Proof of ownership - Barn Find
Discussion
There are plenty of discussions about the V5 not being proof of ownership and most of those threads state that the receipt you get when you buy the car is the real legal document.
This seems all well and good if you're buying a new car, or even a second and one, but what happens if you want to buy a "barn find" that isn't actually in a barn and it's not evident who the owner is?
Take a hypothetical situation. You find a classic rotting in a field. There is a barn in the corner of the field so you go over and speak to a few people in the barn. One of them claims to own the car and is happy to see it go to a loving home who wants to restore it. There are no keys and no paperwork as the car hasn't been driven in 20+years and these things get lost along the way. You have no reason to doubt the person you have been speaking to is the owner, but if there is no documentation whatsoever, would a receipt from them be legal right to ownership of the car?
For a wreck it may not matter, but if you spent the next 5+ years restoring the car and then someone who wasn't the person who wrote you the receipt claims to be the owner you could be in a very nasty situation.
It's highly unlikely I know, but it just got me thinking....
I also assume that most barn finds wont be on the DVLA's radar. Would they contact the last known owner when it is re-registered?
Thanks
This seems all well and good if you're buying a new car, or even a second and one, but what happens if you want to buy a "barn find" that isn't actually in a barn and it's not evident who the owner is?
Take a hypothetical situation. You find a classic rotting in a field. There is a barn in the corner of the field so you go over and speak to a few people in the barn. One of them claims to own the car and is happy to see it go to a loving home who wants to restore it. There are no keys and no paperwork as the car hasn't been driven in 20+years and these things get lost along the way. You have no reason to doubt the person you have been speaking to is the owner, but if there is no documentation whatsoever, would a receipt from them be legal right to ownership of the car?
For a wreck it may not matter, but if you spent the next 5+ years restoring the car and then someone who wasn't the person who wrote you the receipt claims to be the owner you could be in a very nasty situation.
It's highly unlikely I know, but it just got me thinking....
I also assume that most barn finds wont be on the DVLA's radar. Would they contact the last known owner when it is re-registered?
Thanks
There is the "due diligence" to confirm all the facts about a sale, or any other contract. Asking locals is one way, but they, as you inply, may just be looking for a few quid with no ownership rights at all. Another would be to find out who owns the field where the wreck is, and to contact DVLA for the last registered owner and ask them about the car. Even if both these led nowhere, you have demonstrated your wish to do the right thing, and buy the car from the legal owner.
I (not a lawyer!) think that would protect you if someone came along later and claimed ownership. If the car were a rare and valuable one, once restored at great cost, you could take out insurance against that event.
John
I (not a lawyer!) think that would protect you if someone came along later and claimed ownership. If the car were a rare and valuable one, once restored at great cost, you could take out insurance against that event.
John
Back in 1992, my wife was working in the Personnel Department of a hospital. The Fire Brigade called to say that there was an abandoned car blocking a fire access. She tried to locate the owner but was unsuccessful, and her boss told her to contact a local breakers. But before making the call she called me. It was a Triumph Vitesse 2 litre Convertible, but the tyres were flat. It was far too good to be broken, so the next morning I was there with a friend and a spare set of wheels, and we got it home.
I parked it at my house in full view of the road, and sent off for a log book before I did anything to the car.
Three weeks later I had a visit from two policemen and was accused of stealing the car! The Doctor had been notified of my request for the log book and reported it as stolen. Because I had not tried to conceal the car, the Police agreed that this was not a case of stealing but of rescuing, but they were obliged to tell the owner where the car was.
A few days later I got a call from the Doctor, I explained that if I had not intervened his car would by now have been crushed, and even made him an offer to buy it. His pompous reply was that he wanted the car back, but could I keep it for a month until it was convenient for him to collect it.
At this point I lost it totally and told him that unless he removed it within three days I would call the breakers myself! I put his flat tyres back on the car, two days later he arrived to collect the car.
He never got it back on the road.
So if you ever rescue a car with no documents, get a V5 before you start working on it.
I parked it at my house in full view of the road, and sent off for a log book before I did anything to the car.
Three weeks later I had a visit from two policemen and was accused of stealing the car! The Doctor had been notified of my request for the log book and reported it as stolen. Because I had not tried to conceal the car, the Police agreed that this was not a case of stealing but of rescuing, but they were obliged to tell the owner where the car was.
A few days later I got a call from the Doctor, I explained that if I had not intervened his car would by now have been crushed, and even made him an offer to buy it. His pompous reply was that he wanted the car back, but could I keep it for a month until it was convenient for him to collect it.
At this point I lost it totally and told him that unless he removed it within three days I would call the breakers myself! I put his flat tyres back on the car, two days later he arrived to collect the car.
He never got it back on the road.
So if you ever rescue a car with no documents, get a V5 before you start working on it.
Figgle said:
There are plenty of discussions about the V5 not being proof of ownership and most of those threads state that the receipt you get when you buy the car is the real legal document.
This seems all well and good if you're buying a new car, or even a second and one, but what happens if you want to buy a "barn find" that isn't actually in a barn and it's not evident who the owner is?
Exactly the same as if you'd found something in the corner of a barn that doesn't have a "registered keeper" - a piece of potentially valuable furniture or art, f'rexample.This seems all well and good if you're buying a new car, or even a second and one, but what happens if you want to buy a "barn find" that isn't actually in a barn and it's not evident who the owner is?
[quote]It's highly unlikely I know
[quote]I also assume that most barn finds wont be on the DVLA's radar. Would they contact the last known owner when it is re-registered?
Brian_M said:
Back in 1992, my wife was working in the Personnel Department of a hospital. The Fire Brigade called to say that there was an abandoned car blocking a fire access. She tried to locate the owner but was unsuccessful, and her boss told her to contact a local breakers. But before making the call she called me. It was a Triumph Vitesse 2 litre Convertible, but the tyres were flat. It was far too good to be broken, so the next morning I was there with a friend and a spare set of wheels, and we got it home.
I parked it at my house in full view of the road, and sent off for a log book before I did anything to the car.
Three weeks later I had a visit from two policemen and was accused of stealing the car! The Doctor had been notified of my request for the log book and reported it as stolen. Because I had not tried to conceal the car, the Police agreed that this was not a case of stealing but of rescuing, but they were obliged to tell the owner where the car was.
A few days later I got a call from the Doctor, I explained that if I had not intervened his car would by now have been crushed, and even made him an offer to buy it. His pompous reply was that he wanted the car back, but could I keep it for a month until it was convenient for him to collect it.
At this point I lost it totally and told him that unless he removed it within three days I would call the breakers myself! I put his flat tyres back on the car, two days later he arrived to collect the car.
He never got it back on the road.
So if you ever rescue a car with no documents, get a V5 before you start working on it.
Some people !I parked it at my house in full view of the road, and sent off for a log book before I did anything to the car.
Three weeks later I had a visit from two policemen and was accused of stealing the car! The Doctor had been notified of my request for the log book and reported it as stolen. Because I had not tried to conceal the car, the Police agreed that this was not a case of stealing but of rescuing, but they were obliged to tell the owner where the car was.
A few days later I got a call from the Doctor, I explained that if I had not intervened his car would by now have been crushed, and even made him an offer to buy it. His pompous reply was that he wanted the car back, but could I keep it for a month until it was convenient for him to collect it.
At this point I lost it totally and told him that unless he removed it within three days I would call the breakers myself! I put his flat tyres back on the car, two days later he arrived to collect the car.
He never got it back on the road.
So if you ever rescue a car with no documents, get a V5 before you start working on it.
Thanks for all your replies. Some good advice and if the hypothetical situation ever becomes reality I will make sure I have the DVLA on side before starting any work.
Insurance is an interesting suggestion but I really wouldnt want to go that route. How long do you pay it for? Surely a policy wouldnt cover your time, only the value of the car at the point the real owner claimed it back so you probably wouldn't get much for it unless you were nearly completion (several hundreds of hours into the resto).
Insurance is an interesting suggestion but I really wouldnt want to go that route. How long do you pay it for? Surely a policy wouldnt cover your time, only the value of the car at the point the real owner claimed it back so you probably wouldn't get much for it unless you were nearly completion (several hundreds of hours into the resto).
I was thinking of insurance that I've known neighbours to take out when they wanted to break a condition of their property deeds to build an extension beyond a building line to which no neighbour objected. Just in case the owners of the land who set the condition in the deeds came back in the future and said , "OI!", you can get covered for a single premium. You would need advice from a broker.
JOhn
JOhn
tapkaJohnD said:
I was thinking of insurance that I've known neighbours to take out when they wanted to break a condition of their property deeds to build an extension beyond a building line to which no neighbour objected. Just in case the owners of the land who set the condition in the deeds came back in the future and said , "OI!", you can get covered for a single premium. You would need advice from a broker.
JOhn
Oh ok, thanks John. Didn't know that existed but I suppose you can take insurance out for anything nowadays.JOhn
I'll bear it in mind
renaultgeek said:
Can you charge them storage costs if they try to take it back?
Might be something to notify the previous keeper that you get from the dvla that you are storing it for a charge as soon as you find out who they are as the land owner wanted rid of it, to kind of cover your own back so to speakIn principle, the car's owner could pop up and claim it back years later, if he or she could prove ownership. As noted above, a V5 is not proof of ownership.
If you take a barn find and do it up, and the owner then wants it back, you might have a claim under the law of restitution for the cost of work done on the car.
If you take a barn find and do it up, and the owner then wants it back, you might have a claim under the law of restitution for the cost of work done on the car.
Figgle said:
....You have no reason to doubt the person you have been speaking to is the owner, but if there is no documentation whatsoever, would a receipt from them be legal right to ownership of the car?
If the person you are dealing with claims to be but is not in fact the owner of the car, then the bit of paper he gives you confers no legal right on you. The Latin maxim here is "nemo dat quod non habet". No man can give what he does not have. Therefore, no person who does not have title to an item of property can transmit title to another.There is a statutory exception to this in respect of stored goods, but that would not apply to the scenario you posit.
There is a bona fide purchaser exception to the nemo dat rule - The recent case about the "stolen" McLaren F1 Gray v Smith is well worth a read just to see how £1m plus investment deals for these types of cars operate.
www.wilmotslitigation.co.uk/.../Gray%20v%20Smith%2...
www.wilmotslitigation.co.uk/.../Gray%20v%20Smith%2...
Kickstart said:
There is a bona fide purchaser exception to the nemo dat rule - The recent case about the "stolen" McLaren F1 Gray v Smith is well worth a read just to see how £1m plus investment deals for these types of cars operate.
www.wilmotslitigation.co.uk/.../Gray%20v%20Smith%2...
Wow some case, link doesn't work but this one does http://www.wilmotslitigation.co.uk/blog/2013/12/23...www.wilmotslitigation.co.uk/.../Gray%20v%20Smith%2...
Kickstart said:
There is a bona fide purchaser exception to the nemo dat rule - The recent case about the "stolen" McLaren F1 Gray v Smith is well worth a read just to see how £1m plus investment deals for these types of cars operate.
www.wilmotslitigation.co.uk/.../Gray%20v%20Smith%2...
I think that you state the principle too broadly. There is in some limited contexts a bona fide purchaser exception to the nemo dat rule. The facts as stated by the OP would not, in my opinion, give rise to such an exception. The McClaren case has very particular facts and involves American law as well as English.www.wilmotslitigation.co.uk/.../Gray%20v%20Smith%2...
If the OP found an abandoned car in a field and then spoke to a local who was standing by a nearby barn (drinking cider... Ho ho) who told he owned it - then I agree 100% you would never establish bona fide purchaser.
If however you contacted the dvla, spoke to the last keeper and let's say the landowner was the same person who agreed to sell it to you and lastly you did a credit/ownership check and confirmed with the previous keeper that they sold it to the person you bought it from - then I think you would have a very strong case if someone later turned up and claimed ownership.
In the real world abandoned cars without documents are bought all the time and ultimately you either trust or not the person selling it.
Good luck
If however you contacted the dvla, spoke to the last keeper and let's say the landowner was the same person who agreed to sell it to you and lastly you did a credit/ownership check and confirmed with the previous keeper that they sold it to the person you bought it from - then I think you would have a very strong case if someone later turned up and claimed ownership.
In the real world abandoned cars without documents are bought all the time and ultimately you either trust or not the person selling it.
Good luck
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