Classic cars and ULEZ question
Discussion
So, Khan is continuing his crusade to expand ULEZ to all London boroughs and I now find myself with 3 cars that don't comply, 1 of which is a daily for my wife so will need to be sold. I don't want another modern car so I've been hunting for a pre-84 BMW e28 or Saab 900 which both tick the boxes for me. Found a great one at the weekend, 520i, all original, registered in June 1983 so it gets historic status this summer ahead of new ULEZ. All good, lovely car, silky smooth, feeling very smug! Took it to my local car meet on Sunday. Got chatting to a guy who told me that whilst the DVLA accept its historic status at the 40 year anniversary, TFL do not and you need to wait till the following April to be exempt, i.e April 2024 for me. I guess i'll have to suck up the charge but its taken the shine off somewhat! Can anyone confirm if this is correct and if there is anyway around it? I've looked at TFL site about the exemption and it doesn't mention the April date.
And because we all like a picture!....
And because we all like a picture!....
Your issue is the Historic classification, not TfL.
Whilst the car will be 40-years old in June, the rules state that if on Jan 1st of xx-year, then from April 1st, it can be regd as historic, so April 1st 2024. It is not 40-years after build/regn.
It is, however, exempt from mot at 40-years: why nothing matches is beyond me but that's govt policies for you.
Whilst the car will be 40-years old in June, the rules state that if on Jan 1st of xx-year, then from April 1st, it can be regd as historic, so April 1st 2024. It is not 40-years after build/regn.
It is, however, exempt from mot at 40-years: why nothing matches is beyond me but that's govt policies for you.
Yes, you won't be able to apply for historic status until April 2024. You will have to continue to pay VED if used on the road until it becomes 'historic.' This is the current rule for pre 1983 cars:
https://www.gov.uk/historic-vehicles
The reason is that the 40 year rule has to be allowed to 'roll forward' every year as released in the Spring budget along with tax rates, VED etc. It has been rolled forward ever year since it was re-introduced in 2014 at 40 y.o. (It was frozen at 25 y.o. ie pre 1973 cars by Gordon Brown) but I don't expect this to continue indefinitely. Perhaps 2041 when all UK cars will have emission data?
On the upside, it will become MoT exempt immediately upon being 40 years old.
Edited to add: Nice car by the way, a good prospect as a reliable runner to avoid ULEZ.
https://www.gov.uk/historic-vehicles
The reason is that the 40 year rule has to be allowed to 'roll forward' every year as released in the Spring budget along with tax rates, VED etc. It has been rolled forward ever year since it was re-introduced in 2014 at 40 y.o. (It was frozen at 25 y.o. ie pre 1973 cars by Gordon Brown) but I don't expect this to continue indefinitely. Perhaps 2041 when all UK cars will have emission data?
On the upside, it will become MoT exempt immediately upon being 40 years old.
Edited to add: Nice car by the way, a good prospect as a reliable runner to avoid ULEZ.
Edited by sixor8 on Monday 6th February 13:15
Surely the cost of the vehicle, awful fuel consumption and getting shafted on insurance (which will limit your mileage anyway) isn't going to offset the cost of paying ULEZ?
Are you going to rack up a fee every day?
I know there has been chat about classic being the way to go with ULEZ but if you're truly driving your classic car every day to offset the cost your insurance premium for a guaranteed value is going to be sky high no?
Are you going to rack up a fee every day?
I know there has been chat about classic being the way to go with ULEZ but if you're truly driving your classic car every day to offset the cost your insurance premium for a guaranteed value is going to be sky high no?
If your BMW was registered in June 1983 there is a slight chance that it was manufactured in 1982, if that was so you would now be historic, probably unlikely but worth checking.
https://www.gov.uk/historic-vehicles
https://www.gov.uk/historic-vehicles
Edited by Stevepolly on Tuesday 7th February 23:21
TheLoraxxZeus said:
Surely the cost of the vehicle, awful fuel consumption and getting shafted on insurance (which will limit your mileage anyway) isn't going to offset the cost of paying ULEZ?
Are you going to rack up a fee every day?
I know there has been chat about classic being the way to go with ULEZ but if you're truly driving your classic car every day to offset the cost your insurance premium for a guaranteed value is going to be sky high no?
It will be driven 5-7 days a week. Thats £4500 pa ULEZ fees if I carried on using my 2011 Alpina which won't now comply.Are you going to rack up a fee every day?
I know there has been chat about classic being the way to go with ULEZ but if you're truly driving your classic car every day to offset the cost your insurance premium for a guaranteed value is going to be sky high no?
MPG on a 2 litre petrol being driven 5 miles a day isn't on my radar of concerns
It cost me £7k to buy and I'm doubtful it will depreciate, unlike putting the same money into a 2016 + BMW of the same value. It will certainly give me 100% more smiles to the mile.
Insurance is cheaper on classics and doesn't have to be mileage restricted. I'd guesstimate my insurance is cheaper on my 8 classic cars than many peoples policy on a single Range Rover.
I know its all man maths but it really does make sense for me, maybe not everyone else.
Stevepolly said:
If your BMW was registered in June 1983 there is a slight chance that it was manufactured in 1982, if that was so you would now be historic, probably unlikely but worth checking.
https://www.gov.uk/historic-vehicles
This is the stuff! Wonder how I find out the build date, would I need to contact BMW? https://www.gov.uk/historic-vehicles
Edited by Stevepolly on Tuesday 7th February 23:21
mat205125 said:
Slight tangent .....
...... is the loophole that permits older cars something that's likely to get closed at some point very soon, or are there enough royals and wealthy tory contributors within the region, with classic cars, to keep this option open?
Mr Khan is probably not a fan of royals or wealthy tory contributors....... is the loophole that permits older cars something that's likely to get closed at some point very soon, or are there enough royals and wealthy tory contributors within the region, with classic cars, to keep this option open?
A quick Google gave me these numbers for the current zone, the expansion will obviously at least double them.......
On an average day (24 hour period) in the scheme's first month of operation around 32,100 non-compliant vehicles were detected in the zone. Of these:
Around 17,400 (54 per cent) paid the charge 4,300 ULEZ web or call centre payments, 8,200 Auto Pay payments and 4,900 ULEZ Fleet charge payments).
Around 3,000 (9 per cent) were in contravention of the scheme and issued with a warning notice on the first offence.
Around 11,700 (37 per cent) were not required to pay the daily ULEZ charge as they are eligible for a 100 per cent discount or exemption.........
So I would think that every London member of Pistonheads could buy an exempt classic and they wouldn't even notice.
On an average day (24 hour period) in the scheme's first month of operation around 32,100 non-compliant vehicles were detected in the zone. Of these:
Around 17,400 (54 per cent) paid the charge 4,300 ULEZ web or call centre payments, 8,200 Auto Pay payments and 4,900 ULEZ Fleet charge payments).
Around 3,000 (9 per cent) were in contravention of the scheme and issued with a warning notice on the first offence.
Around 11,700 (37 per cent) were not required to pay the daily ULEZ charge as they are eligible for a 100 per cent discount or exemption.........
So I would think that every London member of Pistonheads could buy an exempt classic and they wouldn't even notice.
mat205125 said:
Slight tangent .....
...... is the loophole that permits older cars something that's likely to get closed at some point very soon, or are there enough royals and wealthy tory contributors within the region, with classic cars, to keep this option open?
Given some of the TFL proposals for 2025/26 (that were included within the expansion docs and have been posted / detailed by DonkeyApple in the main ULEZ threads in General Gassing), regarding transitioning to charging per mile driven, etc, then i think it's fair to say the classic exemption that currently exists will probably get pulled / scaled back at some point and charges for use introduced....... is the loophole that permits older cars something that's likely to get closed at some point very soon, or are there enough royals and wealthy tory contributors within the region, with classic cars, to keep this option open?
AlexRS2782 said:
mat205125 said:
Slight tangent .....
...... is the loophole that permits older cars something that's likely to get closed at some point very soon, or are there enough royals and wealthy tory contributors within the region, with classic cars, to keep this option open?
Given some of the TFL proposals for 2025/26 (that were included within the expansion docs and have been posted / detailed by DonkeyApple in the main ULEZ threads in General Gassing), regarding transitioning to charging per mile driven, etc, then i think it's fair to say the classic exemption that currently exists will probably get pulled / scaled back at some point and charges for use introduced....... is the loophole that permits older cars something that's likely to get closed at some point very soon, or are there enough royals and wealthy tory contributors within the region, with classic cars, to keep this option open?
I can't find anything re the proposed implementation of black box charging or the earlier step of levying the fixed fee on all ICE in the zone that suggests classics will be included but I can't see anything that says they won't.
My gut feeling is that as they tried to include them in the initial ULEZ criteria but lost then they will do so again and again until they get them covered.
In 2025 the cleaner vehicle exemption to the CCZ is being removed. That will be the first opportunity to remove Historics.
25/26 is the proposal to apply ULEZ fees to all private vehicles including EVs. It's seems very unlikely that Historics would be omitted if that were enacted.
In short there is very little to defend an argument that our Historics will somehow, for some reason be granted special exemption when even EVs are to be taxed for murdering children.
There would need to be a big political reversal to stop this now.
DonkeyApple said:
In 2025 the cleaner vehicle exemption to the CCZ is being removed. That will be the first opportunity to remove Historics.
25/26 is the proposal to apply ULEZ fees to all private vehicles including EVs. It's seems very unlikely that Historics would be omitted if that were enacted.
In short there is very little to defend an argument that our Historics will somehow, for some reason be granted special exemption when even EVs are to be taxed for murdering children.
Hang on a minute......so you are saying that the current exemption from ULEZ charging if you have a Euro 4 petrol or Euro 6 diesel will stop anyway from 25/26....?25/26 is the proposal to apply ULEZ fees to all private vehicles including EVs. It's seems very unlikely that Historics would be omitted if that were enacted.
In short there is very little to defend an argument that our Historics will somehow, for some reason be granted special exemption when even EVs are to be taxed for murdering children.
That's only 2 or 3 years away, so are you really going to save any money by changing pre-Aug23, when you new compliant car won't be compliant within only 2/3 years time?
Glad I got out of London 4 years ago......!
aeropilot said:
Hang on a minute......so you are saying that the current exemption from ULEZ charging if you have a Euro 4 petrol or Euro 6 diesel will stop anyway from 25/26....?
That's only 2 or 3 years away, so are you really going to save any money by changing pre-Aug23, when you new compliant car won't be compliant within only 2/3 years time?
Glad I got out of London 4 years ago......!
Yes. One of the proposals is to levy a fee on all car types and to then offer the installation of black boxes that will tax per mile, per time of day, per route and also auto tax for any monitored safety infractions such as exceeding 20mph. That's only 2 or 3 years away, so are you really going to save any money by changing pre-Aug23, when you new compliant car won't be compliant within only 2/3 years time?
Glad I got out of London 4 years ago......!
It's important to note this is a proposal but to date all such proposals have been forced through regardless of any view of the electorate.
The intent of ULEZ has always been as a stepping stone to road charging. It has never been about spending £billions on taxation infrastructure to just tax a small number of older cars that are getting replaced rapidly through basic attrition and won't ever generate the revenue to pay for the infrastructure. The long term intent has always been road charging, all that has changed post 2020 is that the dates have been moved forward.
So yes, the fix of simply replacing on old ICE car with another less old ICE car offers the user a respite from taxation not an absolution.
Likewise for me, the decision in 2016 to move out of London full time after 45 years, saw the impending restrictions on my personal choice of cars being a contributing factor. Along with proposals in Hampstead at the time to curb movement by car through the pedestrianisation of Swiss Cottage which would have considerably increased the amount of traffic congestion in NW3.
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