Modern/furture classics
Discussion
On these pages we've outlined classics we love or cherish or simply lust after.
I don't think I'm alone in being the type who isn't really into modern cars much- my 993 is about as new as I'd like to go really. It's an easy cliche to say "They don't build them like they used to", but cars in many ways have gotten better, more robust and sophisticated. However are there modern cars that LEAP out at you- in defintanately destined to become classics (whatever that means!).
What post 1993 RELEASED cars do you envisage - are going to become classics and why? Or do you believe that there was a "golden era" with cars and anything after a cut off date can't be considered a classic?
These are my choices :
993 Porsches series as being furture/modern classics, mainly due to being
last of the air cooled- and incredibly well build evolution of an enduring theme
Jaguar XK series coupes, mainly for their styling, the ll new V8 engine and being an effortless GT car- where there wasn't serious opposition ( the Bimmer 850 was bargelike, the 928 was all but dead).
Lotus Elise: back to routes, innovative lightweight sports car.
I don't think I'm alone in being the type who isn't really into modern cars much- my 993 is about as new as I'd like to go really. It's an easy cliche to say "They don't build them like they used to", but cars in many ways have gotten better, more robust and sophisticated. However are there modern cars that LEAP out at you- in defintanately destined to become classics (whatever that means!).
What post 1993 RELEASED cars do you envisage - are going to become classics and why? Or do you believe that there was a "golden era" with cars and anything after a cut off date can't be considered a classic?
These are my choices :
993 Porsches series as being furture/modern classics, mainly due to being
last of the air cooled- and incredibly well build evolution of an enduring theme
Jaguar XK series coupes, mainly for their styling, the ll new V8 engine and being an effortless GT car- where there wasn't serious opposition ( the Bimmer 850 was bargelike, the 928 was all but dead).
Lotus Elise: back to routes, innovative lightweight sports car.
I hate to be a pessimist, but I think we've just about exited a golden age of motoring.
Sure, there's always going to be enthusiasts. I think though it's a bit like railway enthusiasts. When steam was abolished, it became much more like boxes on wheels for me.
I find it interesting to consider that the end of both ages, is connected by environmentalism.
It's much more than that though, especially with cars. It's about the design being hand drawn, vs computer drawn, machine built, rather than hand built.
Computers make things cheap which is good, but they limit what can be made which isn't so good.
I think the main thing about future classics, is the electrics. Most cars are so electronic, that in future it's going to be really difficult to keep it all working properly.
Car restoration at the moment is about cutting new bits of material into the chassis, and having new mechanical components made.
In future, it's going to be about trying to figure out why the computer isn't working as it should. I'm sure that people will rise to the challenge, but there is a difference between lifting the bonnet and tracing a water leak, and plugging the computer in to try and figure out what's casing the engine to stop, when you switch the lights on.
Sure, there's always going to be enthusiasts. I think though it's a bit like railway enthusiasts. When steam was abolished, it became much more like boxes on wheels for me.
I find it interesting to consider that the end of both ages, is connected by environmentalism.
It's much more than that though, especially with cars. It's about the design being hand drawn, vs computer drawn, machine built, rather than hand built.
Computers make things cheap which is good, but they limit what can be made which isn't so good.
I think the main thing about future classics, is the electrics. Most cars are so electronic, that in future it's going to be really difficult to keep it all working properly.
Car restoration at the moment is about cutting new bits of material into the chassis, and having new mechanical components made.
In future, it's going to be about trying to figure out why the computer isn't working as it should. I'm sure that people will rise to the challenge, but there is a difference between lifting the bonnet and tracing a water leak, and plugging the computer in to try and figure out what's casing the engine to stop, when you switch the lights on.
dilbert said:
I hate to be a pessimist, but I think we've just about exited a golden age of motoring.
Sure, there's always going to be enthusiasts. I think though it's a bit like railway enthusiasts. When steam was abolished, it became much more like boxes on wheels for me.
I find it interesting to consider that the end of both ages, is connected by environmentalism.
It's much more than that though, especially with cars. It's about the design being hand drawn, vs computer drawn, machine built, rather than hand built.
Computers make things cheap which is good, but they limit what can be made which isn't so good.
I think the main thing about future classics, is the electrics. Most cars are so electronic, that in future it's going to be really difficult to keep it all working properly.
Car restoration at the moment is about cutting new bits of material into the chassis, and having new mechanical components made.
In future, it's going to be about trying to figure out why the computer isn't working as it should. I'm sure that people will rise to the challenge, but there is a difference between lifting the bonnet and tracing a water leak, and plugging the computer in to try and figure out what's casing the engine to stop, when you switch the lights on.
I agree with you alot.
I find myself more and more drawn toward older classics, up to the late seventies. In some ways I prefer the 930 Porsche Turbo to mine, because it is so very simple and robust (however I couldn't be dealing with the lag and tractor like gearchange). Electronics and be soo frustrating. Working with myriads of development ECU and issues on a daily basis, it's little wonder why on my BMW project I'm actually gravitating toward mechanical fuel injection and old style distributor and vac capsule. It may be less optimised but in years to come I know which one I'd rather trust....
Very biased of course, but the 355. Possibly one of the greatest cars ever to come out of Ferrari in so many ways.
Depends how many Mercedes make, but the CLS is something that makes me smile when I see it. Suspect they'll make too many though.
MX5. Original is a bit older than '93, but they were still making them then. Don't think the MkII was as good. Not sure on the MkIII.
Vanquish maybe. If enough hold together. Various other exotica may make it (though I'm less convinced about the very latest Lambos, oddly enough).
Agree with you on the 993.
Don't think there are many/any "normal" type cars that will rate highly in future though. Too many made, too expensive to maintain fow what they are.
Depends how many Mercedes make, but the CLS is something that makes me smile when I see it. Suspect they'll make too many though.
MX5. Original is a bit older than '93, but they were still making them then. Don't think the MkII was as good. Not sure on the MkIII.
Vanquish maybe. If enough hold together. Various other exotica may make it (though I'm less convinced about the very latest Lambos, oddly enough).
Agree with you on the 993.
Don't think there are many/any "normal" type cars that will rate highly in future though. Too many made, too expensive to maintain fow what they are.
I think any car becomes a classic when it gets old enough... I remember people saying "it'll never be a classic" of all sorts of cars on the grounds that they were boring and rather crap family saloons, while not disputing that other boring and rather crap family saloons from ten years earlier were classics. The better cars win acceptance as classics sooner, but ultimately age makes them all classics.
I agree about electronics becoming a sticking point but I'm not sure that it will be fatal. People display an irrational fear and refusal to learn when it comes to electronics, but if you get over that it doesn't really take any more intelligence to understand it than it does to understand the mechanical engineering. I think that, as with welding, people will overcome this once they have no choice. The problem is the lack of test data on, and the unrepairable construction of, electronic modules... but I think the aftermarket will reverse-engineer functionally equivalent replacements. After all, we already have pretty complex aftermarket ECUs for performance purposes.
I agree about electronics becoming a sticking point but I'm not sure that it will be fatal. People display an irrational fear and refusal to learn when it comes to electronics, but if you get over that it doesn't really take any more intelligence to understand it than it does to understand the mechanical engineering. I think that, as with welding, people will overcome this once they have no choice. The problem is the lack of test data on, and the unrepairable construction of, electronic modules... but I think the aftermarket will reverse-engineer functionally equivalent replacements. After all, we already have pretty complex aftermarket ECUs for performance purposes.
I agree to an extent.
Problem is, technology marches on at a furious rate and the platforms needed to tweak ECUs will change immeasurably in the next 20 years. To the point where you're going to have to put a lot of effort in to actually sort an ECU out.
With an Austin Princess etc, a set of spanners and screwdrivers, and some WD40 is all that's required.
Sorting out a MkV Golf in 20 years is going to be significantly more complicated and will no doubt cost significantly more to do (in resource time and equipment). As there will no doubt be many 10s of times more of these than the venerable Austin, will anyone really care?
Moreover, will anyone really care full stop? Is there really character aplenty in the Golf in comparison to its peers, or even earlier variants? Much as I'm not a Princess fan, it does have character of sorts...
I guess you could replace the ECU totally...but still, will anyone be bothered?
Taking that rationale further, which modern cars post-93 will actually warrant people lavishing time, care and attention on them...?
That said, maybe people felt the same in the 70s about the cars of that era.
Problem is, technology marches on at a furious rate and the platforms needed to tweak ECUs will change immeasurably in the next 20 years. To the point where you're going to have to put a lot of effort in to actually sort an ECU out.
With an Austin Princess etc, a set of spanners and screwdrivers, and some WD40 is all that's required.
Sorting out a MkV Golf in 20 years is going to be significantly more complicated and will no doubt cost significantly more to do (in resource time and equipment). As there will no doubt be many 10s of times more of these than the venerable Austin, will anyone really care?
Moreover, will anyone really care full stop? Is there really character aplenty in the Golf in comparison to its peers, or even earlier variants? Much as I'm not a Princess fan, it does have character of sorts...
I guess you could replace the ECU totally...but still, will anyone be bothered?
Taking that rationale further, which modern cars post-93 will actually warrant people lavishing time, care and attention on them...?
That said, maybe people felt the same in the 70s about the cars of that era.
Replacing the ECU totally is the sort of thing I'm talking about. I'm thinking that people will start making "universal" ECUs and supplying them with a map and wiring loom adaptor to suit different cars. Since the technology of microcontrollers is advancing but the technology of individual cars remains frozen in time, this will only become easier to do. And fitting the replacement will simply be a matter of unplugging the old one and plugging in the new one, so it's a lot easier than getting hardened valve seats fitted to your cylinder head so you can run on unleaded.
Will people bother? I'm sure they will... all cars make the transition from new model to cheap unregarded old banger and then if they survive begin to climb back up again. There is an ever-renewed supply of people whose personal definition of "classic" is "cars you grew up with" to have a particular interest in cars of any recent period.
Will people bother? I'm sure they will... all cars make the transition from new model to cheap unregarded old banger and then if they survive begin to climb back up again. There is an ever-renewed supply of people whose personal definition of "classic" is "cars you grew up with" to have a particular interest in cars of any recent period.
I'm not sure it'll be that easy.
It's a bugger to do. Revised looms, all sorts of odd connectors, sensors etc. When you start doing something like this (had it done on my 7) you end up spending way, waaaaaay more than you would expect. And the job is nowhere near as straightforward as you would imagine it ought to be.
Plus, mapping's a pain in the arse, which would only get more of a pain the older the engines get.
And then you get into more and more complicated systems (traction control of all flavours, diff control, gearbox control, rear steer control blah blah).
Hardened valve seats is easy by comparison.
Know where you're coming from though. I guess we'll see
It's a bugger to do. Revised looms, all sorts of odd connectors, sensors etc. When you start doing something like this (had it done on my 7) you end up spending way, waaaaaay more than you would expect. And the job is nowhere near as straightforward as you would imagine it ought to be.
Plus, mapping's a pain in the arse, which would only get more of a pain the older the engines get.
And then you get into more and more complicated systems (traction control of all flavours, diff control, gearbox control, rear steer control blah blah).
Hardened valve seats is easy by comparison.
Know where you're coming from though. I guess we'll see
Great thread.
As a lad, I thought Escort Mk11s were the biz, and I saw the odd TVR Taimar. Infact, thrilling cars were few and far between. Lots of bikes about though - Brits, of course. But the first time I saw a that Honda CBX. Well... Common motors to ogle at around our way then were Capris and the occasional Roller passing through. Then I got a weekly job, cleaning a P5V8. Loved it when Mr T, the owner, hadn't got it out the garage in time when I arrived, cos I got to hear the burble.
Now if I were eighteen and had the chance to buy an Escort Mk11 or a Marina, or any brit or other rear wheel drive car that can be maintained whilst learning about motors, with reasonable insurane, I'd like to think I'd be right up for it. My lads were eighteen last week. They scoff at the very thought ... They want lease purchase and reliability NOW, not in ten years. Cnat be swayed. Yet.
Vera, my P6, has laid up ( SORN'd, mind you ) for a year now. And I cant part with her. Reading these posts just makes me even more determined to Start The Job. Took Bluey out today and flew down the by pass, within legal limits, but with elan where it mattered. That torque, that sound.
Just left 'Reach for the Sky' at the end of Battle of Britain (BBC4). Lots of Spits & Hurricanes around in 56 to film with, but cost meant they still had to use old clips - like, 14 yr old ones max, mind - and superimposed ones to get the feel. But what sounds. What people ... Real Heroes of Yesterday.
>> Edited by shadowfax on Tuesday 16th August 00:09
As a lad, I thought Escort Mk11s were the biz, and I saw the odd TVR Taimar. Infact, thrilling cars were few and far between. Lots of bikes about though - Brits, of course. But the first time I saw a that Honda CBX. Well... Common motors to ogle at around our way then were Capris and the occasional Roller passing through. Then I got a weekly job, cleaning a P5V8. Loved it when Mr T, the owner, hadn't got it out the garage in time when I arrived, cos I got to hear the burble.
Now if I were eighteen and had the chance to buy an Escort Mk11 or a Marina, or any brit or other rear wheel drive car that can be maintained whilst learning about motors, with reasonable insurane, I'd like to think I'd be right up for it. My lads were eighteen last week. They scoff at the very thought ... They want lease purchase and reliability NOW, not in ten years. Cnat be swayed. Yet.
Vera, my P6, has laid up ( SORN'd, mind you ) for a year now. And I cant part with her. Reading these posts just makes me even more determined to Start The Job. Took Bluey out today and flew down the by pass, within legal limits, but with elan where it mattered. That torque, that sound.
Just left 'Reach for the Sky' at the end of Battle of Britain (BBC4). Lots of Spits & Hurricanes around in 56 to film with, but cost meant they still had to use old clips - like, 14 yr old ones max, mind - and superimposed ones to get the feel. But what sounds. What people ... Real Heroes of Yesterday.
>> Edited by shadowfax on Tuesday 16th August 00:09
Murph7355 said:
....Sorting out a MkV Golf in 20 years is going to be significantly more complicated and will no doubt cost significantly more to do (in resource time and equipment). As there will no doubt be many 10s of times more of these than the venerable Austin, will anyone really care?
Moreover, will anyone really care full stop? Is there really character aplenty in the Golf in comparison to its peers, or even earlier variants? Much as I'm not a Princess fan, it does have character of sorts...
........
Taking that rationale further, which modern cars post-93 will actually warrant people lavishing time, care and attention on them...?
That said, maybe people felt the same in the 70s about the cars of that era.
These are interesting questions.
I totally hear what is being said about modern electronics and the complexity of cars, but I think alot of people get a "warm fuzzy" feeling about cars they grew up around. As ludicrous as it may seem to us, folk may spends loads restoring Mk 4 VW Golfs!I distinctly rememeber in the late eighties when any car with fuel injection was deemed too complicated to work on relative to one with Carbs. Now K Jetronic is one of the simplest systems around, siompler than carbs in many ways, so it was fear of the unknown.
It's a tough one, because, on the otyher hand, I still love seeing and hearing about cars BEFORE my time, such as Rover P6s and P5s. I love cars like those because of their individuality and ambience and in this case it doesn't have to do with seeing them around when I was younger....
If it's expensive (993, 355, XK9, TVR, Clio V6 etc etc) it will be a classic.
The question is far far more difficult for the 'everyday' cars.
Using Renault for this example: I'd suggest a Clio williams and 182. Then there may be the 'odd-balls' such as a Kangoo may (but probably not) get a 2CV type following.
You can do this with any marque but only time will prove the theory.
The question is far far more difficult for the 'everyday' cars.
Using Renault for this example: I'd suggest a Clio williams and 182. Then there may be the 'odd-balls' such as a Kangoo may (but probably not) get a 2CV type following.
You can do this with any marque but only time will prove the theory.
shadowfax said:
Great thread.
Just left 'Reach for the Sky' at the end of Battle of Britain (BBC4). Lots of Spits & Hurricanes around in 56 to film with, but cost meant they still had to use old clips - like, 14 yr old ones max, mind - and superimposed ones to get the feel. But what sounds.
>> Edited by shadowfax on Tuesday 16th August 00:09
Actually going into pendant mode.....
You might be surprised to know there are more Spitfires and Hurricanes around and flying today in 2005 than there was when, either, Reach For The Sky was filmed in 1955/6, or when the Battle of Britain was filmed in 1968.
As for modern cars (post 1993) becoming classics of tomorrow, well of course there will be many, and not just the hugely expensive exotica.
Limited production runs will probably guarrentee future classic status, as will homologation specials, such as the Scooby P1 and 22B, Tommy Mak EVO, Focus RS, Integrale EVO etc.
I agree that the TVR Griffith is a likely candidate, also Saab Viggen, early Volvo T5R and stuff like that.
A prime candidate, due to recent events will be any of those V8 engined MG ZT/Rover 75's as they had not long gone into production before Rover shut down.
Indeed the post '85 cars get electric stuff that'll get hard to replace / work on when obsolete / broken down etc.
A classic has to run easy doesn't it? You have to work on it yourself or you might as well buy a Rari . . . That's why popular classics are the ones that don't have the airbags and ABS systems . . . 1985 computer anyone? 124 spiders / MGBs / Mini's / DSs / various Volvo's still run around because a quick lay under 'em does the trick. Tools in the back and you carry your 5k service with you. Not so in a car with a 512k memory somewhere . . . What cable did you say?
A classic has to run easy doesn't it? You have to work on it yourself or you might as well buy a Rari . . . That's why popular classics are the ones that don't have the airbags and ABS systems . . . 1985 computer anyone? 124 spiders / MGBs / Mini's / DSs / various Volvo's still run around because a quick lay under 'em does the trick. Tools in the back and you carry your 5k service with you. Not so in a car with a 512k memory somewhere . . . What cable did you say?
shadowfax said:
aeropilot said:
You might be surprised to know there are more Spitfires and Hurricanes around and flying today in 2005 than there was when, either, Reach For The Sky was filmed in 1955/6, or when the Battle of Britain was filmed in 1968.
How come?
When Reach For the Sky was filmed in '55/56, there was only 2 Hurricanes still flying, one with the fledgling BBMF and one owned by Hawkers themselves. There was probably fewer than a dozen Spits still flying around the world, about half of those again with the RAF in the UK. Most WW2 aircraft had long been massed scrapped or stuffed into a museum and forgotten about, there weren't worth anything afterall
Ten years later when the film company wanted to gather together enough aircraft to film the Battle of Britain, it was no different, although there was by this time a third Hurricane that was airworthy in private hands and the film company paid for the return to airworthyness of a number of Spitfires that were Gate Guards on RAF bases or in Museums. In all 3 flying Hurricanes and about a dozen flying Spits were used to film the Battle of Britain.
This subsequent return to flight of a good number of WW2 aircraft effectively kick started the now huge interest in restoring and flying of WW2 aircraft that there is today and there is huge costs involved. A Spit today is worth £500k just as a rusty wrecked pile of bits, and it'll cost you £1.5m to get it back in the air
Many aircraft that were in museum collections, old aircraft dumps and scarpyards, and crash site in now accessible places such as Russia have now surfaced and been rebuilt.
As a consequence, worldwide, there are now about 50 Spitfires flying and there are 12 Hurricanes flying.
>> Edited by aeropilot on Saturday 27th August 17:52
The next issue of Classic Cars has a feature on just this apparently (noticed it in the back of this month's).
A few cars mentioned:
Lotus Elise
Honda S2000
Aston DB7
Fiat Coupe
Think all are fair shouts. Though I've never thought of the DB7 as a truly great Aston (Ferrari can get away with blagging Fiat rear lights, but Aston using a Mazda 323F's is unforgivable to me).
A few cars mentioned:
Lotus Elise
Honda S2000
Aston DB7
Fiat Coupe
Think all are fair shouts. Though I've never thought of the DB7 as a truly great Aston (Ferrari can get away with blagging Fiat rear lights, but Aston using a Mazda 323F's is unforgivable to me).
Murph7355 said:
. . . but Aston using a Mazda 323F's is unforgivable to me).
It's getting worse . . .
dinkel said:
Indeed the post '85 cars get electric stuff that'll get hard to replace.
Personally I prefer pre-ecu cars, but in a few years time there will be a new 'cottage industry' involving electronics for 'ecu' cars. The new box will be smaller than the original and be useable on most cars.
You can by a managment system from emerald (amongst others) and it'll soon be able to function with other integrated systems (assuming it doesn't already).
I agree that the MX5 is a superb little car and will eventually acheive classic status.
Unfortunately, like the MGB, it's a victim of its own success. There have been so many of them sold that I'm afraid it's due a long spell as an unloved 'old banger' beforethey are suffiently rare that values will start climbing again, appreciably.
Unfortunately, like the MGB, it's a victim of its own success. There have been so many of them sold that I'm afraid it's due a long spell as an unloved 'old banger' beforethey are suffiently rare that values will start climbing again, appreciably.
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