Getting a car restored professionally - newbie tips?

Getting a car restored professionally - newbie tips?

Author
Discussion

shouldbworking

Original Poster:

4,773 posts

218 months

Friday 2nd March 2007
quotequote all
Hi,
the time has come for my to send my garage-bound classic off for restoration. I know what I want (i think!), but am concerned about how it gets done, as the restorers will be some distance away and I dont want to entrust the car to a non-specialist.

I have drawn up a list of all the work I want done, but I dont want this to form a comprehensive 'this is it and no more' list. Ideally id like them to treat it as if it were their car - if they see something needing doing, they do it (and bill me )

Has anyone had any experience of this sort of thing? do i need to be uber pedantic in my instructions or should i just highlight the main items of work I want done and give them a free reign up to a budget to do other work as they see fit?

crankedup

25,764 posts

249 months

Friday 2nd March 2007
quotequote all
I am by no means an expert in this field, but I can say that you should come to an agreement with your restoration garage whereby the work is managed in stages. Discuss this at the outset and all quality businesses will be familier and happy to agree. You could ask for a photogaphic record of all works and they can e-mail pics of progress. You are then able to contain activity on your car and of course budget. Hope this helps and let us know how work progresses.

wadgebeast

3,856 posts

217 months

Friday 2nd March 2007
quotequote all
Definitely get the phots done. Helps with re-sale, agreed evaluation stuff.

Agree a budget in advance and get him to phone you if there's something major comes up that's likely to go over that. With mine, it was discovering the whole front scuttle was rotten and would need replacing, cost another 500 odd quid.

tvrgaas

1,469 posts

276 months

Friday 2nd March 2007
quotequote all
As Crankedup says^^.

This can be an expensive business, make sure you both know the standard you want it restored to. Concourse condition, for some, means winning the best in show cup at the annual Rally. For others the restoration may mean, a certain lap time round Silverstone. Others think it is a respray

I've not done a restoration, but I'd suggest a payment schedule and agree progress reports, and visits. Agree how much work is out sourced, and if you are paying these suppliers direct. However alot will depend on the car and the condition. The condition can only really be assessed after strip down, so it's down to trust of your restorer.

I know someone who has restored a few Invicta's so know how costs can increase, you're paying for someones time, at what 10-30£/hr, although at the end these cars are worth a few bob.

What's the car?

shouldbworking

Original Poster:

4,773 posts

218 months

Friday 2nd March 2007
quotequote all
The car is a Lancia Beta. Restoration costs should amount to several times the market value of the car, i suppose thats what being a pistonheads about

With regard to stage breakdown, I guess this is treat it just like a business project? take the largest risks first whilst there is still plenty of money in the budget to deal with it?

Heres my scribbled stages so far

Beta restoration work

Stage 1

Transport to workshop
Repaint including rust repairs + window trim repaint

Stage 2
Resolve ignition electrical fault
Clutch replacement + Gear linkage replacement
Cambelt + supercharger belt + tensioner pulley replacement
Replace exhaust from manifold back
Resolve high idle
Repair brakes (new hoses + refit handbrake cable)?

Stage 3
Front lights replacement + relay system
Repair heater controls
Test + maintenance on cooling system (check it wont overheat in towns)
General service - fluids + filters

Stage 4
Replace / refit drivers side door card
Fabricate + fit exhaust heat shield to protect steering rack gaiters
Refurbish wheels + fit new tyres
Fit new suspension bushes
Rust prevention (new underseal, waxoyl)
MOT

lynxd67

13,025 posts

219 months

Friday 2nd March 2007
quotequote all
Having been involved in the clasic world for nigh on 30 years, purely as an amateur but later on the passion becoming so great as a concours judge, my advice would be to first of all talk to the Lancia Club and ask their advice as to who they recommend. I've seen so many horror stories over the years that took a second fortune to put right after the first "restoration" was completely messed up. Cars that weren't straight, a boot lid that was more lead than steel and broke the stay, one E type where they cut the transmission tunnel to get the gearbox out and then replaced it with a Castrol 50 gallon drum beaten roughly into shape - I could go on. In the Jaguar clubs we know of people who do good and those who do bad work - one who has moved from the Midlands to the west country comes to mind who we would advise to avoid at all costs. I suggest you go here:-

www.lanciamotorclub.co.uk/

I am sure that you'll find people as passionate as yourself about the car who will guide you. It is people like you who are the heroes - the Beta was a car that resulted in Lancia quitting GB when engines started dropping out of cars when the engine supports rusted out and the cars are so rare now. May I wish you all the best. I just wonder if body panels and parts are still available, especially parts particular to RHD cars.

plasticpig

12,932 posts

231 months

Friday 2nd March 2007
quotequote all
I have had one car restored professionally. One suggestion I have is to visit regularly and take photographs to document the progress being made or get the restorers to do it. I didnt do this as much as I should have done so the documentation is patchy. I would say at the minimum you need to visit or contact the restorer every fortnight to get a progress report.

Its difficult for a restorer to know how much work is involved until the car is stripped so any indications of the amount of labour required are estimates and costs and time can increase massivley. The amount of time to prepare the bodywork for respray for my car was estimated at 146 hours it actually took well over 200.

If I was to have a car restored again I would get estimates from the restorer for all the work and budget 1/3 of the total for extra expenditure. I would also ask the restorer to recommend any work that is not necessarily required but would be cheap to carry out with the car in bits but expensive if it had to be done at later date.

shouldbworking

Original Poster:

4,773 posts

218 months

Friday 2nd March 2007
quotequote all
nice to see the encouragement. I have just subscribed to the club and had Betacar (www.betacar.co.uk) in mind for the resto, hopefully 2 months notice will be enough.

Body parts im not too worried about. My car was blessed by being one of the later models and has lasted quite well - token pic from before it went into storage (4 years ago - gulp!) here. Since then the exhaust silencer has fallen to bits but other than that its still lasting albeit dusty.



I guess ill be recognised as a former member of PH by now with a new identity - true enough except i now have learned to stay away from threads i know will wind me up.

flat16

347 posts

240 months

Saturday 3rd March 2007
quotequote all
The story about engines dropping out of cars is an urban myth, propagated by the British tabloid media. If you think otherwise, then show me documented evidence – I’ve never seen it, nor do I know anyone who has. BTW, Lancia had discontinued the Beta in 1984, whereas they didn’t stop UK imports until 1994.

As someone who had their Montecarlo bare-metal restored in 1992, I have got a few tips:

90% (an optimistic figure, btw… ) of so-called “Lancia Specialists” are out-and-out crooks (mentioning no names… ) – be very, very careful – proper crooks... I could write pages and pages of horror stories regarding the aforementioned “specialists”. Be aware that all is not always what it seems in Italian car circles, and just because someone’s been in business for years, it most certainly doesn’t make them good… To compound this, I can think of certain specialists who prepare beautiful cars for themselves, yet rip customers off mercilessly…

The good news is that the Beta (as well as the Montecarlo) is NOT a specialist car. You’ll need a specialist to get parts, and there will be occasions when you’ll need certain specialist information, say, to do with wiring looms for example. But, on the whole, the cars are very simple and surprisingly ergonomic from a working point of view (my ex-mechanic (a true Italian specialist – a real shame he retired) preferred working on my Montecarlo to the 1966 Austin I used in the daytime…I kid not.

If you have a decent garage local to you that you trust for other brands, I would use them for the Lancia. If they get stuck, you can contact people such as Omicron (one of the few good guys) for information. I would much rather use a trusted garage who’s more known for say, Jags or Triumphs, than a so-called “specialist” who’s only recommended by those with an agenda… My Montecarlo was restored by a bodyshop in Essex who specialise in fabricating new parts and repairing track cars (all makes). The brothers who founded the firm came from a background in toolmaking, which bodes well IMO.

Another bad piece of news is that, until they strip the thing down, you’re never going to know accurately how much work is needed, and any bodywork shop worth their salt should tell you this – it really is the luck of the draw. If the shop is sufficiently in need of the work, they will “quote” you, but bear in mind – if there is more work than they bargained for – corners could / will be cut…

Business-is-business, so I’ll give some advice I know from my trade: I happen to know an engineer who specialises in restoring classic recording equipment. He works for the biggest bands and studios in the world (you name it: Coldplay, Brian Ferry etc etc). He will NOT quote under ANY circumstances. If a customer asks for a quote, he directs them elsewhere…the moral being that, there are always unforeseen snags and the scope for over or under-quoting is massive. I fail to see how a car will be any different…

If someone under-quotes you, there is a chance their morale will dip in the latter stages of the job, a consequence of this being that they may try and rush the job, or skip an extra treatment (it’s human nature I’m afraid).

The advice you have heeded, i.e. keep it in stages is very important - one bridge at a time.

Bear in mind that the dreadful reputation for rust in Lancias came from the pre-1980 cars. A 1984 car will have galvanisation that’s in a different league to the earlier cars. A S2 Montecarlo is a different ballgame to an S1, and I can’t see VXs being any different.

FWIW, I recognise you - PH needs more Lancisti! A C-plate Volumex is a rarity! You’ll have to pop over and let me hear the noise of the blower

Once the restoration is done, you'll be looking into EFI and forged pistons no doubt!


Edited by flat16 on Saturday 3rd March 20:46

215cu

2,956 posts

216 months

Tuesday 6th March 2007
quotequote all
flat16 said:
The story about engines dropping out of cars is an urban myth, propagated by the British tabloid media. If you think otherwise, then show me documented evidence – I’ve never seen it, nor do I know anyone who has. BTW, Lancia had discontinued the Beta in 1984, whereas they didn’t stop UK imports until 1994.

As someone who had their Montecarlo bare-metal restored in 1992, I have got a few tips:

90% (an optimistic figure, btw… ) of so-called “Lancia Specialists” are out-and-out crooks (mentioning no names… ) – be very, very careful – proper crooks... I could write pages and pages of horror stories regarding the aforementioned “specialists”. Be aware that all is not always what it seems in Italian car circles, and just because someone’s been in business for years, it most certainly doesn’t make them good… To compound this, I can think of certain specialists who prepare beautiful cars for themselves, yet rip customers off mercilessly…

The good news is that the Beta (as well as the Montecarlo) is NOT a specialist car. You’ll need a specialist to get parts, and there will be occasions when you’ll need certain specialist information, say, to do with wiring looms for example. But, on the whole, the cars are very simple and surprisingly ergonomic from a working point of view (my ex-mechanic (a true Italian specialist – a real shame he retired) preferred working on my Montecarlo to the 1966 Austin I used in the daytime…I kid not.

If you have a decent garage local to you that you trust for other brands, I would use them for the Lancia. If they get stuck, you can contact people such as Omicron (one of the few good guys) for information. I would much rather use a trusted garage who’s more known for say, Jags or Triumphs, than a so-called “specialist” who’s only recommended by those with an agenda… My Montecarlo was restored by a bodyshop in Essex who specialise in fabricating new parts and repairing track cars (all makes). The brothers who founded the firm came from a background in toolmaking, which bodes well IMO.

Another bad piece of news is that, until they strip the thing down, you’re never going to know accurately how much work is needed, and any bodywork shop worth their salt should tell you this – it really is the luck of the draw. If the shop is sufficiently in need of the work, they will “quote” you, but bear in mind – if there is more work than they bargained for – corners could / will be cut…

Business-is-business, so I’ll give some advice I know from my trade: I happen to know an engineer who specialises in restoring classic recording equipment. He works for the biggest bands and studios in the world (you name it: Coldplay, Brian Ferry etc etc). He will NOT quote under ANY circumstances. If a customer asks for a quote, he directs them elsewhere…the moral being that, there are always unforeseen snags and the scope for over or under-quoting is massive. I fail to see how a car will be any different…

If someone under-quotes you, there is a chance their morale will dip in the latter stages of the job, a consequence of this being that they may try and rush the job, or skip an extra treatment (it’s human nature I’m afraid).

The advice you have heeded, i.e. keep it in stages is very important - one bridge at a time.

Bear in mind that the dreadful reputation for rust in Lancias came from the pre-1980 cars. A 1984 car will have galvanisation that’s in a different league to the earlier cars. A S2 Montecarlo is a different ballgame to an S1, and I can’t see VXs being any different.

FWIW, I recognise you - PH needs more Lancisti! A C-plate Volumex is a rarity! You’ll have to pop over and let me hear the noise of the blower

Once the restoration is done, you'll be looking into EFI and forged pistons no doubt!


Edited by flat16 on Saturday 3rd March 20:46


That's superb advice, I can only add that when it comes to mechanicals, get all the work done for a particular thing (gearbox, engine) at the same time. This will save no end of labour costs, there's nothing worse than asking them to do one thing, then get three more things done only to have to go back to a part of the car they've already been to.

In terms of getting the right people to do it, the best way really is word of mouth recommendations.

I noticed that you have respray and rust proofing separated by a lot of mechanical work, my recommendation would be to get as much off the car as possible, get the metal stripped and shotblasted, it will show up the rust, get bits cut out /treated and welded and then go for rustproofing, underseal and paint. A good specialist will know where these rot and can treat those areas well with this approach. This will be more expensive but it will preserve the car for much, much longer. It will also add value to the car in the long term.

The one thing that kills old car is tinworm, unless it's really exotic, mechanicals are cheap by comparison. I feel any resto should focus on getting the bodywork right first.


Edited by 215cu on Tuesday 6th March 09:17

flat16

347 posts

240 months

Tuesday 6th March 2007
quotequote all
The last poster makes a good point about getting the trim etc off and seeing what's going on underneath.

A piece (maybe an obvious piece, but we'll cover all bases here) of good advice is to get as much of the trim, i.e. the monkey work, off yourself (a tip I see regularly in this forum I believe). Massive savings can be had here. What's the point in paying a trained bodywork specialist to remove badges and panel trim?

Having said that, removing trim takes patience and if you're unsure, call someone who's worked on the car before for tips, particularly as Lancia trim can be rare and expensive.

shouldbworking

Original Poster:

4,773 posts

218 months

Monday 19th March 2007
quotequote all
Update -

After I checked out the car to make sure it was err. still there, at the weekend and took all the photos in the world I've packed it up with all the spare parts they will need in the boot. Spoke to Betacar this morning and they sound quite reassuring, so ...... eek looks like its going to happen

Regarding trim removal etc I have stripped one of these down to a bare bodyshell in the past but in this case the car is too far away from me and also I want it to go off to the restorers complete as such rather than a half job where they dont know what has and hasnt been done.

Before pics then - (largeish)

The door on this side will be being replaced or reskinned. Looks like my brother is attempting to repeat his accidental destruction of the indicator on the other side
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/55

Who knows why this side is so much better than the other..
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/21

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/39

Correct volumex bonnet is inside the garage
http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/99

This is about as bad as its gotten on the top side
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/96

Intact suspension towers shocker!
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/10

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/89

Sills and floorpan are still recognisable - another Beta myth dispelled
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/83

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/54

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/49

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9468

incorrigible

13,668 posts

267 months

Monday 19th March 2007
quotequote all
Where abouts in the UK are you ??

We'd be happy to take the work on (although we are booked up for restorations until the end of the summer).

Flat16s advice is spot on thumbup

Cheers

Ben

www.classiccarworkshop.co.uk

shouldbworking

Original Poster:

4,773 posts

218 months

Tuesday 20th March 2007
quotequote all
incorrigible said:
Where abouts in the UK are you ??

We'd be happy to take the work on (although we are booked up for restorations until the end of the summer).

Flat16s advice is spot on thumbup

Cheers

Ben

www.classiccarworkshop.co.uk


Thanks for the offer, but the car is looking to be going to Betacar (www.betacar.co.uk/) for the work as they have designed and manufactured a good few goodies and being a model specialist know the cars inside and out and have all the spares in the world on hand.

The car will be transported from Cheam, Surrey to their workshop in Bradford and then when its done ill make a bit of a road trip coming back down to my new abode. Work should hopefully commence in early May.

incorrigible

13,668 posts

267 months

Tuesday 20th March 2007
quotequote all
When you get it on the road, come down and see us yes