Rebody, evocation, sanction IIII or replica
Discussion
I know that, when I first joined this platform, I saturated it with information and pictures of this car so forgive me if you have already seen it. The only reason I feel compelled to share it again is because of the reaction it caused. Some felt that it was a replica that should never have been created whilst others viewed it as being something slightly more special. In rough terms, the car is an original DB4 GT that has a DB4 GT Zagato body on it. (either a left over body from the original zagato run, a body made by zagato at the time of re rebody in the late 90’s or a body made by zagato somewhere in between. My apologies for not knowing the detail on that) I am aware that the DB4 GT is a special car in its own right which I believe is the main reason for some to view such a change to be sacrilegious.
I personally refer to the car as being a DB4 GT rebodied with a zagato body and there is no attempt to pass the car as an original zagato. I am aware that many will say that it’s identity is dependent on whether the body that is currently on the car is a left over body from the original run or if it was a body that was created in the late 90’s.
Some people have said that, with replica zagatos being less desirable and valuable than original DB4 GT’s, they would not personally have done this. However, my view is that the car is not a replica as it is one of only 2 DB4 GT’s (both with neighbouring chassis numbers) to wear a zagato body that are not considered part of the original production run and I believe the only DB4 GT (not part of the original zagato production) to wear a genuine body built by zagato. (The other car was converted for racing and believe it is a recreation body)
With this in mind I would love to know what everyone’s opinions are on this subject. I would ask for complete honesty at no expense to my feelings but I’m not sure that is necessary as most people on here seem to be very open and honest about how they feel about things which is no bad thing!
I’ve attached a picture or two to help with the decision making process.
I personally refer to the car as being a DB4 GT rebodied with a zagato body and there is no attempt to pass the car as an original zagato. I am aware that many will say that it’s identity is dependent on whether the body that is currently on the car is a left over body from the original run or if it was a body that was created in the late 90’s.
Some people have said that, with replica zagatos being less desirable and valuable than original DB4 GT’s, they would not personally have done this. However, my view is that the car is not a replica as it is one of only 2 DB4 GT’s (both with neighbouring chassis numbers) to wear a zagato body that are not considered part of the original production run and I believe the only DB4 GT (not part of the original zagato production) to wear a genuine body built by zagato. (The other car was converted for racing and believe it is a recreation body)
With this in mind I would love to know what everyone’s opinions are on this subject. I would ask for complete honesty at no expense to my feelings but I’m not sure that is necessary as most people on here seem to be very open and honest about how they feel about things which is no bad thing!
I’ve attached a picture or two to help with the decision making process.
Edited by Amfanjosh on Tuesday 21st February 23:18
Edited by Amfanjosh on Tuesday 21st February 23:18
It’s a beautiful car, which I’m assuming from the tone of your post is yours, why would you be concerned about what others think, the only time that will be of a concern is when and if it comes up for sale, then it will need an accurate description of how it came into being and what components were used, the price you will get will reflect how others view its creation.
Personally I’d just use it and enjoy it, I would have thought that unless you are at an AM show, and someone has an axe to grind, most people would react positively to it ?
Personally I’d just use it and enjoy it, I would have thought that unless you are at an AM show, and someone has an axe to grind, most people would react positively to it ?
I do absolutely get that. In general I am not concerned about what others think and how I view the car is the most important part. The reason for the post was just to try and start a conversation I thought would be interesting as I am sure there are many other similar examples in the classic world that have interesting stories behind it. And it is always interesting to get peoples views on the subject because I am sure everyone would view it differently. I was hoping the chat would transition into talking about Ferrari 250 replicas that use Ferrari 250 chassis or Porsche 911 swb rs recreations/evocations to name a few.
OP, my personal take is that it's hard for people to comment when the cost of the rebody - never mind the base car - probably exceeds the value of most folks' houses.
That out of the way, it's pant-wettingly gorgeous and would be a privilege to see in the flesh, let alone drive. Enjoy it guilt-free, I say. Some things that happened in the past were the product of less than brilliant decisions made at the time, but they are what they are: at least you won't fall foul of the woke brigade banning the singing of "Delilah" at rugby matches, or re-writing Roald Dahl classics because some of the words are a bit questionable.
PS swap you for a slightly ratty 1971 Triumph GT6?
That out of the way, it's pant-wettingly gorgeous and would be a privilege to see in the flesh, let alone drive. Enjoy it guilt-free, I say. Some things that happened in the past were the product of less than brilliant decisions made at the time, but they are what they are: at least you won't fall foul of the woke brigade banning the singing of "Delilah" at rugby matches, or re-writing Roald Dahl classics because some of the words are a bit questionable.
PS swap you for a slightly ratty 1971 Triumph GT6?
Your car has provenance - that is, it has a verifiable, continuous & transparent history... as per the Stanley Mann case...
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff7e260d0...
The fact that it has a genuine Zagato body adds to its interest value - it unapologetically is what it is... a genuine DB4 GT rebodied with a genuine DB4 Zagato body...which makes it unique.
This car has an interesting story which should be told with pride, transparency & bemusement - it remains a beautiful thing.
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff7e260d0...
The fact that it has a genuine Zagato body adds to its interest value - it unapologetically is what it is... a genuine DB4 GT rebodied with a genuine DB4 Zagato body...which makes it unique.
This car has an interesting story which should be told with pride, transparency & bemusement - it remains a beautiful thing.
Yes, enjoy it for what it is, life's too short.
I never liked the look of the Zagato, but a DB4 GT is my favourite Aston, so I can understand why in the circumstances some feel its somewhat sacrilegious to have done this, but, likely when it was done, the Zag was seen by some as the more desirable car to have rather than an 'ordinary' GT.
Times and tastes change though, and the car is what it is, and as such needs to be driven and enjoyed for what it is.
I never liked the look of the Zagato, but a DB4 GT is my favourite Aston, so I can understand why in the circumstances some feel its somewhat sacrilegious to have done this, but, likely when it was done, the Zag was seen by some as the more desirable car to have rather than an 'ordinary' GT.
Times and tastes change though, and the car is what it is, and as such needs to be driven and enjoyed for what it is.
I think it's gorgeous, and have never understood some of the venom that is directed at "replicas" etc. by some enthusiasts. To my mind, it's a highly desirable car, with beautiful lines, based on the sort of running gear that most enthusiasts would love and appreciate.
In some ways, cars like these have a lot in common with the old specials and hot rods - forget what they may have been from the factory and respect and enjoy them for what they are.
A world apart from your car, but I also appreciate the likes of BMW Z based Ferrari inspired creations... for those of us who have no hope of being able to afford "the real thing".
In some ways, cars like these have a lot in common with the old specials and hot rods - forget what they may have been from the factory and respect and enjoy them for what they are.
A world apart from your car, but I also appreciate the likes of BMW Z based Ferrari inspired creations... for those of us who have no hope of being able to afford "the real thing".
I'd just enjoy it for what it is, enjoy its unique history and don't worry about other people's opinions. If it had been rebodied in the '60s hardly anyone would bat an eyelid, the fact that the rebodying occurred thirty odd years later is meaningless really.
As an aside, very little of Sir Nigel Gresley's wonderful A3 Pacific loco 'Flying Scotsman' is left of the 1923 original, it has had numerous new boilers, axles, wheels etc and has been renumbered twice, yet people still love it for what it is and what it represents. Life is way too short to worry about such things
As an aside, very little of Sir Nigel Gresley's wonderful A3 Pacific loco 'Flying Scotsman' is left of the 1923 original, it has had numerous new boilers, axles, wheels etc and has been renumbered twice, yet people still love it for what it is and what it represents. Life is way too short to worry about such things
Edited by P5BNij on Thursday 23 February 13:04
Interesting. In terms of 'sacrilege' or not I assume the car needed a rebuild/re-body when the conversion was undertaken in the 90s in which case there is no harm done as a correct body could always be put on later. All that would require is patience and a lot of cash. I certainly would not re-body as a Zagato a perfectly good ordinary GT as, numbering only 75, they are pretty rare in their own right.
Being a genuine period GT certainly makes it more desirable (and valuable) in my book than the Sanction cars and a world away from the typical evocations built on a cut down DB4 chassis.
It is also a big plus if the body was actually manufactured by Zagato but you would need good evidence to support that.
I am aware of the other re-bodied GT that you mentioned. If we are thinking of the same car, that started life as a regular GT and was mucked around with by Works Service in the late 60s to give it a DB6-style rear and flush door handles and some other bits and bobs. The books say that the work was not of the best standard. At some point a later owner had the car re-bodied as a Zagato, reputedly by the Zagato factory, and it went racing. It has relatively recently been put into road spec and looks absolutely glorious. If there was any sacrilege in the process in my book that occured when it was turned into a DB6 GT in the 60s. I do have pics of this car but do not have the owner's permission to post them so instead I attach a picture of my own regular cooking GT taken at Salon Prive a few years ago.
Being a genuine period GT certainly makes it more desirable (and valuable) in my book than the Sanction cars and a world away from the typical evocations built on a cut down DB4 chassis.
It is also a big plus if the body was actually manufactured by Zagato but you would need good evidence to support that.
I am aware of the other re-bodied GT that you mentioned. If we are thinking of the same car, that started life as a regular GT and was mucked around with by Works Service in the late 60s to give it a DB6-style rear and flush door handles and some other bits and bobs. The books say that the work was not of the best standard. At some point a later owner had the car re-bodied as a Zagato, reputedly by the Zagato factory, and it went racing. It has relatively recently been put into road spec and looks absolutely glorious. If there was any sacrilege in the process in my book that occured when it was turned into a DB6 GT in the 60s. I do have pics of this car but do not have the owner's permission to post them so instead I attach a picture of my own regular cooking GT taken at Salon Prive a few years ago.
That car is a thing of beauty and if others view it differently, that's immaterial and, if it was mine, wouldn't concern me one iota.
A chap near me has had one (and a DB5) since the early 90s, if not before, though I haven't seen it since Covid and it was good to see it being given a good exercise on the local roads. Unfortunately, when I had the opportunity to see it at close quarters many years ago, I wasn't fully aware of the slight differences between the original ones and the Sanction models, so I'm not sure whether it's an original or not.
If I owned yours, I would enjoy it for what it is and wouldn't lose any sleep if a few people were snooty because it wasn't 'an original'; the vast majority of people, including many Aston 'fans', wouldn't know in any event. The question is, do people buy/own things because they like them, or to please somebody else.
A chap near me has had one (and a DB5) since the early 90s, if not before, though I haven't seen it since Covid and it was good to see it being given a good exercise on the local roads. Unfortunately, when I had the opportunity to see it at close quarters many years ago, I wasn't fully aware of the slight differences between the original ones and the Sanction models, so I'm not sure whether it's an original or not.
If I owned yours, I would enjoy it for what it is and wouldn't lose any sleep if a few people were snooty because it wasn't 'an original'; the vast majority of people, including many Aston 'fans', wouldn't know in any event. The question is, do people buy/own things because they like them, or to please somebody else.
Amfanjosh said:
either a left over body from the original zagato run, a body made by zagato at the time of re rebody in the late 90’s or a body made by zagato somewhere in between.
or a body made in Wakefield last week. Pretty car, liked then since I saw them at the Coys Silverstone Classics. If one if going to ask top dollar, then I'd suggest the provence story needs to be much better. Sanction IV is v. good.
Personnally I'd want a VEV plate on it. A few years ago at Classic LeMans, a friend of a friend had (a replica) with a VEV plate. He enjoyed winding up the purists, and was enjoying the car.
It's a stunning car. If it's a genuine DB4 GT Zagato body on a genuine DB4 GT chassis then I don't see any issue and I certainly wouldn't call it a replica. Do you know the reason for the rebody?
Either way it's a fabulous thing, with arguably a more interesting story than either an original DB4 or Zagato!
Either way it's a fabulous thing, with arguably a more interesting story than either an original DB4 or Zagato!
It seems to be very much marque dependent as to any vitriol that is thrown around in relation to such conversions.
Top of the tree is Ferrari, the haters tend to not even own an example yet feel the need to tell all and sundry that they despise such things, and demand cars they do not even own are put back to the shoddy way in which they left the factory.
Astons seem to have a more open minded following.
It is not like people are buying up nice examples and having them converted, whichever marque it may be, the donors are typically beyond saving, and the original parts that are not required go back into the pool of resources which allow the better examples to live on.
Enjoy your car, and continue to be open and honest about its background and true enthusiasts will make themselves known to you.
Top of the tree is Ferrari, the haters tend to not even own an example yet feel the need to tell all and sundry that they despise such things, and demand cars they do not even own are put back to the shoddy way in which they left the factory.
Astons seem to have a more open minded following.
It is not like people are buying up nice examples and having them converted, whichever marque it may be, the donors are typically beyond saving, and the original parts that are not required go back into the pool of resources which allow the better examples to live on.
Enjoy your car, and continue to be open and honest about its background and true enthusiasts will make themselves known to you.
Amfanjosh said:
I personally refer to the car as being a DB4 GT rebodied with a zagato body and there is no attempt to pass the car as an original zagato. I am aware that many will say that it’s identity is dependent on whether the body that is currently on the car is a left over body from the original run or if it was a body that was created in the late 90’s.
Some people have said that, with replica zagatos being less desirable and valuable than original DB4 GT’s, they would not personally have done this. However, my view is that the car is not a replica as it is one of only 2 DB4 GT’s (both with neighbouring chassis numbers) to wear a zagato body that are not considered part of the original production run and I believe the only DB4 GT (not part of the original zagato production) to wear a genuine body built by zagato. (The other car was converted for racing and believe it is a recreation body)
I doubt that it is a genuine Zagato body, unless you have documented proof then to me it is a replica plain and simple, considering how many have been built now by specialists.Some people have said that, with replica zagatos being less desirable and valuable than original DB4 GT’s, they would not personally have done this. However, my view is that the car is not a replica as it is one of only 2 DB4 GT’s (both with neighbouring chassis numbers) to wear a zagato body that are not considered part of the original production run and I believe the only DB4 GT (not part of the original zagato production) to wear a genuine body built by zagato. (The other car was converted for racing and believe it is a recreation body)
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