CSL

[Marquis_Rex]

Naaah, I'm talking about the original PROPER CSL!


[I hope this picture posts]

I just LOVE them!

I think these beasts look so raw. You can keep your modern- tame looking flame grilled bangled surfaces and 'I' drives. If a design is inherently "right" I don't need Bangle or Callum explaining how it's form is heavy but is dynamic blah blah and I don't think a good styled car should have to GROW on you either. I've always fancied owning one. I wanted to fit a 3.8 litre S38 M5 straight six in one (it's a relatively straight forward fit), but I guess that would be losing alot of its original appeal. Also not sure of how rigid the original shell is, it looks too elegant to look robust!
In the long term I could sell my Red 323i and perhaps stretch to one of these.....
My biggest problem would be whether to retain the original D Jetronic injection system which is reputedly not the best and well known to run rich with engine wear. But if I'm going to get a later engine- why not fit a 3.5 litre motronic lump from a seven series...but then...why not a 3.8 litre 24 valve M5 motor? Oh dear..*L*

[v15ben]

[lazyitus]

oh

[Marquis_Rex]

Some more brutal racing beauties;


[pic]www.bmwinfo.com/pictures/00318.jpg|www.bmwinfo.com/pictures/00318.jpg[/pic]


[pic]www.bmwinfo.com/pictures/00320.jpg|www.bmwinfo.com/pictures/00320.jpg[/pic]

>> Edited by Marquis_Rex to say I can't get the pictures up on this- I really am an amateur on this- HELP! on Friday 26th November 20:37

>> Edited by Marquis_Rex on Friday 26th November 20:38

[Pigeon]

Marquis_Rex said:

Yes. Proper BMWs...

[williamp]

Well I must admit I'm dissappointed with all of you. Where is the famous shot of Hans Stuck, bonkers sideways, yomping at the Nurburgring??

I have no idea where I can fidn this picture, but (to me) it says all I need to know about the car


A true great. In fact, I'd love a "normal" 3.0 car...

[IOLAIRE]

Marquis_Rex said:

Naaah, I'm talking about the original PROPER CSL! I wanted to fit a 3.8 litre S38 M5 straight six in one (it's a relatively straight forward fit), but I guess that would be losing alot of its original appeal. Also not sure of how rigid the original shell is, it looks too elegant to look robust! In the long term I could sell my Red 323i and perhaps stretch to one of these..... My biggest problem would be whether to retain the original D Jetronic injection system which is reputedly not the best and well known to run rich with engine wear. But if I'm going to get a later engine- why not fit a 3.5 litre motronic lump from a seven series...but then...why not a 3.8 litre 24 valve M5 motor? Oh dear..*L*

Well Rex,
you demonstrate impeccable taste in your BMWs.
In the early seventies I drove nothing else, and they were quite simply wonderful, but I have to admit, quite flawed in certain respects.
The biggest single problem is rust, with a vengeance, and much more so than in any other BMW.
The reason for this is that Karmahn built the body shells, not BMW, and they were built on 3 litre saloon panels, but they did it in the most obtuse manner.
For example, the original inner front wings were retained which had a raised lip to bolt on the outer wing; on the coupe they simply overlapped the edge of the outer wing over the edge of the inner wing and welded a fillet between them creating a monstrous water and mud trap which rotted through very quickly.
When I used to restore these cars, we engineered out this fault, and modified the method of joining the wings to the inner panels to remove the trap and make the front end stiffer.
So you must, must get a rust free one or spend a lot of money getting it right.
The D Jetronic system was Boschs worst and most troublesome of the systems.
Every component had to be functioning perfectly and set up very precisely to ensure proper running.
It was incredibly over sensitive to temperature variations which made the car hunt quite badly at times and consume fuel too readily.
Forget about the 3.8 motor, it's too different and would be a nightmare to physically fit in the engine bay; the 3.1 litre is a neat fit as it is.
The original engine is an absolutely beautiful unit and can be persuaded to yield around 240 BHP very smoothly and reliably with some gas flowing, a decent cam and exhaust, and an injection system change.
If however you want loads of torque, the engine to go for is the M535 OR M635; NOT the 24 valve mind, but the 12 valve. This will go straight in complete with 5 speed Getrag or ZF box. (The original box is a four speed).
The beauty of this is that the injection system, complete with loom can be wired in easily to the coupe, as it is a separate loom and not integrated into the rest of the car's wiring. You are then running a vehicle with a Motronic system which will greatly enhance your economy and emissions and is very easy to set up and repair, is designed to run on unleaded and all spare parts are easily obtainable.
I had one of these with a mildly tweaked cam and ZF close ratio 'box from a 535 Motorsport and it was seriously quick, I mean you came out of it trembling!!
If you modify the suspension with either Koni or Bilstein sport shocks and a nice set of wheels, the best I found were 16inch Alpina multispokes, then you have a car that is tremendous to drive and sounds just beautiful.
Best of luck, and if you want any more help give me a shout and I'll dig deep into the memory banks.

[Pigeon]

IOLAIRE said:

The D Jetronic system was Boschs worst and most troublesome of the systems. Every component had to be functioning perfectly and set up very precisely to ensure proper running. It was incredibly over sensitive to temperature variations which made the car hunt quite badly at times and consume fuel too readily.

Marquis and I have been chatting about this in the "Which Mercedes?" thread - he's got some interesting ideas on what else to fit. I must say that I was most impressed with this system when I transplanted a Volvo 1800E engine into my Amazon - only problem I had was cleaning out petrol gum when I first got it, as the previous owner had stored it in "as-it-came-off-the-car" condition - it was reliable, well made and gave impressive fuel economy. However, the ambient air temperature sensor was missing when I got it, so I replaced it with a fixed resistor set to a suitable mid-range value, and since summer or winter temperatures seemed to make no difference I left it like that. Perhaps, given your experiences, this sensor was the fly in the ointment?

[Marquis_Rex]

Thanks alot IOLAIRE and your comments and compliments most useful.

I know the 3.8 litre S38 has been done, but you're right I'd feel "guilty" doing this to such a fine classic machine.
I haven't started looking yet seriously, as I'm in the process of moving to a new place, but the money I have saved on the house should secure a nice Bavarian Munich legend later on.
Because I will want to use the car a bit- I think I'll look into fitting a later M30 single cam motronic engine (preferably with the higher compression ratio) and to that I'll also fit a 5 speed G-265 box. I may need to get a tailor made shorter prop.
I'll keep the original engine and box of course for originality and hope this all doesn't dent the secondhand value too much.
I don't want the car to be 'too fast'- I've learned that lesson with my Porsche 993TT, it's just SILLY for the roads- it's too fast to enjoy and pootle along reveling in the engine singing....

According to my resserch a later (post early 80s) M30 3.5 litre engine had a smaller bore and a different cylinder head gasket to get away from some porosity problems- So I'm sure i'll be able to pick up one of these easily. If the engine needs breating upon, I know alot of my M20 6 cylinder porting techniques will carry over onto the big six. May be I'll look into either a schrick cam or one of my own design.(I've played about with these designs on an E12 M535i).

The bodywork and rust is a major worry, you're right. I've heard all about Karmen on the early 6 series too.
I'm wondering just how much I MYSELF can put off by stripping out wheel arch liners- cleaning and blasting out mud and debris, wax oyling and undersealing...

[tim_930]

I'm a very infrequent poster here, but probably one of the few people here who have owned a CSL. I sold mine in April to buy the 911 turbo. Loads of fun, but a bit fragile and hard to get spares for.

If you buy one look out for rust and bodged repairs - the upside was I made money on mine and they are appreciating.....

A friend is selling his CSL and his CSI on the BMW owners club website now.

I still look at them longily and want another one, but would find it hard to justify alongside the 911.

Tim

[Marquis_Rex]

Tim, I LOVE the 930 Turbo, and was at one time considering getting one to replace my then aging 928 S4.

They're an indestructable car, very "old school-brute force" to my mind.
In the end-coming from the 928 S4 I couldn't be dealing with the lag and 4 speed box/change.
I briefly thought about a 5 speed LE.
Finally I saved and got a 993 TT, which I love, but in some ways, I miss the fact it doesn't have simple K Jetronic fuel injection ( a system I know really well and have all the diagnostic pressure kit for) and am also in fear that all the complex OBD lambda stuff will go wrong one day- you see I'm not fickle but tend to keep my cars for the long haul....
There's something very rugged and agressive about the CSL and older shark nosed BMWs in general that modern cars simply don't have. Even Porsches don't have it. American muscle has it in an uncouth way (without any of the engineering finnesse). And I also love the idea that people who see me in a CSL can pretty much only think I'm an enthusiast- and not some poseur/show off- which isn't neccassarily the case with my 993TT.

[Coco H]

I found a bog standard road one in a garage once - it had rotted badly

[tim_930]

Rex,

I lust after a 993TT, but it's out of my price league.... The nicest, most sorted CSL I have been in was a red one that Munich Legends have sold a couple of times that had a tuned M535 engine with a dog leg 5 speed box in it. It was in a different class to mine and went like a rocket.

The CSL was probably the only car I have owned that people would stop and stare at - it could quite literally stop traffic! The only problem was I never used it as it was so noisy and was more a track car than a road car. They have no sound proofing and mine had the proper Bilstein suspension with 16" Alpina wheels which made it a very hard ride. the 930 is the complete opposite - it seems luxurious compareed to the CSL but goes like a train!

If you do get a CSL, buy a properly restored one otherwise they are a complete money pit!

Tim

[tuscan30]

F.A.O. Willieamp, who said -
"Well I must admit I'm dissappointed with all of you. Where is the famous shot of Hans Stuck, bonkers sideways, yomping at the Nurburgring??

I have no idea where I can fidn this picture, but (to me) it says all I need to know about the car"

I remember that photo, Google came up with this -

www.bmwcsregistry.org/photographs/racecars/index.html

[Paul T]

Another infrequent poster, had to reply to this, as a youth playing club rugby had a nutty garage owning team mate who just loved CSL's (he had
been through several) he bought a second hand silver one which I travelled in to an away match we played the game (UEA if I remember correctly) started driving home after the customary drinking session,no PC then!! he stopped the car gave me the keys and said drop him off at home and bring the car to the garage on monday eve! I had a great time with the car and drove virtually all night and sunday. Duly delivered the car on Monday, after school as I was only 18 at the time doing A levels!!

Vowed to get my own CSL which I did at the grand old age of 23, sold it on the day of my wedding! to a dealer from the USA who shipped the car to LA.

[williamp]

tuscan30 said:

F.A.O. Willieamp, who said - "Well I must admit I'm dissappointed with all of you. Where is the famous shot of Hans Stuck, bonkers sideways, yomping at the Nurburgring?? I have no idea where I can fidn this picture, but (to me) it says all I need to know about the car" I remember that photo, Google came up with this - www.bmwcsregistry.org/photographs/racecars/index.html

Ahhhhh, that's the chap!!!

many thanks, great photos