Seat belt detection cameras and Classic cars

[Mark_Blanchard]

Hi All,

I understand these new camera's are being implemented on our roads to catch people not wearing seat belts. However my classic car, which was manufactured in 1969, only came with lap belts as standard. Are the new camera's going to be clever enough to see these being worn? I'm sure there are plenty of other people with older cars that either have lap belts or no belts at all. It won't be much fun paying a fine when the cars were designed that way.

What are you thoughts?

[Yertis]

I was once pulled over by a Policeman on a motorbike for "not wearing a seatbelt", which was incorrect as I showed him grabbing it and lifting it away from my shoulder. So I can easily imagine that some dumb robot will make the same false assumption.

[aeropilot]

I guess you are talking about the Chally?

Its awkward as being a later import as a used car, not a new car, as I have no idea how the seat belt regs will be implemented in such a situation?
I'm not sure how the UK seat belt laws will be applied in your case....as UK regs introduced in 1965 was a requirement for all new cars to have anchorage points, followed by the requirement in 1968 to fit three-point belts in the front outboard positions on all new cars and all existing cars back to 1965.
Front seat belts were compulsory equipment on all new cars registered in the UK from 1968.

So, technically, if your car would have been imported to UK when new, it would have had to have been fitted with 3-point shoulder belts rather than the US lap belts, but whether that would have been feasible or not I have no idea?

[Ambleton]

My wife's A35 didn't have any seatbelts as standard. I'm in the process of fitting 3point belts front and rear with some strengthening doubler load spreaders/weld in plates, I might also drop in some ISOFIX mounts whilst I'm here.

Children must be secured in a vehicle, if they're under 4yo, no belts/securing method, no travel. As my wife is pregnant, it makes sense as I want to be able to use the car within the next 4yrs.

[Turbobanana]

Assuming it links the image it takes to the reg number it sees, as a means of identifying who to send the NIP to, then a relatively simple algorithm should allow it to differentiate between cars that must have a seatbelt and those that don't have them.

Shame that investment is directed towards this rather than something that might benefit other road users: detecting phone use, for example. Or middle lane dominance. I struggle to believe that in 2024 there are people who don't wear seatbelts, but obviously there are. I guess it's just another money-making exercise though.

[aeropilot]

Ambleton said:

My wife's A35 didn't have any seatbelts as standard. I'm in the process of fitting 3point belts front and rear with some strengthening doubler load spreaders/weld in plates, I might also drop in some ISOFIX mounts whilst I'm here.

And the absurdity of that, is that *could* fall foul of the 12-point rule as its a structural modification to the bodyshell, and you could loose the 5 points, which would mean loss of historic VED status and need an IVA and a Q-plate.......

[velocemitch]

I wonder what these dum robots would make of full harnesses?

[tog]

The FBHVC have an article about this very topic in the current magazine that I have just reprinted in our club magazine.

FBHVC said:

Seat Belt Wearing Enforcement

New camera technology is being deployed to record the non-wearing of seat belts. When the offence is observed, and recorded, the registered keeper of the vehicle will be sent a Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP). However the procedure as it currently exists takes no account of historic vehicles where seat belts are not required to be fitted and, as an obvious consequence, are not required to be worn. The police view is that numbers are likely to be low but if it does occur the keeper should respond to the NIP with a suitable explanation.

[rovermorris999]

aeropilot said:

I guess you are talking about the Chally?

Its awkward as being a later import as a used car, not a new car, as I have no idea how the seat belt regs will be implemented in such a situation?
I'm not sure how the UK seat belt laws will be applied in your case....as UK regs introduced in 1965 was a requirement for all new cars to have anchorage points, followed by the requirement in 1968 to fit three-point belts in the front outboard positions on all new cars and all existing cars back to 1965.
Front seat belts were compulsory equipment on all new cars registered in the UK from 1968.

So, technically, if your car would have been imported to UK when new, it would have had to have been fitted with 3-point shoulder belts rather than the US lap belts, but whether that would have been feasible or not I have no idea?

I believe there is no exemption for imported cars so if you have a post-1968 car without a three point belt it is technically not roadworthy. Lap belts are ok up to 1968 only if there was only a two-point anchorage in the car when built. If there are three points available then a three-point belt must be fitted. I looked into this as I have a 1966 Corvette with lap belts, the rules are all on government websites. Be aware an insurance company will know this if you are unfortunate enough to have to make a claim and you have been injured.
Regarding the new cameras, I asked the same question a while ago. Apparently when a camera picks up what it thinks is someone not wearing a seat belt the image is supposed to be checked by a human. One would hope that their desk instructions and training would include checking the age of the car if it is obviously an old one and they would know the rules. However from what has been said in other posts it looks like a NIP may be issued which will be a pain.

[GoodOlBoy]

I'm surprised it's worth the effort.

I seldom see anyone not wearing a seatbelt, whereas drivers using mobile phones is commonplace and potentially far more dangerous to other road users.

[Turbobanana]

GoodOlBoy said:

I'm surprised it's worth the effort.

I seldom see anyone not wearing a seatbelt, whereas drivers using mobile phones is commonplace and potentially far more dangerous to other road users.

Exactly this, as alluded to in my post earlier. I suspect any older folk who drove before seatbelts became mandatory will have given up driving by now. Those who started driving more recently will have had their use drummed into them while learning.

[aeropilot]

GoodOlBoy said:

I seldom see anyone not wearing a seatbelt, whereas drivers using mobile phones is commonplace and potentially far more dangerous to other road users.

I agree regarding mobile phones, but the seat belt thing is probably dependant on where you live, as when I lived in London, spending a lot of time sitting in traffic going to-from work, looking for people on phones or not wearing seat belts became an idle pastime to relive the boredom of stationary traffic, and it wasn't to difficult to clock 4-5 people a day not wearing seat belts. Mostly van drivers and young female drivers were the main culprits not wearing seat belts in the area where I lived.
Now living out in the shires, I rarely see people not wearing belts, however the mobile phone use is just as bad.

[ARHarh]

Turbobanana said:

GoodOlBoy said:

I'm surprised it's worth the effort.

I seldom see anyone not wearing a seatbelt, whereas drivers using mobile phones is commonplace and potentially far more dangerous to other road users.

Exactly this, as alluded to in my post earlier. I suspect any older folk who drove before seatbelts became mandatory will have given up driving by now. Those who started driving more recently will have had their use drummed into them while learning.

But if when developing a camera to spot phone use, you can add seat belt wearing for a small amount of software its then worth doing surely.

[steveo3002]

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10000310813242.htm...

[aeropilot]

steveo3002 said:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10000310813242.htm...

Ideal for the OP as he has a LHD car

[rovermorris999]

I think the new AI cameras now being trialled can pick up phone use, again supposedly checked by a human if flagged.

[mac96]

Turbobanana said:

GoodOlBoy said:

I'm surprised it's worth the effort.

I seldom see anyone not wearing a seatbelt, whereas drivers using mobile phones is commonplace and potentially far more dangerous to other road users.

Exactly this, as alluded to in my post earlier. I suspect any older folk who drove before seatbelts became mandatory will have given up driving by now. Those who started driving more recently will have had their use drummed into them while learning.

You would think so, but in some road police programmes I have seen them stop (or respond to accidents involving) young morons who think they are too cool to wear belts. Unfortunately, still a thing.
And it does affect the rest of us- more injuries, more grieving relatives and more NHS cost, and unbelted rear passengers can injure belted front ones.

[drmike37]

Great idea. If you are stupid enough to not wear a seatbelt you are fair game for optional taxation.
For the number of pre 1968 cars around it’s probably fine that they just have to reply to the NiP with an explanation.
Or just buy some seatbelt webbing and pin it to your jumper?

[ZiggyNiva]

mac96 said:

Turbobanana said:

GoodOlBoy said:

I'm surprised it's worth the effort.

I seldom see anyone not wearing a seatbelt, whereas drivers using mobile phones is commonplace and potentially far more dangerous to other road users.

Exactly this, as alluded to in my post earlier. I suspect any older folk who drove before seatbelts became mandatory will have given up driving by now. Those who started driving more recently will have had their use drummed into them while learning.

You would think so, but in some road police programmes I have seen them stop (or respond to accidents involving) young morons who think they are too cool to wear belts. Unfortunately, still a thing.
And it does affect the rest of us- more injuries, more grieving relatives and more NHS cost, and unbelted rear passengers can injure belted front ones.

The number of cars i see with children climbing around all over the back seat always surprises me. Not sure how well these new cameras will pick up rear seat passangers though

[Mark_Blanchard]

rovermorris999 said:

I believe there is no exemption for imported cars so if you have a post-1968 car without a three point belt it is technically not roadworthy.

Are you sure? My car past the IVA standards when imported and has passed 5 MOTs and this wasn't mentioned either. A lot of US Chrysler, Dodge and Plymouth of that era had lap belts fitted. Also there aren't 3 anchorage points on my car.