little engine or keep the straight from the crate formula and have a bigger engine. Not to be defeated though I am thinking of having a crack at historic road rallying. Initial thoughts are starting out with a 73/74 MGB GT V8. I can find loads of info on people rallying B's but nobody seems to use the V8. Anyone know why?

Edited by rustybin on Monday 23 April 09:12

[aeropilot]

Phil C said:

Hopelessly obvious maybe - but what about a 1300 Escort? Although Escorts of all types seem to fetch daft money. Or an Avenger - can be made to handle nicely. And pretty cheap. Mitsubishi Lancer? (the old RWD one - but I think they only came as 1.6 or 2.0) or shock horror - how about a Lada / Fiat 124 - I know I'll get expelled from PH for writing the words.....but they are pretty robust. Going further back - possibly a Hillman Hunter - good enough for the London / Sydney years ago........

One last offer - VW Beetle - but they're not exactly quick....

Edited by Phil C on Friday 20th April 09:20

Only Escort under 1400cc would be the 1300GT/1300 Sport versions, which won't exactly set the world on fire in performance terms, but bit's availablity is good, although Escort bits are now very expensive for obvious reasons, but you would be very limited asto what you could fit to a 1300 as most of the expensive RS rally bits wouldn't be allowed anyway.
And you'd have to find one as well.
Anglia 105E in 1200 form is another option..?

Avenger and Hunter are out as not under 1400, but if you can find one, one of the big engined Hillman Imps would be a good bet, great rally cars in their day, and more comfortable than a Mini. But I'm not sure a standard Imp would be ideal, they really needed engine mods to make them worthwhile.

The Beetle is an option, yes.

Also, what about a Saab 96, great rally cars in their day, although the under 1400cc rule would mean a 1960's 2-stroke version rather than the later V4 one.

If you can find them a Renault R8 Gordini could be a good bet, being 1300cc, but they may have had twin choke carbs as standard...????

[aeropilot]

rustybin said:

I can find loads of info on people rallying B's but nobody seems to use the V8. Anyone know why?

Guessing it is because it was never homolgated for competition use by BL, so is ineligble for most historic rally classes......?

Edited by aeropilot on Monday 23 April 12:45

[rustybin]

aeropilot said:

rustybin said:

I can find loads of info on people rallying B's but nobody seems to use the V8. Anyone know why?

Guessing it is because it was never homolgated for competition use by BL, so is ineligble for most historic rally classes......?

Edited by aeropilot on Monday 23 April 12:45

I was under the impression that homologation only becomes an issue after 31/12/74 production dates. The V8's started coming off the line in 73 so should just fit in? My thinking was that the engine was reasonably capable in standard trim so I could concentrate on road rallying at first, try and get a bit of experience and get the car robust then decide whether to move on to stage and longer events and beef the car up mainly in the stopping, turning amd not breaking departments without having to go mad on engine mods.

[aeropilot]

rustybin said:

aeropilot said:

rustybin said:

I can find loads of info on people rallying B's but nobody seems to use the V8. Anyone know why?

Guessing it is because it was never homolgated for competition use by BL, so is ineligble for most historic rally classes......?

Edited by aeropilot on Monday 23 April 12:45

I was under the impression that homologation only becomes an issue after 31/12/74 production dates. The V8's started coming off the line in 73 so should just fit in? My thinking was that the engine was reasonably capable in standard trim so I could concentrate on road rallying at first, try and get a bit of experience and get the car robust then decide whether to move on to stage and longer events and beef the car up mainly in the stopping, turning amd not breaking departments without having to go mad on engine mods.

What you are referring to as Homologation being an issue after 1974 means the Cat 3 class (1975-1981), which means cars must run in an 'as homologated' specification.

For cars in Cat 1 (1960-67) and Cat 2 (1968-74) specifications permitted are based on those used and documented in National Events of the period.
BUT....as I understand it (may not be correct of course!!) even a Cat 1 and 2car must still appear on the FIA list of cars that were once homologated, as you still need a HRVIF, so as the BGT V8 doesn't appear on the 'once homologated list' you can't run one.....??????

[rustybin]

aeropilot said:

rustybin said:

aeropilot said:

rustybin said:

I can find loads of info on people rallying B's but nobody seems to use the V8. Anyone know why?

Guessing it is because it was never homolgated for competition use by BL, so is ineligble for most historic rally classes......?

Edited by aeropilot on Monday 23 April 12:45

I was under the impression that homologation only becomes an issue after 31/12/74 production dates. The V8's started coming off the line in 73 so should just fit in? My thinking was that the engine was reasonably capable in standard trim so I could concentrate on road rallying at first, try and get a bit of experience and get the car robust then decide whether to move on to stage and longer events and beef the car up mainly in the stopping, turning amd not breaking departments without having to go mad on engine mods.

What you are referring to as Homologation being an issue after 1974 means the Cat 3 class (1975-1981), which means cars must run in an 'as homologated' specification.

For cars in Cat 1 (1960-67) and Cat 2 (1968-74) specifications permitted are based on those used and documented in National Events of the period.
BUT....as I understand it (may not be correct of course!!) even a Cat 1 and 2car must still appear on the FIA list of cars that were once homologated, as you still need a HRVIF, so as the BGT V8 doesn't appear on the 'once homologated list' you can't run one.....??????

Ahhh, righto. A bit more interwebawandering and it would appear that the general rule is I can only have four cylinders, two chokes and one cam (unless it is a flat / v engine), unless I go for raod rallies that have a waiver, many of which do but not all. I wouldn't mind progressing to stage rallies at some point so it would be nice not to box myself out completely at this stage. Puts a bit of a spanner in the works of that plan or my fall back, a Gilbern Genie or Invader.

[velocemitch]

Yes Rusty thats the problem with the V8's, but in truth it only really applies to night events. We have no problem getting the Waiver for the Alfa (Twin Cam 4 Chokes)on daylight events and people do use V8's or flat 6's on daylight events. We have been allowed on Night events too, but this is starting to look more shakey now.
To be honest you shouldn't get too hung up on having lots of power, it's more important to be pointing in the right direction especially during the learning curve phase!.
There's lots of cars to choose from and Homologation, as long as any mods are 'period', isn't an issue. Check out some of entry lists on the various events to get some idea of who's running what.
IMO your right about Enduro, untill they unless the engine rules for historics it's not going to work very well for Historic cars, trouble is if they do lift the engine limit up to say 1600, it technically would open the flood gates for things like RS1600's which could alter the balance of the events and defeat the object of Enduro.

[rustybin]

velocemitch said:

To be honest you shouldn't get too hung up on having lots of power, it's more important to be pointing in the right direction especially during the learning curve phase!.

Part of my thinking was less the competitiveness of it as having an engine that I didn't have to worry about tuning and that would keep up with(or ideally match) modern traffic whilst I sorted the dynamics and learnt the car and the navigator got the hang of things.

I managed to get hold of acopy of the Bluebook yesterday. My reading of it was that the Pre-68 cars are not restricted in terms of the number of cams, cylinders, chokes etc. but would still be restricted to mods that were rallied. Am I reading that right?

[velocemitch]

I have to confess Rusty I'm a bit unclear on the pre 67 bit myself. It wasn't how I initially understood it, but having exchanged posts on the classic rally chat forum, I am now realising this might be the case. IE a pre 67 car can run without a waiver on 'Historic' events.
It makes no differance to me personally as my Alfa is a 68 car.

As far as modifications go, the rules say 'only modifications used on rally cars during the period' can be used. This basically stops people transplanting Engines, transmission, suspension etc from later cars into earlier ones.

As long as you stick to reasonable modifications you should be fine. The rules are more rigorously applied on HRCR championship rounds than they are on club events, but if you are planning to get serious and do some of the championship rounds you need to make sure you are sticking to the rules.

I agree that you need something that can keep up with modern traffic though, despite the regularity system, you do have to crack on a bit at times and you don't want to be 'on the limit' to much.