What Makes a Jag, a Jaaag?

[Carsie]

Following on from the other thread "Nice Jag!", it set me wondering...

I'm a lifelong Jag fan, Dad was my formative custodian of a MK10 in black, from which my early adolescent, myopic, years were formed.

I've often said, and indeed it was true, that I was lucky in my childhood as my neighbours were relatively comfortable and thus the first primrose yellow E Type V12 was barely 500 yds away.

My neighbour had one of the first XJS, another a brace of XK120's was held by the dentist and other a 150 and the local car dealer (whom I "caught "in Shiremoor scrapyard with a bag full of speedo's) lol! had both XK1, a brown XK120 and later UUG 33M a beautiful navy blue E' V12 convertible that I couldn't afford at a measly £7,000.

The era was to Jag's, as today is to the BM and Audi, however, I digress.

Many years ago I was in a body shop where an XJ40 was being repaired and my slightly bemused friend queried why I fawned so much over it.

"It's because"...I started, as I ran my hand along it's flank...."it just fits, it's like a really nice, quality suit that you put on or perhaps a favourite pair of Loakes or W.H.Y. I can sit in a Jag and it just feels, comfortable, intuitively , right, it fits me, but that's ridiculous right?

I've had several Jags over the years, today my daily is a XK 5.0 , in the barn is the XJ40 Supercharged project and more recently acquired, my '69 S1 XJ6.

A Merc or BM? they just leave me cold; someone responded to an earlier post of mine, citing Gent or Thug.

Clarkson tried to define it, which was kinda true to the truth but over to you...what makes a Jag a Jaaaagg?

[reddiesel]

Like yourself I have been a lifelong "Jaguar Man" and only stopped buying them as after the F Type SVR , there was simply nothing else in the catalogue that interested me and sadly that remains the case . The X351 never appealed to me even to the extent of going to view an XJR 575 several times . I appreciate that many who own them speak highly of their capabilities but for me they lacked the litheness and delicacy in design that characterises a Jaguar . My dream Jaguar Garage would be the F Type SVR , the X350 Portfolio and the X150 XKR . I don't believe Jaguar ever bettered these three Cars in terms of Performance , Reliability and Durability and second hand values for the best are reflecting this reality

[dxg]

The thickness of the sheepskin jacket worn by the driver, of course.

[Mr Tidy]

The tights over the face, shooters and ill gotten gains in the boot until they crash into cardboard boxes once the Sweeney get after them in a Granada!

I think that probably dates me. To be fair back then the reality was rust, rust and a thirst for oil.

[craigjm]

A Jag is a Jag if it was built by the car company with the same name and carries the badge. Any other description leads to really boring arguments over what is and what is not a Jag. These are usually based on age and points in time references which in reality mean one likes some styling and not others. At the end of the day people said the mk10 didn’t look like a Jag, that the XJS didn’t look like a Jag and some others too but now strangely they are all Jags now they are old. Its a discussion that blights Jaguar ownership more than any other brand imo

Edited by craigjm on Monday 29th January 00:47

[reddiesel]

craigjm said:

A Jag is a Jag if it was built by the car company with the same name and carries the badge. Any other description leads to really boring arguments over what is and what is not a Jag. These are usually based on age and points in time references which in reality mean one likes some styling and not others. At the end of the day people said the mk10 didn’t look like a Jag, that the XJS didn’t look like a Jag and some others too but now strangely they are all Jags now they are old. Its a discussion that blights Jaguar ownership more than any other brand imo

Edited by craigjm on Monday 29th January 00:47

I don't think you can apply any of the above to the current range of mid market SUVS we are presented with as being Jaguars Craig . Its little more than a marketing ploy by Tata and bought by a completely different type of Buyer .
A quick glance over at the Jaguar section will confirm this by the almost complete dearth of I Pace , E Pace and indeed F Pace Owners contributing . They are almost certainly bought on the strength of Competitive Leasing Deals rather than any Love or Knowledge of the Brand or its Heritage .
This has been a far greater blight to Jaguar Ownership than an Enthusiast asking other Enthusiasts what in their opinion makes a Jaguar a Jaguar .
Looking back at the Mk10 I suppose its how you view the Car and what had gone before . As you say it certainly looks like a Jaguar in retrospect when we see it placed against the MK2 and the S Type . 30 year from now I don't believe they will say that when placing an I Pace against a Series 3 XJ .

[mph]

The last cars to have "Jaguarness" were the XK8/XKR and the X350/358 XJ's.

I've owned and enjoyed later Jags but to me they were just another decent modern car.

The XF and XJ saloons by Ian Callum diluted the individuality of the brand.

All IMHO of course.

[Turbobanana]

The people who own them.

The same type of people make a Mercedes-Benz a "Merc", a Rolls Royce a "Rolls" or a "Roller" and a BMW a "BM", "Beemer" or "Bimmer". Anything to save a few syllables, I guess.

[CABC]

wasn't there an element of continuity by having one man sign off on every finished product? Bill Lyons' car DNA remained for some time after him, as did the engines from his era. large smooth engines, long wheelbase and the gentleman's club interiors. This even survived BMC/BL who meddled more with the other brands. Didn't John Egan maintain that DNA?

[vpr]

I love a MK10. Black being the i I g on the cake.

I grew up around jags as my dad was big into the JEC being the Etype registrar.

He had a new V12 roadster in 73 u til 83, also had an XJ Coupe and a V12 S1 swb.

I’ve owned ma y and still do but they’ve completely gone pear shaped to me after the S3 XJ era.

Driven by old gumbies in the main these days, trundling along at 5 mph under

[Pica-Pica]

Get a Jag, and the world’s your lobster Terry.

[Gecko1978]

I think it's about what you picture in your head. Luxury British executive car....Jag

Modern efficient electric SUV....Kia Hyindai VW etc.

British sports car classic vibe. JAG MG Aston

An I pace etc are all JLR products of course but the heritage your buying into is more XJ and XK derived.

But then same applies to porsche (think 911, buy a macan), Aston Martin, think vantage buy DBX etc

[craigjm]

reddiesel said:

craigjm said:

A Jag is a Jag if it was built by the car company with the same name and carries the badge. Any other description leads to really boring arguments over what is and what is not a Jag. These are usually based on age and points in time references which in reality mean one likes some styling and not others. At the end of the day people said the mk10 didn’t look like a Jag, that the XJS didn’t look like a Jag and some others too but now strangely they are all Jags now they are old. Its a discussion that blights Jaguar ownership more than any other brand imo

Edited by craigjm on Monday 29th January 00:47

I don't think you can apply any of the above to the current range of mid market SUVS we are presented with as being Jaguars Craig . Its little more than a marketing ploy by Tata and bought by a completely different type of Buyer .
A quick glance over at the Jaguar section will confirm this by the almost complete dearth of I Pace , E Pace and indeed F Pace Owners contributing . They are almost certainly bought on the strength of Competitive Leasing Deals rather than any Love or Knowledge of the Brand or its Heritage .
This has been a far greater blight to Jaguar Ownership than an Enthusiast asking other Enthusiasts what in their opinion makes a Jaguar a Jaguar .
Looking back at the Mk10 I suppose its how you view the Car and what had gone before . As you say it certainly looks like a Jaguar in retrospect when we see it placed against the MK2 and the S Type . 30 year from now I don't believe they will say that when placing an I Pace against a Series 3 XJ .

And your response proves my point Reddiesel.

If you had only come to Jaguar post 2008 everything you say above is rubbish. If you have been looking at them since 1950 then it’s not. The view of a 70 year old very different to the view of a 20 year old etc etc.

My point is that it doesn’t matter what one personally thinks is a Jag or makes a Jag a Jag the only arbiter of that is the company that makes them regardless of who owns them. We have all the “ (enter model name) is not a Jag” or “the last real Jaguar was a (enter model name)” stuff but none of it matters in reality as it’s personal opinion. A Jaguar is a Jaguar if it says Jaguar on the car and v5. We all know full well this will all come about yet again when they show the first electric car of the new era. Some people will be wow and at the other end of the spectrum we will have people saying it’s not a Jag because Willie Lyons didn’t draw it. The company can’t win

[P5BNij]

I think it comes down to the DNA which somehow William Lyons managed to ingrain into every design he had a hand in, despite not being a trained draughtsman or artist. His last fling so to speak was the XJ Coupe but even after retirement in '72 he came back to Browns Lane regularly and was keen to make sure the XJ40 was every inch a Jaguar.

Since Vixen started the other Jag thread in October I've been thinking about them rather a lot, probably more than is healthy - missing my '73 S2 XJ6 and the regret of selling it has a lot to do with it. Just before Christmas I bought and read the Bill Lyons biography and John Egan's own book on how he managed to turn the company around after 1980, and now I can't stop thinking about 'the next Jag'.

For my Dad it was the thought of having a V12 XJ-S that defined what a Jag is or was, he never managed it but it always stayed with him. For me just lately it is definitely the Series XJs, although the '60s compact saloons have a lot to do with it...



Surely it must come down to 'grace, space and pace'...?

[I-am-the-reverend]

For me, it was anything made on Coventry, especially Browns Lane stuff. The current models mean nothing to me and could be anything with the badges removed.

The X and S Type are just meh, but I have always liked the original XF - still a pretty car 15 years on. The 3.0 V6 petrol really does drive nicely. The alloy X350 XJ6 is also a lovely thing.

[lowdrag]

I've had by Jaguar since the beginning of the 1980's. By the same token I am now on the 4th ring binder of bills for the same car, I've consumed 25,000 litres of petrol, but very little oil which is down to two engine rebuilds in the came time period, and countless spares and carry a comprehensive parts supply in the boot. You just get used to replacing a fuse, an oil pressure sender, and recycling the fuel pump that is always in the boot too. And if rallying with other less punctilious owners there is a fan belt, an oil filler and radiator cap for someone who has forgot to replace it, carburettor floats, and gaskets - the list goes on. But just the same, it is part and parcel of Jaguar ownership. But people still stare, ask questions, and I reply as best one can. Some don't like it because they are young, some love it just the same, and life goes on.

Edited by lowdrag on Monday 29th January 15:23

[Flumpo]

I don’t think it matters, whatever the electric jag they have been working on is, it won’t be accepted as whatever a jag is…. As the internet won’t be able to agree what that is. As someone above said, the xjs wasn’t accepted as a jag at first.

But if you asked me what a jag is, it’s ivory leather, loads of wood and a supercharged v8 in black. And the AA saved in your phone.

[craigjm]

P5BNij said:

Surely it must come down to 'grace, space and pace'...?

To my point above. How much of this really matters to a modern buyer? They stopped using this phrase for instance in 1968 yet it still regularly gets run out on pages like this.

Most of the people commenting on what makes a Jag a Jag are never going to buy a new one and as such the company making them is going to stick the badges on stuff they hope does actually sell. I am almost certain in the new era this will mean the new money that is currently buying Bentley so expect what makes a Jag a Jag to appeal to those people and those people only. In the cold world of business if you are buying the products regularly you are a customer and they want to know your opinion.

This leads me to think that the new cars will look a bit new money like the Bentley and Rolls stuff, offer similar personalisation but try in some way to “make it look like a Jag” who would be a car designer hey

[TarquinMX5]

Turbobanana said:

The people who own them.

The same type of people make a Mercedes-Benz a "Merc", a Rolls Royce a "Rolls" or a "Roller" and a BMW a "BM", "Beemer" or "Bimmer". Anything to save a few syllables, I guess.

A 'Rolls'? It's a 'Royce', Dear Boy, a 'Royce' .

[P5BNij]

I-am-the-reverend said:

For me, it was anything made on Coventry, especially Browns Lane stuff. The current models mean nothing to me and could be anything with the badges removed.

The X and S Type are just meh, but I have always liked the original XF - still a pretty car 15 years on. The 3.0 V6 petrol really does drive nicely. The alloy X350 XJ6 is also a lovely thing.

I had an XF 2 litre as a courtesy car a while back and really liked it, the ride was rather nice and it was much quicker than I expected, not tried a V6 though - perhaps I should. I was looking at the 2006 onwards XK Coupes on Autotrader last night, I've always liked these two.

Just about every road test of any model from the '60s, 70s and '80s presses home the fact that Jaguar managed to give exceptional value for money compared to their competitors (perceived or otherwise) and I think this also has a lot to do with the essence of what a Jag is. At launch in '68 the XJ6 was said to have the best combination of ride, refinement and luxury than anything else costing twice as much, which says a lot.