Restorer issue-help
Discussion
I apologise for the length of this post but not sure what, if anything I or my stepdaughter can do.
Her father, a lifetime Jaguar man and a retired farmer who was blunt to the point of rudeness. Obtained an E Type from America that according to my information has been officially imported into the UK but not registered with DVLA yet.
It has been undergoing a complete refurb since about 2019 I think. In 2020 the owner asked me (as a retired Jaguar/Rolls Royce service manager) to be a “go between” himself and the restorer as they rubbed each other up the wrong way. This I did and I liaised between them until early 2022 when the owner passed away.
His daughter inherited the car and I continued to provide my services to her. Just before the owner passed we had seen the body shell painted ready for assembly as well photographs of the refurbished ancillaries, engine, gearbox, back axle, front axle parts and seats & trim and the main dash panel. This was late 2021.
The refurbisher agreed to keep us updated but I have to constantly chase him and to date have over 30 emails where he gives me excuses/reasons for lack of updates. These range from covid to family serious illness to best friends being taken ill etc etc. He promised completion summer 2022 and 2 years later it is an assembled shell (doors, bonnet & boot fitted) only.
I was promised an update last week and again am still waiting, if I become firm with him he becomes defensive and almost rude. He has been paid thousands for his work so far and on my last “surprise” visit, no further reassembly of it had been done.
I/we don’t know what to do besides look at the legal route but we fear this might backfire on us judging by his previous reactions.
We have considered pulling the vehicle out from him and do have another restorer that will take it on but with only a few thousand pounds left in the restoration kitty (due to be paid on completion) there will not be enough to finance another company taking it on, besides all the problems such a move is bound to create.
Any thoughts on what, if anything, we can do?
Her father, a lifetime Jaguar man and a retired farmer who was blunt to the point of rudeness. Obtained an E Type from America that according to my information has been officially imported into the UK but not registered with DVLA yet.
It has been undergoing a complete refurb since about 2019 I think. In 2020 the owner asked me (as a retired Jaguar/Rolls Royce service manager) to be a “go between” himself and the restorer as they rubbed each other up the wrong way. This I did and I liaised between them until early 2022 when the owner passed away.
His daughter inherited the car and I continued to provide my services to her. Just before the owner passed we had seen the body shell painted ready for assembly as well photographs of the refurbished ancillaries, engine, gearbox, back axle, front axle parts and seats & trim and the main dash panel. This was late 2021.
The refurbisher agreed to keep us updated but I have to constantly chase him and to date have over 30 emails where he gives me excuses/reasons for lack of updates. These range from covid to family serious illness to best friends being taken ill etc etc. He promised completion summer 2022 and 2 years later it is an assembled shell (doors, bonnet & boot fitted) only.
I was promised an update last week and again am still waiting, if I become firm with him he becomes defensive and almost rude. He has been paid thousands for his work so far and on my last “surprise” visit, no further reassembly of it had been done.
I/we don’t know what to do besides look at the legal route but we fear this might backfire on us judging by his previous reactions.
We have considered pulling the vehicle out from him and do have another restorer that will take it on but with only a few thousand pounds left in the restoration kitty (due to be paid on completion) there will not be enough to finance another company taking it on, besides all the problems such a move is bound to create.
Any thoughts on what, if anything, we can do?
Sorry to hear this, all too familiar, story.
What would the 'legal route' actually be ?
First question do you have a written contract with him ?
Anyway no one can force him to complete the job, even if you could- what quality of work would you receive ?
I know a V5C log book only identifies the registered keeper rather than 'owner', but it makes me even more concerned that the car is not UK registered. Do you have a way of proving to a third party that the car in his possession is your clients property ?
What would happen to it if he declared bankruptcy ?
The car is painted you say. Are you confident in the quality of the body repairs pre painting ? Is there a photographic record of the work ?
I don't know if he is one man in a shed with too many projects or a company, either way you give the impression you can no longer trust him.
Based on your description & version of events I personally would be making arrangements to recover the body shell and all parts. I know that's a hell of a job, but from what you say there is no light at the end of the tunnel with the current situation. Your client has nothing at the moment and there seems no reason why that is going to change.
The car would then have to go to another restorer, or into storage or be sold as is. (or go on the TV show Car SOS)
Sorry.
What would the 'legal route' actually be ?
First question do you have a written contract with him ?
Anyway no one can force him to complete the job, even if you could- what quality of work would you receive ?
I know a V5C log book only identifies the registered keeper rather than 'owner', but it makes me even more concerned that the car is not UK registered. Do you have a way of proving to a third party that the car in his possession is your clients property ?
What would happen to it if he declared bankruptcy ?
The car is painted you say. Are you confident in the quality of the body repairs pre painting ? Is there a photographic record of the work ?
I don't know if he is one man in a shed with too many projects or a company, either way you give the impression you can no longer trust him.
Based on your description & version of events I personally would be making arrangements to recover the body shell and all parts. I know that's a hell of a job, but from what you say there is no light at the end of the tunnel with the current situation. Your client has nothing at the moment and there seems no reason why that is going to change.
The car would then have to go to another restorer, or into storage or be sold as is. (or go on the TV show Car SOS)
Sorry.
Edited by gt40steve on Friday 1st November 17:44
I think you're going to have to remove the car anyway, clearly they aren't going to finish it and any legal action isn't going to be able to force them to finish it.
In this case, your next problem is ensuring you get back all the parts and/or the restorer replaces them.
Do you have any bills for parts purchased by the restorer ? some of the original parts are likely to be of no use and need replacing, if the owner(s) have paid for new parts, they should receive them.
Ensure the original engine comes back too (assuming you have paperwork with the engine number on).
Has the restorer been paid for work he is yet to do?
As for what you do next, I think you need to find someone who will work with you to get the major stuff done - suspension, brakes, drivetrain. once its a rolling car you can get work done much more easily. You may find a low cost route through owners clubs etc rather than paying a big restoration shop top money.
In this case, your next problem is ensuring you get back all the parts and/or the restorer replaces them.
Do you have any bills for parts purchased by the restorer ? some of the original parts are likely to be of no use and need replacing, if the owner(s) have paid for new parts, they should receive them.
Ensure the original engine comes back too (assuming you have paperwork with the engine number on).
Has the restorer been paid for work he is yet to do?
As for what you do next, I think you need to find someone who will work with you to get the major stuff done - suspension, brakes, drivetrain. once its a rolling car you can get work done much more easily. You may find a low cost route through owners clubs etc rather than paying a big restoration shop top money.
Edited by Crafty_ on Friday 1st November 18:02
@gt40steve
Thanks for your input, in answer to your questions.
Legal action, possibly a Solicitors letter.
No written contract that we can find in the documentation we have however, several paid invoices from the restorer mentioning the car by vin number. Enough I would have thought to support a verbal contract. I also have numerous emails from the restorer that refer to car as J***s car.
I think I have enough paperwork, including the American "certificate of title" and a HM Revenue & Customs letter confirming import checks are clear and VAT paid.
We also have pictures of the rebuilt engine clearly showing the engine number.
Bankruptcy is a worry, he is a LTD company but I think we have enough documents to prove our ownership.
I know the company who sprayed it, highly recommended. I also have pictures of the bodyshell from initial prep right through to final finish that is superb.
He has his own company unit and is doing a lot of other things like occasional car sales and is heavily involved in racing. He seems to be a man that does things at his own convenience and as and when he feels like it.
On the plus side I cannot fault any work he has done so far but when I last saw the car it was ready for reassembly that, in my experience should easily be completed in 2 weeks (80 Hours) at the most.
I cant fault his work but need to find the right rocket to put up him to make him get a move on. My step daughter is very much like her father and she is ready to give him both barrels, restraining her is almost a full time job :-)
After 50 years in the trade I even thought about going down with my tools and finishing it off. :-)
Thanks for your input, in answer to your questions.
Legal action, possibly a Solicitors letter.
No written contract that we can find in the documentation we have however, several paid invoices from the restorer mentioning the car by vin number. Enough I would have thought to support a verbal contract. I also have numerous emails from the restorer that refer to car as J***s car.
I think I have enough paperwork, including the American "certificate of title" and a HM Revenue & Customs letter confirming import checks are clear and VAT paid.
We also have pictures of the rebuilt engine clearly showing the engine number.
Bankruptcy is a worry, he is a LTD company but I think we have enough documents to prove our ownership.
I know the company who sprayed it, highly recommended. I also have pictures of the bodyshell from initial prep right through to final finish that is superb.
He has his own company unit and is doing a lot of other things like occasional car sales and is heavily involved in racing. He seems to be a man that does things at his own convenience and as and when he feels like it.
On the plus side I cannot fault any work he has done so far but when I last saw the car it was ready for reassembly that, in my experience should easily be completed in 2 weeks (80 Hours) at the most.
I cant fault his work but need to find the right rocket to put up him to make him get a move on. My step daughter is very much like her father and she is ready to give him both barrels, restraining her is almost a full time job :-)
After 50 years in the trade I even thought about going down with my tools and finishing it off. :-)
If it is that simple he has no excuse not to finish it & it's disappointing that he doesn't have enough pride in himself to do just that.
I feel for you, being peace maker - piggy in the middle !
What would the solicitors letter say, 'please honour your commitment to do the job as agreed' or threat of legal action, in what form ? I wonder how that would be received ?
It is so unfair & difficult to resolve. I have four colleagues that come straight to mind who have had bad experiences. Two had their cars relocated without their knowledge, parts stolen, work not completed, others shoddy workmanship, another worlds slowest repaint with the man running & hiding in the bushes when he tried to visit to see his car. One clearly couldn't say no & had multiple partially finished customer projects, some 'stored' outside uncovered.
I hope you have a decent outcome.
I feel for you, being peace maker - piggy in the middle !
What would the solicitors letter say, 'please honour your commitment to do the job as agreed' or threat of legal action, in what form ? I wonder how that would be received ?
It is so unfair & difficult to resolve. I have four colleagues that come straight to mind who have had bad experiences. Two had their cars relocated without their knowledge, parts stolen, work not completed, others shoddy workmanship, another worlds slowest repaint with the man running & hiding in the bushes when he tried to visit to see his car. One clearly couldn't say no & had multiple partially finished customer projects, some 'stored' outside uncovered.
I hope you have a decent outcome.
Charley100 said:
We have considered pulling the vehicle out from him and do have another restorer that will take it on but with only a few thousand pounds left in the restoration kitty (due to be paid on completion) there will not be enough to finance another company taking it on
That sounds like money has been paid up front for a lot of the work, if there's only a few thousand left in the kitty, as that won't be enough to finish the car from the state that it currently is in?If that's the case then, you are pretty lumbered to him finishing it at his pace, however glacial that may be.
While I would expect maybe parts to be paid for upfront, I wouldn't have expected any labour costs to have been paid up front?
Im sorry to hear this but sadly its a very common story.
From my experience the car will not be finished with the current restorer, he may bolt the odd bit on but he has either lost heart in the project or more likely by the sound of it been paid the majority of money up front which in his eyes is long gone and he would be working for nothing. It can be very hard when trades want substantial money up front as they often lose interest when the money has been spent. Also jobs at a quoted price rather than hourly rate can catch restorers out.
Whether or not you have the money to complete the car you may as well remove it and hope you get it all back before things get worse.
The one thing I cant understand from your first post it seems the body is painted and all panels refitted and all other parts are refurbished and ready to fit and you think this is 80 hours work, I have never restored a Jaguar but would expect this to be more like 300 hrs absolute minimum.
From my experience the car will not be finished with the current restorer, he may bolt the odd bit on but he has either lost heart in the project or more likely by the sound of it been paid the majority of money up front which in his eyes is long gone and he would be working for nothing. It can be very hard when trades want substantial money up front as they often lose interest when the money has been spent. Also jobs at a quoted price rather than hourly rate can catch restorers out.
Whether or not you have the money to complete the car you may as well remove it and hope you get it all back before things get worse.
The one thing I cant understand from your first post it seems the body is painted and all panels refitted and all other parts are refurbished and ready to fit and you think this is 80 hours work, I have never restored a Jaguar but would expect this to be more like 300 hrs absolute minimum.
I have heard of similar in the past. The problem that many face (and I really hope its not the case here), is that the interior is at some undisclosed trim specialist, all the chromework is at another place, engine somewhere else, gearbox somewhere else, axle, wheels etc.
You end up with a car in a thousand bits scattered all over the country (world if you're really unlucky) at different specialists and someone who won't co operate with all the info, and (probably) large unpaid invoices to boot. (Its even harder if they're a one man band that's deceased because in many cases there won't be a paper trail!)
It means you can turn up to collect your car and all you really can really relinquish is aa shell, trim and glass.
If the car is all there, roll up and retrieve it. It sounds like the stress and worry isn't worth it, even if it has to be mothballed for a year or two until the funds can be raised to finish it. At least then it's under your control!
You end up with a car in a thousand bits scattered all over the country (world if you're really unlucky) at different specialists and someone who won't co operate with all the info, and (probably) large unpaid invoices to boot. (Its even harder if they're a one man band that's deceased because in many cases there won't be a paper trail!)
It means you can turn up to collect your car and all you really can really relinquish is aa shell, trim and glass.
If the car is all there, roll up and retrieve it. It sounds like the stress and worry isn't worth it, even if it has to be mothballed for a year or two until the funds can be raised to finish it. At least then it's under your control!
Thanks everyone for your input, as I feared from the posts, we are between a rock & a hard place with this. I feel for my step daughter as her father will never see the end product and this makes her so emotionally angry so I have to keep her calm as well as not upset the restorer and have more hassle. Oh why can I not say NO to people!
gt40steve your right, maybe I didn't think about the Solicitors letter enough, it could push him to say you have 24 hours to get it off his site.
aeropilot I was never was involved in the money side of this but, I think your right he should never have been paid the amount he has without more results, now no incentive to finish it, only £8,000 left to pay.
Jaz200 I think you are right he is now more interested in reviving his racing career, (and his sons) than finishing the car, it has become chore. I maybe a bit light on my 80 hours but in the 70's I did a "shell change" and was allowed 120 hours from start to finish. This car has 98% of its components assembled and ready to bolt on, apparently he his reassembling the pedal box now. I wonder who will develop cancer, have a fall, a suspected stroke, a family suicide attempt or a prolonged "bun fight" with the FIA to interfere with that job. These are just a sample of over 35 excuses why progress has been interrupted since 2022. I am not unsympathetic but after so many quite serious claims doubt starts to creep in, even I haven't had that much bad luck!
Ambleton on previous visits I have seen all major components ready to go and stored at his works, engine, drive train, front suspension and interior trim so don't think there is the issue of parts being at different locations, I hope.
if I dont hear back from him by mid week I think another surprise visit is in order and this time we will, politely and firmly tell him what we expect going forward and see what happens.
Thanks again for all your thoughts an opinions.
gt40steve your right, maybe I didn't think about the Solicitors letter enough, it could push him to say you have 24 hours to get it off his site.
aeropilot I was never was involved in the money side of this but, I think your right he should never have been paid the amount he has without more results, now no incentive to finish it, only £8,000 left to pay.
Jaz200 I think you are right he is now more interested in reviving his racing career, (and his sons) than finishing the car, it has become chore. I maybe a bit light on my 80 hours but in the 70's I did a "shell change" and was allowed 120 hours from start to finish. This car has 98% of its components assembled and ready to bolt on, apparently he his reassembling the pedal box now. I wonder who will develop cancer, have a fall, a suspected stroke, a family suicide attempt or a prolonged "bun fight" with the FIA to interfere with that job. These are just a sample of over 35 excuses why progress has been interrupted since 2022. I am not unsympathetic but after so many quite serious claims doubt starts to creep in, even I haven't had that much bad luck!
Ambleton on previous visits I have seen all major components ready to go and stored at his works, engine, drive train, front suspension and interior trim so don't think there is the issue of parts being at different locations, I hope.
if I dont hear back from him by mid week I think another surprise visit is in order and this time we will, politely and firmly tell him what we expect going forward and see what happens.
Thanks again for all your thoughts an opinions.
I have registered 3 E types from the US in as many years, and 2 UK cars with brown log books. The US cars were on NOVA like yours.
I provided heritage certificates for each one, as well as the US titles.
The Heritage certificate is more of a £60 formality, as you supply the chassis/eng,/gearbox/body no. to Jaguar and they print the certificate. You may as well get one.
Of the 2 "brown log book" cars, one was on the computer and they issued a V5 in about 2 weeks to me after the V62 application, as the number plate was on the computer. This was even though it had been parked up since 1968.
They sent all my lovely original documents back with a nice note.
The other one had been parked up in Warwickshire since 1972 and had dropped off the computer, so they asked for pictures then issued the V5.
They only inspected one American car. That was done through a third party private company for free and it passed the inspection as it was what it should have been.
2 months ago I applied for a RHD 66' Mini Cooper that was parked in 1979 and the registration had dropped off the computer. That resulted in me having to send in pictures of the car to them. The V5 was issued to me in about 2 weeks after that.
So my experiences of the DVLA have been positive over the last few years.
If the company you are dealing with are who I suspect they are, they have plenty of spare muscle to finish your car at the stage it has reached.
So a solicitors letter might do the trick.
I provided heritage certificates for each one, as well as the US titles.
The Heritage certificate is more of a £60 formality, as you supply the chassis/eng,/gearbox/body no. to Jaguar and they print the certificate. You may as well get one.
Of the 2 "brown log book" cars, one was on the computer and they issued a V5 in about 2 weeks to me after the V62 application, as the number plate was on the computer. This was even though it had been parked up since 1968.
They sent all my lovely original documents back with a nice note.
The other one had been parked up in Warwickshire since 1972 and had dropped off the computer, so they asked for pictures then issued the V5.
They only inspected one American car. That was done through a third party private company for free and it passed the inspection as it was what it should have been.
2 months ago I applied for a RHD 66' Mini Cooper that was parked in 1979 and the registration had dropped off the computer. That resulted in me having to send in pictures of the car to them. The V5 was issued to me in about 2 weeks after that.
So my experiences of the DVLA have been positive over the last few years.
If the company you are dealing with are who I suspect they are, they have plenty of spare muscle to finish your car at the stage it has reached.
So a solicitors letter might do the trick.
Its amazing how many wild excuses someone can give for not completing a job and I showed a restorer sympathy over a genuine family illness and let them leave my job for the best part of 12 months and my sympathy was repaid by being messed around for another 2 years, luckily I got my car out and have been repaid for work not completed after a lot of arguing although I did have indisputable proof of what I was owed and only got it when I gave notice of court proceedings.
As much as I would want to be sympathetic again I will always put myself first next time and will not make more than £1000 up front payment. If they are not happy with this then I will look elsewhere, I am happy to keep making regular payments with proof of work completed but I find once too much is paid in advance work slows down.
On the bright side you seem to have the skills to complete this job yourself.
As much as I would want to be sympathetic again I will always put myself first next time and will not make more than £1000 up front payment. If they are not happy with this then I will look elsewhere, I am happy to keep making regular payments with proof of work completed but I find once too much is paid in advance work slows down.
On the bright side you seem to have the skills to complete this job yourself.
Latest.. have arranged to meet and view the car and depending on progress, if any, we will then decide what action next.
We have a reliable company that we have used before on standby to remove it if necessary but this will only add to the cost and add another six months or more onto the build before they can start it.
Moving it will obviously deal with our concerns but in the long run could make things even worse with missing parts etc and thus more costs that could make the car a negative investment. Anything like this needs a lot of thought before doing anything.
I am drafting a formal complaint letter to him (or rather the Ltd company) that I will finalise after the visit.
It will clearly lay out the situation and what we require going forward such as monthly visits to view progress etc. I like to think that the man is not a "rouge" but just has so much going on he cant deal with it all in a timely manner. In his defence every thing I have seen completed has been to a high standard so don't think he would become a "bodger" and rush it, I hope.
Money wise he has been paid over 70k for the refurb plus a considerable amount for the purchase of the car from him, now over 100k We have receipted invoices for every penny but he is a Ltd company so personally no direct liability. We have enough documentation to prove ownership etc should he close the business so he wont be able to list the car as an asset, we are keeping a close eye on his companies on Gov.uk as well.
He will have had the car for 5 years in January and it was early 2022 that the body came out of paint and most ancillaries etc were refurbed and ready to fit. Since then he only seems to have reassembled the body so hope that the upcoming visit will show more progress, fingers crossed.
Will update after the meeting or if anything "odd" turns up on the Gov.uk site.
@Jas2000 exactly how we approached his excuses that now, after going through past emails, is in excess of 40. Going to take the hard approach now, his issues are not my problem such things, however personal, are for him and the business to deal with and will not be visited on us in the future.
My moto, I dont have problems, I only have solutions.-rant over
We have a reliable company that we have used before on standby to remove it if necessary but this will only add to the cost and add another six months or more onto the build before they can start it.
Moving it will obviously deal with our concerns but in the long run could make things even worse with missing parts etc and thus more costs that could make the car a negative investment. Anything like this needs a lot of thought before doing anything.
I am drafting a formal complaint letter to him (or rather the Ltd company) that I will finalise after the visit.
It will clearly lay out the situation and what we require going forward such as monthly visits to view progress etc. I like to think that the man is not a "rouge" but just has so much going on he cant deal with it all in a timely manner. In his defence every thing I have seen completed has been to a high standard so don't think he would become a "bodger" and rush it, I hope.
Money wise he has been paid over 70k for the refurb plus a considerable amount for the purchase of the car from him, now over 100k We have receipted invoices for every penny but he is a Ltd company so personally no direct liability. We have enough documentation to prove ownership etc should he close the business so he wont be able to list the car as an asset, we are keeping a close eye on his companies on Gov.uk as well.
He will have had the car for 5 years in January and it was early 2022 that the body came out of paint and most ancillaries etc were refurbed and ready to fit. Since then he only seems to have reassembled the body so hope that the upcoming visit will show more progress, fingers crossed.
Will update after the meeting or if anything "odd" turns up on the Gov.uk site.
@Jas2000 exactly how we approached his excuses that now, after going through past emails, is in excess of 40. Going to take the hard approach now, his issues are not my problem such things, however personal, are for him and the business to deal with and will not be visited on us in the future.
My moto, I dont have problems, I only have solutions.-rant over
darreni said:
Your solution appears to be repeating past actions & hoping for a different outcome.
That's not going to happen, if you've been messed about for 5 years, your previous strategy has not worked. As others have said, go down, load up the car & parts and move to another restorer.
I have to say, I agree with this.That's not going to happen, if you've been messed about for 5 years, your previous strategy has not worked. As others have said, go down, load up the car & parts and move to another restorer.
I'm not sure you are going to get anywhere otherwise.
I have a similar situation but over a longer period. I've had good work from the restorer and he's always treated me well. I don't pay anything up front.
But we're not talking about me. I just wanted to say that the racing season is over. In theory, he doesn't have that to worry about, and perhaps you could push him to divert resources and manpower away from the racing programmes to finish your car. Just a thought.
But we're not talking about me. I just wanted to say that the racing season is over. In theory, he doesn't have that to worry about, and perhaps you could push him to divert resources and manpower away from the racing programmes to finish your car. Just a thought.
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff