Ignition upgrade - worth doing??
Discussion
Hi all. I seem to be having endless issues with my ignition system of my 89 Lotus Esprit and I am thinking about upgrading to an electronic system.
Has anyone done it and what exactly does it do? The distributor is ridiculously difficult to get to on my car and to have something which can be set up via Bluetooth seems a really good idea. In addition does it remove other parts such as coil, amplifier etc etc? My car doesn’t have points.
Just wondered if anyone had upgraded from standard distributor and what their experience was like.
Has anyone done it and what exactly does it do? The distributor is ridiculously difficult to get to on my car and to have something which can be set up via Bluetooth seems a really good idea. In addition does it remove other parts such as coil, amplifier etc etc? My car doesn’t have points.
Just wondered if anyone had upgraded from standard distributor and what their experience was like.
Edited by audi321 on Thursday 1st June 02:14
A lot depends what you mean when you say "an electronic system".
I'm at the extream end of things, running Megajolt fully mappable ignition on my Spitfire and while the most expensive/complicated version of "an electronic system" I have zero regrets as it made the biggest single difference to the reliability and drivablity of the car of anything I've done.
To go Megajolt you basically need:
- Megajolt/E Mk2 ECU
- Ford EDIS ignition control module
- Ford EDIS coil pack
- Crank mounted trigger wheel
- Crank sensor mounted a few mm from the face of the trigger wheel
- Either a throttle position sensor (TPS) or manifold vacuum feed (MAP)
Most of that goes in the engine bay, with the ECU hidden inside the car and you can either remove/blank off the distributor - or just leave it there with nothing connected if it's easier. You can source/make parts independently or pay a little extra for the convienience of a kit from someone like trigger-wheels.com, who I used. There's no Bluetooth, at least yet, but equally just a USB C cable on the current E Mk2 version that links to your laptop.
Once installed the base map should run the car (actually it will run with just the EDIS control module) and you may be able to find a closer map someone's posted online but to get the most out of it you then need a rolling road session where you can get the ignition timing just where your engine wants it for each load site.
As I said probably made the biggest difference to the drivability of my tuned Spitfire that could either be given the big chunk of advance it wanted to run at low RPM (then have too much at higher RPM) or have the correct advance for high RPM (and need 2,000RPM to pull away from the traffic lights) using weights and springs. Now it will pull away from idle at the lights and pull all the way through the rev. range - to the point a garage who've worked on ym car before asked if I'd swapped the 1300cc for a 1500cc the first time they drove it post-conversion.
I'm at the extream end of things, running Megajolt fully mappable ignition on my Spitfire and while the most expensive/complicated version of "an electronic system" I have zero regrets as it made the biggest single difference to the reliability and drivablity of the car of anything I've done.
To go Megajolt you basically need:
- Megajolt/E Mk2 ECU
- Ford EDIS ignition control module
- Ford EDIS coil pack
- Crank mounted trigger wheel
- Crank sensor mounted a few mm from the face of the trigger wheel
- Either a throttle position sensor (TPS) or manifold vacuum feed (MAP)
Most of that goes in the engine bay, with the ECU hidden inside the car and you can either remove/blank off the distributor - or just leave it there with nothing connected if it's easier. You can source/make parts independently or pay a little extra for the convienience of a kit from someone like trigger-wheels.com, who I used. There's no Bluetooth, at least yet, but equally just a USB C cable on the current E Mk2 version that links to your laptop.
Once installed the base map should run the car (actually it will run with just the EDIS control module) and you may be able to find a closer map someone's posted online but to get the most out of it you then need a rolling road session where you can get the ignition timing just where your engine wants it for each load site.
As I said probably made the biggest difference to the drivability of my tuned Spitfire that could either be given the big chunk of advance it wanted to run at low RPM (then have too much at higher RPM) or have the correct advance for high RPM (and need 2,000RPM to pull away from the traffic lights) using weights and springs. Now it will pull away from idle at the lights and pull all the way through the rev. range - to the point a garage who've worked on ym car before asked if I'd swapped the 1300cc for a 1500cc the first time they drove it post-conversion.
Edited by //j17 on Thursday 1st June 08:20
Save yourself the complexity and install a programmable system from https://www.123ignitionshop.com/gb/
I upgrade my classics to this system and have never regretted for a moment. Cars start easier, make more power and torque and it looks like a dizzy so not out of place.
For circa £350.00 it will be the best investment you have made.
I upgrade my classics to this system and have never regretted for a moment. Cars start easier, make more power and torque and it looks like a dizzy so not out of place.
For circa £350.00 it will be the best investment you have made.
I have a 1984 Turbo Esprit and I recently fitted a 123 distributor. It was very easy and I immediately noticed the engine runs better. It is the one with the Bluetooth feature. I am in the US and I bought it from Barry Spencer in California. He is a Lotus specialist and ex Lotus engineer. He bought and pre-programmed some 123 distributors. It’s worth dropping him an email to discuss.
There were some vacuum connections for me to plug but the US spec cars have a lot of emission stuff on them. The wiring was very simple and it bypasses the amplifier. As there is no vacuum disc on the side of the distributor body you can rotate the unit without it hitting the oil filter to set the timing.
There were some vacuum connections for me to plug but the US spec cars have a lot of emission stuff on them. The wiring was very simple and it bypasses the amplifier. As there is no vacuum disc on the side of the distributor body you can rotate the unit without it hitting the oil filter to set the timing.
You don't need to connect the amplifier. The version of the 123 I got has 3 wires. 2 go to the coil and one to engine ground/earth. You have to make sure the engine is at TDC on #1 piston compression stroke (use the crank pulley, flywheel and cam pulleys per the service manual for this) That will ensure you know where the rotor arm should be pointing to #1 cylinder. Instructions are included and 123 have a YouTube channel you can watch for help. I suggest you watch them. On the Bluetooth version you have to programme the ignition curve into it. You need to know that information. Barry Spencer has that and my 123 unit came from him already programmed. He told me to set my ignition to 10 degree BTDC at idle.
It sounds like you might want to get someone to do this for you unless you buy it from Barry. But postage from the US to the UK will be expensive.
It sounds like you might want to get someone to do this for you unless you buy it from Barry. But postage from the US to the UK will be expensive.
I concur the 123 is a good bit of kit, the early ones had to be removed to tweak the curves, a PITA. If now programmable via Bluetooth massive step forward. I found I needed new HT leads too, a pretty useful forum on thier website too.
I set mine up to a pretty close curve then used a local hill to tweak and make sure it wasn't pinking.
I set mine up to a pretty close curve then used a local hill to tweak and make sure it wasn't pinking.
Edited by PositronicRay on Thursday 1st June 14:56
I did both - the Megajolt route on a Lotus TC engine with trigger wheel and TPS on the carbs, and the 123 solution on a 2.0 Alfa Nord.
Both worked well but the biggest transformation was on the Lotus TC where starting and running manners were massively improved with the Megajolt system (and more so after a RR set up)
For simplicity though the 123 solution is much easier and I would probably use it again for that reason
Both worked well but the biggest transformation was on the Lotus TC where starting and running manners were massively improved with the Megajolt system (and more so after a RR set up)
For simplicity though the 123 solution is much easier and I would probably use it again for that reason
Thanks guys. Ordered from SCParts.co.uk. Spoken in length to a knowledgeable Mark Monahue. Extremely interesting guy who knows an awful lot about cars and ignition systems in particular.
So I've got the old distributor off the car (I haven't set anything to TDC! Have I already made a mistake??). Only as I wanted to confirm it was a Lucas 45DM4 (which it was).
Mark made it all sound simple. 3 wires (1 to ground, 1 to negative coil, 1 to positive coil which is switched 12v). Surely its not that easy?? I have an ignition amplifier and rev limiter, both with wires to them, and going god knows where and from! What am I going to do with these? I also have 2 vacuum pipes to my current distributor, again, what will happen to these!
I bought a new coil under the advice of Mark, he said it would be safer (ok another £80, but at least I'll know the whole system is right)
I'm starting to think I'm in above my knowledge depth!
So I've got the old distributor off the car (I haven't set anything to TDC! Have I already made a mistake??). Only as I wanted to confirm it was a Lucas 45DM4 (which it was).
Mark made it all sound simple. 3 wires (1 to ground, 1 to negative coil, 1 to positive coil which is switched 12v). Surely its not that easy?? I have an ignition amplifier and rev limiter, both with wires to them, and going god knows where and from! What am I going to do with these? I also have 2 vacuum pipes to my current distributor, again, what will happen to these!
I bought a new coil under the advice of Mark, he said it would be safer (ok another £80, but at least I'll know the whole system is right)
I'm starting to think I'm in above my knowledge depth!
Edited by audi321 on Thursday 1st June 15:43
audi321 said:
I'm starting to think I'm in above my knowledge depth!
You could well be right as you have gone from an electronic ignition system (no points and an ignition amp) to a different electronic system. What was the problem you were trying to solve?Presumably the new system doesn't need a vacuum advance? So you can block off the vacuum pipes. You'll need to work out if your new system needs the ignition amp. I'd phone the man up and ask him!
Then have you got a suitable ignition advance curve to use for the engine? What did the man say?
BertBert said:
You could well be right as you have gone from an electronic ignition system (no points and an ignition amp) to a different electronic system. What was the problem you were trying to solve?
Presumably the new system doesn't need a vacuum advance? So you can block off the vacuum pipes. You'll need to work out if your new system needs the ignition amp. I'd phone the man up and ask him!
Then have you got a suitable ignition advance curve to use for the engine? What did the man say?
He said I only need the vacuum pipe from the inlet manifold.Presumably the new system doesn't need a vacuum advance? So you can block off the vacuum pipes. You'll need to work out if your new system needs the ignition amp. I'd phone the man up and ask him!
Then have you got a suitable ignition advance curve to use for the engine? What did the man say?
He said I don't need the amplifier or rev limiter.
I'm booked in at a rolling road in 3 weeks for tuning session, so I assume they'll do the tuning curves etc, I just need to get it fitted and working to drive it there.
audi321 said:
He said I only need the vacuum pipe from the inlet manifold.
As I went the MegaJolt route I'm no expert on 123 distributors but from what I've seen, in addition to the 3 electrical connections they take a vacuum input too. This is going to work just like the vacuum input to a MegaJolt and internally the software will use that + engine RPM to work out what load the engine is under, which will map to an advance cell in the map and tell it what advance to use.audi321 said:
He said I don't need the amplifier or rev limiter.
Certainly the rev limiter side is probably managed internally by the software, either cutting the spark completely at the rev limit or retarding it towards TDC so while the fuel burns it's 'chasing' the piston down the bore rather than pushing it.audi321 said:
I'm booked in at a rolling road in 3 weeks for tuning session, so I assume they'll do the tuning curves etc, I just need to get it fitted and working to drive it there.
Yep, get it fitted and working before you go and it should run "OK" on the default map (just drive like a grandma to the rolling road and save driving like you stole it for the drive back). Most issues with any electronic ignition conversion are generally down to the installation rather than the kit itself and finding/fixing them in your own garage only costs you your time. Doing that at a rolling road will cost you £100/hr and eat into the time available to map things.And I take it the rolling road know you're coming in for a 123 Distributor mapping session? Not all rolling roads are familiar with/like all electronic ignition systems.
On an Espirt, I would have gone with modern ECU type distributor-less system, just because of the inaccessibility of the horizontal dizzy on the 900 Series engine.
I was talking to a Lotus-Sunbeam owner at Wheels Day this year that had fitted such a system for that very reason, and as a ex-Lotus-Sunbeam owner myself that remembers the hassle of that bloody horizontal dizzy (especially when trying to tune on a RR!) I was very impressed with the conversion, plus the fact that the little black leccy ignition modules on the Sunbeam-Lotus are pretty hard to find now.
I was talking to a Lotus-Sunbeam owner at Wheels Day this year that had fitted such a system for that very reason, and as a ex-Lotus-Sunbeam owner myself that remembers the hassle of that bloody horizontal dizzy (especially when trying to tune on a RR!) I was very impressed with the conversion, plus the fact that the little black leccy ignition modules on the Sunbeam-Lotus are pretty hard to find now.
I dont know about bluetooth stuff, but fitted the 123 ignition to my fiat and it saved it from a serious fire, so would def reccomend it.
The brass fuel line barb came out of the carb spraying the entire engine bay in loads of petrol. If I had a dizzy the car would have burnt nothing.
The brass fuel line barb came out of the carb spraying the entire engine bay in loads of petrol. If I had a dizzy the car would have burnt nothing.
I bought the XKSS 22 years ago with Lumenition already fitted and it has run faultlessly ever since. It is fairly highly tuned by the way. I fitted 123 to the E-type five years ago (arthritic fingers so can no longer play with points) and once again a faultness performance. I;d buy with no worries if I was you.
audi321 said:
That’s one of the reasons I went bluetooth. Just because of the inaccessible distributor location.
I did consider the distributor less one but it was significantly more expensive.
Yes, but, I think well worth it. Maybe more so on a modified Sunbeam if you are rolling road tuning more often, which you might not do on a road going standard Espirt, as trying to tweek the dizzy while on the rollers, and stopping the bloody thing flying out as soon as you unclamp it, is a complex exercise in dexterity that can only be accomplished while wearing long sleeve burn proof gloves while holding the dizzy in place a long bar I did consider the distributor less one but it was significantly more expensive.
Whilst i appreciate you have already spent some money, I do think it is worth considering “investing “ in prevention and going fuel injection or mappable ignition at least.
All my old Westfields and the TVR chimaera junked all the 70’s technology in a heart beat and moved to full spark and fule mapping.
Jenvey heritage bodies look just like webbers so can replicate the look and feel and while there are quite a few bits to getting this all done, the reliability is worth it. No coil issues, no ballast resistors, no distributor cap and arm issues….. just works.
Just had a look at the 123 ignition stuff and to be honest it may well be a good solution, but I do prefer the movement to modem coils and ECU control….. but that is just me.
Good luck.
All my old Westfields and the TVR chimaera junked all the 70’s technology in a heart beat and moved to full spark and fule mapping.
Jenvey heritage bodies look just like webbers so can replicate the look and feel and while there are quite a few bits to getting this all done, the reliability is worth it. No coil issues, no ballast resistors, no distributor cap and arm issues….. just works.
Just had a look at the 123 ignition stuff and to be honest it may well be a good solution, but I do prefer the movement to modem coils and ECU control….. but that is just me.
Good luck.
Edited by markcoopers on Monday 12th June 17:42
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