Only a devotee - difficult to own but not expensive to buy!
Discussion
There are many forum posts and magazine articles expounding the merits of some classics as being easy to own. Usually because parts are easy to get, there is a very supportive club, lots of specialists, simple mechanics that are easily fixed and many upgrades that have been tested and developed over the years, etc. etc. MGs and Triumphs, for example.
So what's the opposite? Obviously a Ferrari 250 would take a lot of looking after, I guess there are only a small number of people who you'd allow to rebuild the engine, but then you'd expect a very expensive car to be difficult to care for.
So I'm wondering about something not particularly expensive to buy but very difficult to own?
So what's the opposite? Obviously a Ferrari 250 would take a lot of looking after, I guess there are only a small number of people who you'd allow to rebuild the engine, but then you'd expect a very expensive car to be difficult to care for.
So I'm wondering about something not particularly expensive to buy but very difficult to own?
My work pal has a Jowett Jupiter Special. Loads had special bodies as lot went through coach builders.
That's fairly awkward. Alloy coach built body with some steel in there too for the corrosion, relatively complex steel space frame chassis and fully independent torsion bar suspension. Don't think they really used any parts from anywhere else, including the flat 4 OHV engine.
How about 70/80s RR? Can be picked up for a few grand... But those hydraulics though...
That's fairly awkward. Alloy coach built body with some steel in there too for the corrosion, relatively complex steel space frame chassis and fully independent torsion bar suspension. Don't think they really used any parts from anywhere else, including the flat 4 OHV engine.
How about 70/80s RR? Can be picked up for a few grand... But those hydraulics though...
Possibly a "newtimer".
Cars made 20-25 years ago will have electronics that might start to go wrong and will be made of plastics and rubber which will be starting to harden and perish.
The parts won't be easily repairable or replaceable if they are specific to the model and that model wasn't particularly common in period.
I'm thinking of cars like the Ford Cougar and Subaru SVX.
Cars made 20-25 years ago will have electronics that might start to go wrong and will be made of plastics and rubber which will be starting to harden and perish.
The parts won't be easily repairable or replaceable if they are specific to the model and that model wasn't particularly common in period.
I'm thinking of cars like the Ford Cougar and Subaru SVX.
Ambleton said:
I was thinking exactly of hydraulics as i own a late 80's Citroen BX - i dont know if its any more or less complicated than that pic but it feels it - and not only controls the suspension but the steering and brakes too, makes me not want to mess with it. There's a limited pool of talent/experience so maintenance tends to cost.Otherwise its a simple enough car but i've already managed to spend nearly 4 times the (admittedly low) purchase cost
jimmytheone said:
Ambleton said:
I was thinking exactly of hydraulics as i own a late 80's Citroen BX - i dont know if its any more or less complicated than that pic but it feels it - and not only controls the suspension but the steering and brakes too, makes me not want to mess with it. There's a limited pool of talent/experience so maintenance tends to cost.Otherwise its a simple enough car but i've already managed to spend nearly 4 times the (admittedly low) purchase cost
Also. Because it's a RR parts are not only hard to come by. But also expensive.
Rolls Royce did steal a fair amount of the system from Citroen, but I'm fairly confident that the twin calipers and associated hydraulic circuitry is unique to the RR.
Ambleton said:
jimmytheone said:
Ambleton said:
I was thinking exactly of hydraulics as i own a late 80's Citroen BX - i dont know if its any more or less complicated than that pic but it feels it - and not only controls the suspension but the steering and brakes too, makes me not want to mess with it. There's a limited pool of talent/experience so maintenance tends to cost.Otherwise its a simple enough car but i've already managed to spend nearly 4 times the (admittedly low) purchase cost
Also. Because it's a RR parts are not only hard to come by. But also expensive.
Rolls Royce did steal a fair amount of the system from Citroen, but I'm fairly confident that the twin calipers and associated hydraulic circuitry is unique to the RR.
Ambleton said:
Because its a RR parts are...also expensive.
Absolutely!I imagine its bits of trim and interior which are most difficult to get hold of for older cars so interior damage like cracked dashboards or wood damage would be pricey.
getting a full interior for that BiTurbo mentioned above!
Interiors you can get re-trimmed by a craftsman.
It might not be original, but it will keep the car on the road.
A lot of modern-era cars have a lot of plastic in the cooling system, among other places.
That's critical and what are you going to do when it goes brittle and cracks?
21st century cars have a lot of inaccessible body electrics, what's that going to be like at 25 years old?
What about cars which are modern enough to have fairly strict emissions limits, how easy will they be to get through an MoT in future?
What about all those bikes with legally dubious aftermarket pipes?
Cars with complicated transmissions?
Older, simpler vehicles, it is amazing what amateurs and small businesses can make and mend.
It might not be original, but it will keep the car on the road.
A lot of modern-era cars have a lot of plastic in the cooling system, among other places.
That's critical and what are you going to do when it goes brittle and cracks?
21st century cars have a lot of inaccessible body electrics, what's that going to be like at 25 years old?
What about cars which are modern enough to have fairly strict emissions limits, how easy will they be to get through an MoT in future?
What about all those bikes with legally dubious aftermarket pipes?
Cars with complicated transmissions?
Older, simpler vehicles, it is amazing what amateurs and small businesses can make and mend.
Ambleton said:
The great thing about the RR is the twin calipers per wheel, the hydro-mechanical anti dive system that applies the rear brakes, firms up the front suspension then applies the front brakes.
Also. Because it's a RR parts are not only hard to come by. But also expensive.
Rolls Royce did steal a fair amount of the system from Citroen, but I'm fairly confident that the twin calipers and associated hydraulic circuitry is unique to the RR.
The Silver Shadow used Girling G16 brake calipers and pads - identical to the Ford Cortina Mk1/Mk2. The only difference is that the Silver Shadow used two calipers per front wheel rather than one. The parts themselves are identical and you can save a bundle by buying 'Ford' brake pads over 'Rolls-Royce' ones. Also. Because it's a RR parts are not only hard to come by. But also expensive.
Rolls Royce did steal a fair amount of the system from Citroen, but I'm fairly confident that the twin calipers and associated hydraulic circuitry is unique to the RR.
I think the Citroen hydropneumatic system comes in for a lot of unfair stick for its reputation of being some unfathomably complicated system that is beyond the wit of man to understand. It's actually pretty simple and at the 'business end' has far fewer individual parts than a conventional steel spring/damper system. It's just very different rather than difficult. Once the principles are understood it's extremely logical and quite basic (until you start getting into the Hydractive/Activa variants with electronic controls working in parallel with the hydraulics, at least). It's just components connected by metal pipes on the HP side and rubber hoses on the LP side, with green spheres in place of springs and dampers and a proportional valve in place of a brake master cylinder. It's no more complicated or difficult to understand than a hydraulic power steering system, but a lot of owners (and certainly a lot of garages) just assume it requires a Breton jersey and an MEng in hydraulic engineering to do even routine maintenance and so just don't do any...which then feeds into the notion that all hydraulic Citroens are unreliable viper's nests of pipes and hoses spewing green fluid everywhere and falling onto their haunches for no reason.
2xChevrons said:
The Silver Shadow used Girling G16 brake calipers and pads - identical to the Ford Cortina Mk1/Mk2. The only difference is that the Silver Shadow used two calipers per front wheel rather than one. The parts themselves are identical and you can save a bundle by buying 'Ford' brake pads over 'Rolls-Royce' ones.
I think the Citroen hydropneumatic system comes in for a lot of unfair stick for its reputation of being some unfathomably complicated system that is beyond the wit of man to understand. It's actually pretty simple and at the 'business end' has far fewer individual parts than a conventional steel spring/damper system. It's just very different rather than difficult. Once the principles are understood it's extremely logical and quite basic (until you start getting into the Hydractive/Activa variants with electronic controls working in parallel with the hydraulics, at least). It's just components connected by metal pipes on the HP side and rubber hoses on the LP side, with green spheres in place of springs and dampers and a proportional valve in place of a brake master cylinder. It's no more complicated or difficult to understand than a hydraulic power steering system, but a lot of owners (and certainly a lot of garages) just assume it requires a Breton jersey and an MEng in hydraulic engineering to do even routine maintenance and so just don't do any...which then feeds into the notion that all hydraulic Citroens are unreliable viper's nests of pipes and hoses spewing green fluid everywhere and falling onto their haunches for no reason.
This.I think the Citroen hydropneumatic system comes in for a lot of unfair stick for its reputation of being some unfathomably complicated system that is beyond the wit of man to understand. It's actually pretty simple and at the 'business end' has far fewer individual parts than a conventional steel spring/damper system. It's just very different rather than difficult. Once the principles are understood it's extremely logical and quite basic (until you start getting into the Hydractive/Activa variants with electronic controls working in parallel with the hydraulics, at least). It's just components connected by metal pipes on the HP side and rubber hoses on the LP side, with green spheres in place of springs and dampers and a proportional valve in place of a brake master cylinder. It's no more complicated or difficult to understand than a hydraulic power steering system, but a lot of owners (and certainly a lot of garages) just assume it requires a Breton jersey and an MEng in hydraulic engineering to do even routine maintenance and so just don't do any...which then feeds into the notion that all hydraulic Citroens are unreliable viper's nests of pipes and hoses spewing green fluid everywhere and falling onto their haunches for no reason.
Former colleague used to run a BX turbo diesel and would change all 4 spheres, plus the accumulator one, every year. It took minutes, and he always had "as new" ride and handling.
CoupeKid said:
Possibly a "newtimer".
Cars made 20-25 years ago will have electronics that might start to go wrong and will be made of plastics and rubber which will be starting to harden and perish.
The parts won't be easily repairable or replaceable if they are specific to the model and that model wasn't particularly common in period.
I'm thinking of cars like the Ford Cougar and Subaru SVX.
Yeah I think you're on the right tracks. On the case of the Cougar though, front control arms are specific to only the Cougar and Mk.2 Mondeo ST200 and obviously body panels, light units etc are specific to the Cougar. Electronic bits and almost all other mechanicals are shared with the Mk.1 and Mk.2 Mondeo though so not that hard to get. Subaru SVX might be a whole different kettle of fish.Cars made 20-25 years ago will have electronics that might start to go wrong and will be made of plastics and rubber which will be starting to harden and perish.
The parts won't be easily repairable or replaceable if they are specific to the model and that model wasn't particularly common in period.
I'm thinking of cars like the Ford Cougar and Subaru SVX.
As an owner myself, the Jaguar XJ-S is a car which has a reputation for being expensive to own and hence cheap to buy and I can see how that could or even would be the case for an owner without tools, knowledge or skill. The hands-off owner will spend a lot having someone else keep an XJ-S in good condition. That said, I personally have found the horror stories massively over-blown from my perspective as a hands-on and reasonably competent DIYer. They're not that difficult to work on and parts aren't that hard to obtain nor especially expensive. They definitely suit owners who think before they act though - logic and systematic approach must prevail. The sort of person who just jumps in with side cutters, a reel of wire and a packet of crimps trying to jury-rig their way round an issue will destroy the car's wiring loom without fixing the original issue 11 times out of 10 before proclaiming these cars are a nightmare to work on. If they're American they will then rip out the engine and fit a Chevy V8 with carburettors because that's as far as their comprehension stretches whilst if they're British it'll be pushed outside to rust away in the weather.
CoupeKid said:
Possibly a "newtimer".
Cars made 20-25 years ago will have electronics that might start to go wrong and will be made of plastics and rubber which will be starting to harden and perish.
The parts won't be easily repairable or replaceable if they are specific to the model and that model wasn't particularly common in period.
I'm thinking of cars like the Ford Cougar and Subaru SVX.
I agree... but it may be that 3d printing comes to the rescue. I'm learning how specifically to make Quattro bits.Cars made 20-25 years ago will have electronics that might start to go wrong and will be made of plastics and rubber which will be starting to harden and perish.
The parts won't be easily repairable or replaceable if they are specific to the model and that model wasn't particularly common in period.
I'm thinking of cars like the Ford Cougar and Subaru SVX.
I've got a mid 70's Peugeot 304 cabriolet. Very cheap car, fairly rare, and quite a pain to get bits for. A few of the LHD parts don't the UK spec RHD drive cars so hunting on French ebay and suppliers requires care. Silly things like trying to get wheels balanced where the wheel is 3 stud with no hole in the middle. The cabriolet rear suspension is different to the saloons and estates.
As I said easy car to own, but a right minefield when getting parts.
As I said easy car to own, but a right minefield when getting parts.
eccles said:
I've got a mid 70's Peugeot 304 cabriolet. Very cheap car, fairly rare, and quite a pain to get bits for. A few of the LHD parts don't the UK spec RHD drive cars so hunting on French ebay and suppliers requires care. Silly things like trying to get wheels balanced where the wheel is 3 stud with no hole in the middle. The cabriolet rear suspension is different to the saloons and estates.
As I said easy car to own, but a right minefield when getting parts.
This is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind when I started the thread. Also- 304 cabriolets are great. Good for you!As I said easy car to own, but a right minefield when getting parts.
I have a Riley RMB.
The bodies were coachbuilt in the old fashioned way and tended to fall apart, or rust away.
Unfeasibly expensive to rebuild one unless you can do it yourself, and that requires serious skills and time.
It doesn't share the British parts bin approach of many others from the fifties.
Cheap as chips except for the convertibles.
The bodies were coachbuilt in the old fashioned way and tended to fall apart, or rust away.
Unfeasibly expensive to rebuild one unless you can do it yourself, and that requires serious skills and time.
It doesn't share the British parts bin approach of many others from the fifties.
Cheap as chips except for the convertibles.
CoupeKid said:
Possibly a "newtimer".
Cars made 20-25 years ago will have electronics that might start to go wrong and will be made of plastics and rubber which will be starting to harden and perish.
The parts won't be easily repairable or replaceable if they are specific to the model and that model wasn't particularly common in period.
I'm thinking of cars like the Ford Cougar and Subaru SVX.
Very interesting as regards newish cars. However does anyone seriously covet a Cougar. Seriously undesirable when new and time has done it no favours. Cars made 20-25 years ago will have electronics that might start to go wrong and will be made of plastics and rubber which will be starting to harden and perish.
The parts won't be easily repairable or replaceable if they are specific to the model and that model wasn't particularly common in period.
I'm thinking of cars like the Ford Cougar and Subaru SVX.
Who on earth back in the day would have bought one of these over an Alfa GTV, BMW 3 Series Coupe or Fiat Coupe.
shih tzu faced said:
Biturbo era Maserati?
I really like these cars but can’t help thinking any little problem could involve some painful financial dentistry. Still doesn’t stop me wanting one though!
Even 4200-era cars are becoming harder since part supply is just not there for certain items...I really like these cars but can’t help thinking any little problem could involve some painful financial dentistry. Still doesn’t stop me wanting one though!
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