The scale of "rip offs"...
Discussion
During my restoration I placed my car with a "wrong un" and lost the best part of £30K
to my eternal regret I caught sight - while in his office, of another guy who had sent an e mail but failed to copy his contact details down. I understand 2 other persons were/are in dispute with my - now ex restorer - and one's "given him a slap" the other is pursuing him via the Courts.
I telephoned the relevant Trading Standards Office and heard nothing back - the guy is happily advertising his services today on eBay etc
I bumped into a guy a couple of years back waiting in a reception, 2 mins later we were discussing classic cars/restorations and he relates his tale of woe re his Yank where the restorer made off with £15K in spurious costs etc
My accountant has a similar episode running with his Sunbeam Alpine and Mk11 Jaguar, no sign of a completion and no program on costs etc, it simply unravels...
Thats just me, with guys I know, is it really a VAST problem or isolated?
Given my solicitor wanted £1000 up front you need big balls to progress stuff legally, and maybe the dodgy ones out there know that?
My feeling is for every 10 restorations there's 1 that's a dud?
to my eternal regret I caught sight - while in his office, of another guy who had sent an e mail but failed to copy his contact details down. I understand 2 other persons were/are in dispute with my - now ex restorer - and one's "given him a slap" the other is pursuing him via the Courts.
I telephoned the relevant Trading Standards Office and heard nothing back - the guy is happily advertising his services today on eBay etc
I bumped into a guy a couple of years back waiting in a reception, 2 mins later we were discussing classic cars/restorations and he relates his tale of woe re his Yank where the restorer made off with £15K in spurious costs etc
My accountant has a similar episode running with his Sunbeam Alpine and Mk11 Jaguar, no sign of a completion and no program on costs etc, it simply unravels...
Thats just me, with guys I know, is it really a VAST problem or isolated?
Given my solicitor wanted £1000 up front you need big balls to progress stuff legally, and maybe the dodgy ones out there know that?
My feeling is for every 10 restorations there's 1 that's a dud?
I think it probably works both ways.
Imagine how many people take their car into a restorers or body shop for "a bit of a tidy". They end up stripping a car to reveal hours, days, weeks of fabrication and welding. I'm in the process of doing a bit of a resto on an old porsche. I ended up doing it myself for this reason. I didn't want to get a phone call where I'm possibly already a few grand deep, to be told there's another 5k of work required. I mean what happens in those situations? You either accept you're going to throw more than the value of the car Into it, which not many people are happy with. Or you pay a big bill to get a car in bits back.
I'm not talking about high end restos where people know they could be 100k deep at the end. But that's a small part of the industry. Most classic car owners I know have a tight and restrictive budget to keep their cars going.
But yes to answer your question, the exact scenario I speak of will produce wrong 'uns in any industry.
Imagine how many people take their car into a restorers or body shop for "a bit of a tidy". They end up stripping a car to reveal hours, days, weeks of fabrication and welding. I'm in the process of doing a bit of a resto on an old porsche. I ended up doing it myself for this reason. I didn't want to get a phone call where I'm possibly already a few grand deep, to be told there's another 5k of work required. I mean what happens in those situations? You either accept you're going to throw more than the value of the car Into it, which not many people are happy with. Or you pay a big bill to get a car in bits back.
I'm not talking about high end restos where people know they could be 100k deep at the end. But that's a small part of the industry. Most classic car owners I know have a tight and restrictive budget to keep their cars going.
But yes to answer your question, the exact scenario I speak of will produce wrong 'uns in any industry.
The big issue is finding the extra problems as said above, its easy to consider doing an extra 100 hours of your own time but when you are paying someone £50+ per hour it really mounts up very quickly.
There are times when you have to call it a day when its going to cost double what its worth and just sell what's left as spares or to some other hopeful!
There have been so many 'projects' sold at vast cost in the last 2 years that will never get the money back and some 'investors' might loose their shirts.
There are times when you have to call it a day when its going to cost double what its worth and just sell what's left as spares or to some other hopeful!
There have been so many 'projects' sold at vast cost in the last 2 years that will never get the money back and some 'investors' might loose their shirts.
Although it is more than 30 years since I left Lynx Engineering I suspect the situation has not changed very much. I remember very well that there were a good number of conversations with potential customers where we did not get a restoration job because we could not, would not, quote an accurate cost for the work because, as we all know, there may be any number of horrors hidden only to appear once the work had started. On a number of occasions those cars came back to us maybe a couple of years later, very often untouched or robbed of parts, with the owner embroiled in legal action with the restorer to whom he did eventually take it.
Whilst there always have been a number of rogue restorers I think the biggest fundamental problem is honest communication, or lack of it. It takes courage to tell the owner the awful truth about just how bad his prized object is knowing he may then walk away offended but honesty is essential if the relationship between the two parties is to work productively.
It is also a fact that many owners are magnetically attracted by the lowest quote despite expecting the best quality job. Common sense should tell you that this approach is unlikely to end well. Some owners know just how bad their cars are and hope the restorer will not see the problem but will fix it without charge having given an estimate to cover a full restoration. Some restorers will shy away from telling it as it is because they fear the customer will walk if they do and they need the job. Dishonesty + unprofessionalism = disaster!
If you are intending to have a car restored the best advice I can give is to research thoroughly those restorers who specialise in your particular vehicle, owners clubs are always full of people who will love talking about their experiences. Walk away from any restorer where you find questionable work or questionable behaviour. Ask to see around your chosen restorer's operation, most are more than happy to show off their skills. Recognise that costs can very easily escalate and have a reserve in hand to cover that eventuality. Ask your chosen restorer to be brutally honest with you and in turn be equally open with him as to your expectations. Be realistic and be patient and hopefully you will have a good outcome.
Whilst there always have been a number of rogue restorers I think the biggest fundamental problem is honest communication, or lack of it. It takes courage to tell the owner the awful truth about just how bad his prized object is knowing he may then walk away offended but honesty is essential if the relationship between the two parties is to work productively.
It is also a fact that many owners are magnetically attracted by the lowest quote despite expecting the best quality job. Common sense should tell you that this approach is unlikely to end well. Some owners know just how bad their cars are and hope the restorer will not see the problem but will fix it without charge having given an estimate to cover a full restoration. Some restorers will shy away from telling it as it is because they fear the customer will walk if they do and they need the job. Dishonesty + unprofessionalism = disaster!
If you are intending to have a car restored the best advice I can give is to research thoroughly those restorers who specialise in your particular vehicle, owners clubs are always full of people who will love talking about their experiences. Walk away from any restorer where you find questionable work or questionable behaviour. Ask to see around your chosen restorer's operation, most are more than happy to show off their skills. Recognise that costs can very easily escalate and have a reserve in hand to cover that eventuality. Ask your chosen restorer to be brutally honest with you and in turn be equally open with him as to your expectations. Be realistic and be patient and hopefully you will have a good outcome.
Edited by Mike-tf3n0 on Tuesday 6th September 15:39
I think others have already stated the flip side of the coin.
I try to limit the extent of each 'repair' and complete a running restoration. Doing the bits I can do myself and then get someone involved where it is beyond my skill set (welding or engine out work usually). Handing over a 'basket case' and expecting the costs not to be astronomical is a little naive.
Even when limiting the extent of a repair, I still get a nasty shock every now and again. But it is usually £100's not £1,000's. I still spend too much though......
Communication is also key....I like the classic guy I use, but he does go 'off-piste' sometimes without checking with me first. Why fit a £300 starter motor when an £80 one would do, for example......
I try to limit the extent of each 'repair' and complete a running restoration. Doing the bits I can do myself and then get someone involved where it is beyond my skill set (welding or engine out work usually). Handing over a 'basket case' and expecting the costs not to be astronomical is a little naive.
Even when limiting the extent of a repair, I still get a nasty shock every now and again. But it is usually £100's not £1,000's. I still spend too much though......
Communication is also key....I like the classic guy I use, but he does go 'off-piste' sometimes without checking with me first. Why fit a £300 starter motor when an £80 one would do, for example......
mike9009 said:
I think others have already stated the flip side of the coin.
I try to limit the extent of each 'repair' and complete a running restoration. Doing the bits I can do myself and then get someone involved where it is beyond my skill set (welding or engine out work usually). Handing over a 'basket case' and expecting the costs not to be astronomical is a little naive.
Even when limiting the extent of a repair, I still get a nasty shock every now and again. But it is usually £100's not £1,000's. I still spend too much though......
Communication is also key....I like the classic guy I use, but he does go 'off-piste' sometimes without checking with me first. Why fit a £300 starter motor when an £80 one would do, for example......
I'm looking at having a car restored. I think I know what needs doing but I don't have the time, the skills or the trade connections to carry out the work effectively or efficiently myself. I can tell the restorer what jobs need doing but I can't tell him how to do his job. He can tell me how much it should cost for him to do his job though. There's obviously got to be some leeway for unforseen items as, like with any restoration or in-depth repair, it's never easy to see what lies underneath the surface of things, before starting.I try to limit the extent of each 'repair' and complete a running restoration. Doing the bits I can do myself and then get someone involved where it is beyond my skill set (welding or engine out work usually). Handing over a 'basket case' and expecting the costs not to be astronomical is a little naive.
Even when limiting the extent of a repair, I still get a nasty shock every now and again. But it is usually £100's not £1,000's. I still spend too much though......
Communication is also key....I like the classic guy I use, but he does go 'off-piste' sometimes without checking with me first. Why fit a £300 starter motor when an £80 one would do, for example......
I'd start out listing the things I know need putting right and I'd get figures for those areas. I'd make sure the restorer knows what I want doing and what I don't want doing and that we both understand how things are to proceed. I wouldn't want to fall into a smoke and mirrors situation so the more the restorer and I can establish before going ahead the better. I'd also build in a sizeable contingency as there's no point budgeting only for the items I think need doing and then being unable to get the thing finished for the sake of the valid things I just didn't see.
mike9009 said:
Communication is also key....I like the classic guy I use, but he does go 'off-piste' sometimes without checking with me first. Why fit a £300 starter motor when an £80 one would do, for example......
I would imagine because as he has supplied the part he will be liable for any warranty and doesn't want to do the job again for free by fitting some cheap parts.https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2022-0...
£200k restoration = £15k valued car. See the inspection report.
£200k restoration = £15k valued car. See the inspection report.
Certainly does. I would love to know who did that work. This underlines the importance of regular visits during the two years of work so that you can see what is being done and how it is being done. Another safeguard is to pay for the work in stages, no reputable restorer will object to that.
My experience has been one of those cliches - good, fast, cheap. Pick two.
I'm currently embroiled in the (relatively) cheap and good battle, and the trade off is that whilst dealing with someone with acres of technical expertise, they have little project or people management skills which results in extensive unnecessary delays.
I'm currently embroiled in the (relatively) cheap and good battle, and the trade off is that whilst dealing with someone with acres of technical expertise, they have little project or people management skills which results in extensive unnecessary delays.
Mike-tf3n0 said:
I think the biggest fundamental problem is honest communication, or lack of it. It takes courage to tell the owner the awful truth about just how bad his prized object is knowing he may then walk away offended but honesty is essential if the relationship between the two parties is to work productively.
I also think this is probably the biggest - but not only - problem. Poor communication lets small problems grow into big ones and continues relationships when it would be best to end them.The problem with restoration is you don't know how much work is required until the car starts being stripped down.
Recently had work done on my car, rust repairs to door bottoms and replacement tailgate, doors came off which revealed rust in the A post, this lead to work needed to the bulkhead and elsewhere. No one knew this as the start.
The important thing is using someone recommended, knowing they have an interest and knowledge in the car they are working on and having a good relationship with them. I was calling in every week to see progress, talk it through with them and we both knew what would happen next. I spent a lot more money than I planned but I am very happy with the work carried out and know the car is solid and properly repaired.
Recently had work done on my car, rust repairs to door bottoms and replacement tailgate, doors came off which revealed rust in the A post, this lead to work needed to the bulkhead and elsewhere. No one knew this as the start.
The important thing is using someone recommended, knowing they have an interest and knowledge in the car they are working on and having a good relationship with them. I was calling in every week to see progress, talk it through with them and we both knew what would happen next. I spent a lot more money than I planned but I am very happy with the work carried out and know the car is solid and properly repaired.
SFTWend said:
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2022-0...
£200k restoration = £15k valued car. See the inspection report.
Wow!£200k restoration = £15k valued car. See the inspection report.
Amazing to see that report alongside the auctioneer's description. Must be hoping that no one reads the report...
dxg said:
SFTWend said:
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2022-0...
£200k restoration = £15k valued car. See the inspection report.
Wow!£200k restoration = £15k valued car. See the inspection report.
Amazing to see that report alongside the auctioneer's description. Must be hoping that no one reads the report...
Does anybody know the outcome of the dispute with the restoresrs?
dxg said:
SFTWend said:
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2022-0...
£200k restoration = £15k valued car. See the inspection report.
Wow!£200k restoration = £15k valued car. See the inspection report.
Amazing to see that report alongside the auctioneer's description. Must be hoping that no one reads the report...
dxg said:
SFTWend said:
https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2022-0...
£200k restoration = £15k valued car. See the inspection report.
Wow!£200k restoration = £15k valued car. See the inspection report.
Amazing to see that report alongside the auctioneer's description. Must be hoping that no one reads the report...
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