Mercedes 190E 2.3-16 raced by Niki Lauda for auction.
Discussion
Besides being a classic, this really is a piece of history.
https://www.carthrottle.com/news/buy-mercedes-190e...
https://www.carthrottle.com/news/buy-mercedes-190e...
I-am-the-reverend said:
Now that is something.
I never had the chance to drive one but I'm told they were lovely things to drive.
The Senna one is also still around afaik...?
A car underrated by many would be a fair assessment, imo.I never had the chance to drive one but I'm told they were lovely things to drive.
The Senna one is also still around afaik...?
Yep, Senna's is still in the museum, I recall it was mounted up high near reception.
That looks awesome 
We had a 2.5 16v road car that I never thought much of (a 'mistreated' example perhaps?), trying to recreate the action seen in the little footage there is from that race in 1984 never felt like what the car wanted to be doing. Be interesting to see how high the ex-Lauda car gets bid up to!
We had a 2.5 16v road car that I never thought much of (a 'mistreated' example perhaps?), trying to recreate the action seen in the little footage there is from that race in 1984 never felt like what the car wanted to be doing. Be interesting to see how high the ex-Lauda car gets bid up to!CKY said:
That looks awesome We had a 2.5 16v road car that I never thought much of (a 'mistreated' example perhaps?), trying to recreate the action seen in the little footage there is from that race in 1984 never felt like what the car wanted to be doing. Be interesting to see how high the ex-Lauda car gets bid up to!
That's how I noticed the article, I had a 2.5 also and for long time too, did many miles in it. I loved it being candid. Truly a great car. We had a 2.5 16v road car that I never thought much of (a 'mistreated' example perhaps?), trying to recreate the action seen in the little footage there is from that race in 1984 never felt like what the car wanted to be doing. Be interesting to see how high the ex-Lauda car gets bid up to!JJJ. said:
That's how I noticed the article, I had a 2.5 also and for long time too, did many miles in it. I loved it being candid. Truly a great car.
Nice, yes I often wondered what had happened to our car in the past, it just didn't seem very 'good' compared to the consensus of pundits/road tests etc. The steering was lifeless, the gearchange vague/notchy (far worse than a E30 320i/325i), the suspension seemed to have little interest in controlling bodyroll, and that stupid bloody 'LSD' that they fitted was dreadful - one tyre bonfire in the middle of a bend, then as soon as you start unwinding lock both wheels would lock and you'd get a lovely snap of oversteer on corner exit. Funny what we remember about certain cars isn't it?CKY said:
JJJ. said:
That's how I noticed the article, I had a 2.5 also and for long time too, did many miles in it. I loved it being candid. Truly a great car.
Nice, yes I often wondered what had happened to our car in the past, it just didn't seem very 'good' compared to the consensus of pundits/road tests etc. The steering was lifeless, the gearchange vague/notchy (far worse than a E30 320i/325i), the suspension seemed to have little interest in controlling bodyroll, and that stupid bloody 'LSD' that they fitted was dreadful - one tyre bonfire in the middle of a bend, then as soon as you start unwinding lock both wheels would lock and you'd get a lovely snap of oversteer on corner exit. Funny what we remember about certain cars isn't it?As for the dogleg gearbox, it does take a bit of getting use too but the secret is using the correct oil and refreshing the gear linkage bushes, or uprate to brass one's. The throw can even be shortened.
Suspension, just like everything else on old cars gets tired, I overhauled mine and uprated the front shocks & springs as they badly needed it @ 100K miles, fresh hydraulic fluid, spheres and adjusted the self levelling valve. Slightly bigger and wider wheels along with modern tyres really helped too. The tyres were key from memory. As are suspension bushes
Any major problems with the ASD/LSD is usually down to worn clutch plates or hard abuse by the previous owner. Diff bearings can go, ideal time to fit new plates, I think mine had an extra one or maybe two. It's a rather sophisticated traction control system for the 80's and along with the multi link rear axle overall for the time it was probably hard to better.
Like everything else buy a bad one and the novitly is soon lost. Buy a good one and get it tip top and it's chalk and cheese. Same goes for any car really.
Don't get me wrong it had some flaws like the gearing, non adjustable steering column, checking the valve clearances every 10-12k miles was pain, the seats are not supportive enough, rust becomes an issue especially when the car gets to twenty plus years old. I'm sure there's few other gripes I've forgotten about but still in my book they're a great car. I averaged almost 6k miles during the summer & autumn for nine years, when everywhere.
Would I buy another, ideally yes but there's other cars to tick off the list for similar money today (c.30k).
JJJ. said:
I found fitting a 360/370mm st.wheel helped a lot but adjusting the steering box (there's a specific nut) made a major difference. You'd still have the German 'autobahn sneeze factor' built in, as in some play in dead ahead but once lock was applied I personally couldn't fault the steering. New steering linkages and idler bush makes a big difference too
As for the dogleg gearbox, it does take a bit of getting use too but the secret is using the correct oil and refreshing the gear linkage bushes, or uprate to brass one's. The throw can even be shortened.
Suspension, just like everything else on old cars gets tired, I overhauled mine and uprated the front shocks & springs as they badly needed it @ 100K miles, fresh hydraulic fluid, spheres and adjusted the self levelling valve. Slightly bigger and wider wheels along with modern tyres really helped too. The tyres were key from memory. As are suspension bushes
Any major problems with the ASD/LSD is usually down to worn clutch plates or hard abuse by the previous owner. Diff bearings can go, ideal time to fit new plates, I think mine had an extra one or maybe two. It's a rather sophisticated traction control system for the 80's and along with the multi link rear axle overall for the time it was probably hard to better.
Like everything else buy a bad one and the novitly is soon lost. Buy a good one and get it tip top and it's chalk and cheese. Same goes for any car really.
Don't get me wrong it had some flaws like the gearing, non adjustable steering column, checking the valve clearances every 10-12k miles was pain, the seats are not supportive enough, rust becomes an issue especially when the car gets to twenty plus years old. I'm sure there's few other gripes I've forgotten about but still in my book they're a great car. I averaged almost 6k miles during the summer & autumn for nine years, when everywhere.
Would I buy another, ideally yes but there's other cars to tick off the list for similar money today (c.30k).
God, where were you when I needed you 15 years ago?! As for the dogleg gearbox, it does take a bit of getting use too but the secret is using the correct oil and refreshing the gear linkage bushes, or uprate to brass one's. The throw can even be shortened.
Suspension, just like everything else on old cars gets tired, I overhauled mine and uprated the front shocks & springs as they badly needed it @ 100K miles, fresh hydraulic fluid, spheres and adjusted the self levelling valve. Slightly bigger and wider wheels along with modern tyres really helped too. The tyres were key from memory. As are suspension bushes
Any major problems with the ASD/LSD is usually down to worn clutch plates or hard abuse by the previous owner. Diff bearings can go, ideal time to fit new plates, I think mine had an extra one or maybe two. It's a rather sophisticated traction control system for the 80's and along with the multi link rear axle overall for the time it was probably hard to better.
Like everything else buy a bad one and the novitly is soon lost. Buy a good one and get it tip top and it's chalk and cheese. Same goes for any car really.
Don't get me wrong it had some flaws like the gearing, non adjustable steering column, checking the valve clearances every 10-12k miles was pain, the seats are not supportive enough, rust becomes an issue especially when the car gets to twenty plus years old. I'm sure there's few other gripes I've forgotten about but still in my book they're a great car. I averaged almost 6k miles during the summer & autumn for nine years, when everywhere.
Would I buy another, ideally yes but there's other cars to tick off the list for similar money today (c.30k).
Yeah I rebuilt the shifter mechanism with brass bushings, replaced the gearbox oil etc etc, just couldn't believe how bad it felt compared to other doglegs of the period, eg. E30 M3, E28 M5, people I spoke to rubbished other Mercedes manual gearchanges of the period so I put it down to being a 'Merc Thing', and ostensibly why they'd just started building their cars as automatics.
Agreed on the ASD, technically it was great, however never once gave me the same result or pleasure as using a conventional LSD - would probably have been great when new, however at 15 years old it was most definitely cack and little different to an open differential.
Ahh yes I forgot about the seats - why on Earth fit front seats like that when they made the rear bench the most sculpted, awesome looking pew i've seen in a 90s saloon? F90 M5CS eat your heart out
15 years ago, funny that. I bought mine in 2007/8.
Did a lot of basic work myself, time factor wasn't great for me then but used a man that really knew his onions when it came to these cars, that made the big difference. Getting the head overhauled plus the t-chain and injection system, transformed the old girl and it wasn't that expensive at the time.
I can't comment really much more on the diff but it had 25 or 30% lock up from the factory iirc, a bit more with a few extra clutches added and 100% when ASD intervened at a certain speed from memory. Sure, it could have been better I suppose, but for a fast road car I'd no gripes with it.
Did a lot of basic work myself, time factor wasn't great for me then but used a man that really knew his onions when it came to these cars, that made the big difference. Getting the head overhauled plus the t-chain and injection system, transformed the old girl and it wasn't that expensive at the time.
I can't comment really much more on the diff but it had 25 or 30% lock up from the factory iirc, a bit more with a few extra clutches added and 100% when ASD intervened at a certain speed from memory. Sure, it could have been better I suppose, but for a fast road car I'd no gripes with it.
Edited by JJJ. on Tuesday 5th September 20:19
CKY said:
God, where were you when I needed you 15 years ago?!
Yeah I rebuilt the shifter mechanism with brass bushings, replaced the gearbox oil etc etc, just couldn't believe how bad it felt compared to other doglegs of the period, eg. E30 M3, E28 M5, people I spoke to rubbished other Mercedes manual gearchanges of the period so I put it down to being a 'Merc Thing', and ostensibly why they'd just started building their cars as automatics.
Agreed on the ASD, technically it was great, however never once gave me the same result or pleasure as using a conventional LSD - would probably have been great when new, however at 15 years old it was most definitely cack and little different to an open differential.
Ahh yes I forgot about the seats - why on Earth fit front seats like that when they made the rear bench the most sculpted, awesome looking pew i've seen in a 90s saloon? F90 M5CS eat your heart out
Wasn’t the box in the Merc broadly the same as the E30 M3? Friend still has his 2.5-16, previously had a cheap 2.3-16 which succumbed to tinworm ( and which I never thought felt like 185bhp ). The 2.5 he’s got feels much quicker , absolutely planted at the back through corners, to the extent that I found it didn’t seem as much fun as the contemporary BMW/Ford.Yeah I rebuilt the shifter mechanism with brass bushings, replaced the gearbox oil etc etc, just couldn't believe how bad it felt compared to other doglegs of the period, eg. E30 M3, E28 M5, people I spoke to rubbished other Mercedes manual gearchanges of the period so I put it down to being a 'Merc Thing', and ostensibly why they'd just started building their cars as automatics.
Agreed on the ASD, technically it was great, however never once gave me the same result or pleasure as using a conventional LSD - would probably have been great when new, however at 15 years old it was most definitely cack and little different to an open differential.
Ahh yes I forgot about the seats - why on Earth fit front seats like that when they made the rear bench the most sculpted, awesome looking pew i've seen in a 90s saloon? F90 M5CS eat your heart out
The Merc does have a proper quality feel to it though
This car sold before?
http://web.archive.org/web/20180422083442/https://...
https://www.motorlegend.com/actualite-automobile/a...
The seller was still trying to sell it a year later
http://www.collectiblewheels.com/news/2019/1/21/ni...
Are cars for 1-off exhibition races now historic? Lauda spent less than 30 minutes in this car, as he missed practice.
This car is variously reported as being "recommissioned" or "rebuilt" in 2017.
http://web.archive.org/web/20180422083442/https://...
https://www.motorlegend.com/actualite-automobile/a...
The seller was still trying to sell it a year later
http://www.collectiblewheels.com/news/2019/1/21/ni...
Are cars for 1-off exhibition races now historic? Lauda spent less than 30 minutes in this car, as he missed practice.
This car is variously reported as being "recommissioned" or "rebuilt" in 2017.
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