Lies and damned lies
Discussion
I came across this car for sale:-
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C409878
Making money with a spurious car is nothing new, but when part of the blurb is a complete fabrication I do get angry. Mike's car was VDU 881, and the number disappeared when the car was scrapped at the family's request. Nigel Webb, owner of the Hawthorn museum, his 1955 Le Mans D-type and many other mementoes, spent a long time getting the DVLA to auction 881 VDU yet here they are blatantly pushing 882 VDU as the reverse of "the real thing". Grrrrr.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C409878
Making money with a spurious car is nothing new, but when part of the blurb is a complete fabrication I do get angry. Mike's car was VDU 881, and the number disappeared when the car was scrapped at the family's request. Nigel Webb, owner of the Hawthorn museum, his 1955 Le Mans D-type and many other mementoes, spent a long time getting the DVLA to auction 881 VDU yet here they are blatantly pushing 882 VDU as the reverse of "the real thing". Grrrrr.
That's been up for sale with them for ages. I don't have a problem with it. OK it might not be the exact mirror image reg number, but I don't think that's particularly critical: how many replica Lightweight E-types have 5***WK as a reg. number and think that is supposedly evocative of the old Briggs Cunningham cars?
clubsportguy said:
I don't see what the issue is !! its a tribute to a great driver and a great car. It's not as if, he has rebuild the car in which he was killed in!!
"The registration number of the Hawthorn car was VDU882 so the number on our evocation 882VDU couldn’t be more appropriate"^ The Issue ^
LotusOmega375D said:
That's been up for sale with them for ages. I don't have a problem with it. OK it might not be the exact mirror image reg number, but I don't think that's particularly critical: how many replica Lightweight E-types have 5***WK as a reg. number and think that is supposedly evocative of the old Briggs Cunningham cars?
In itself it's probably not a big deal. The big deal is either a) they know it's not the reverse of the real number and don't care or b)they don't know.If it's a) what else are they hiding and it it's b) what else don't they know about? I mean Google will give you the correct answer in about 0.00032 second.
99% of people would not make the connection with this VDU plate and the 1% who might would know that it has nothing to do with the original Hawthorn car.
There were other VDU plated cars of course, I think I'm correct in remembering that Duncan Hamilton had one at the same time as MH.
Riley Blue said:
Though it's made clear the car is a tribute, the statement that Mike Hawthorn's Jaguar's registration was VDU 882 is incorrect. In the context in which it is made seems to be a deliberate attempt to deceive.
Deceive to what end???No different (to me) than stamping a replacement head to make a car a "matching numbers".
ETA - the car and plate have been around for years http://etypeuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=14629&...
Edited by LordBretSinclair on Monday 27th January 20:32
LordBretSinclair said:
Deceive to what end???
No different (to me) than stamping a replacement head to make a car a "matching numbers".
Very different (to me). They are deliberately misquoting the Hawthorn car registration. I doubt the Hawthorn car had powered rack and pinion steering.No different (to me) than stamping a replacement head to make a car a "matching numbers".
I also have a green Mk1 3.4 which is about as close to Hawthorns as theirs is - i.e not very.
You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Lowdrag stamping a serial number on a new blank head even though this is common practise. Since he's made no secret of it it's hardly deception.
BTW I did write to the vendors some time ago telling them they'd made a mistake with the Hawthorn registration - guess what ?
My Hawthorn Replica - at least the interior is the correct colour.
Edited by mph on Monday 27th January 21:06
RichB said:
ice car, the more I think about it the more I like the Mk1 over the Mk2
Thanks.It's only in the last year or two that I've realised how few Mk1's you see around. Possibly that's part of the attraction for me.
I haven't had chance to put any miles on mine yet as I got it late in the year, looking forward to the spring.
mph said:
LordBretSinclair said:
Deceive to what end???
No different (to me) than stamping a replacement head to make a car a "matching numbers".
You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Lowdrag stamping a serial number on a new blank head even though this is common practise. Since he's made no secret of it it's hardly deception. No different (to me) than stamping a replacement head to make a car a "matching numbers".
Edited by mph on Monday 27th January 21:06
Time passes....loose parts seperate from car...through it all the numbers match all preserving his investment. I don't think lowdrag had thought through quite what he was owning up to in replying to Hoolis post but it undermines both his own credibility as a truth seeker and that of his matching number car.
I'm sure you would be most unhappy if you bought a 'genuine all matching numbers' three eight only to find underneath it was a kitted out two forty....that's deception in a different league but the principles are the same
Yep - lies and damned lies and number stamps.
Willhire89 said:
Count me in too - it is clear (rightly or wrongly) that matching numbers cars are sold at a premium. Applying the matching number to a new replacement part is patently intent on deception - otherwise why do it?
Time passes....loose parts seperate from car...through it all the numbers match all preserving his investment. I don't think lowdrag had thought through quite what he was owning up to in replying to Hoolis post but it undermines both his own credibility as a truth seeker and that of his matching number car.
I'm sure you would be most unhappy if you bought a 'genuine all matching numbers' three eight only to find underneath it was a kitted out two forty....that's deception in a different league but the principles are the same
Yep - lies and damned lies and number stamps.
Many parts on older Jags are date stamped. Do you have a problem with a replacement dynamo if it has the same date as the original ? How far do you go ?Time passes....loose parts seperate from car...through it all the numbers match all preserving his investment. I don't think lowdrag had thought through quite what he was owning up to in replying to Hoolis post but it undermines both his own credibility as a truth seeker and that of his matching number car.
I'm sure you would be most unhappy if you bought a 'genuine all matching numbers' three eight only to find underneath it was a kitted out two forty....that's deception in a different league but the principles are the same
Yep - lies and damned lies and number stamps.
Matching numbers is usually taken to mean the engine and chassis. On rarer Jags the gearbox may also have some relevance. The cylinder head will have very little effect on the value and I would have no problem buying any Jag with a different number on the head.
It's patently ridiculous, in my opinion, to compare this to someone passing off a car with a different engine.
mph said:
Willhire89 said:
Count me in too - it is clear (rightly or wrongly) that matching numbers cars are sold at a premium. Applying the matching number to a new replacement part is patently intent on deception - otherwise why do it?
Time passes....loose parts seperate from car...through it all the numbers match all preserving his investment. I don't think lowdrag had thought through quite what he was owning up to in replying to Hoolis post but it undermines both his own credibility as a truth seeker and that of his matching number car.
I'm sure you would be most unhappy if you bought a 'genuine all matching numbers' three eight only to find underneath it was a kitted out two forty....that's deception in a different league but the principles are the same
Yep - lies and damned lies and number stamps.
Many parts on older Jags are date stamped. Do you have a problem with a replacement dynamo if it has the same date as the original ? How far do you go ?Time passes....loose parts seperate from car...through it all the numbers match all preserving his investment. I don't think lowdrag had thought through quite what he was owning up to in replying to Hoolis post but it undermines both his own credibility as a truth seeker and that of his matching number car.
I'm sure you would be most unhappy if you bought a 'genuine all matching numbers' three eight only to find underneath it was a kitted out two forty....that's deception in a different league but the principles are the same
Yep - lies and damned lies and number stamps.
Matching numbers is usually taken to mean the engine and chassis. On rarer Jags the gearbox may also have some relevance. The cylinder head will have very little effect on the value and I would have no problem buying any Jag with a different number on the head.
It's patently ridiculous, in my opinion, to compare this to someone passing off a car with a different engine.
I think that a purchasor would have a problem with a car they bought that had all the right numbers (and that was something they were happpy to pay a premium for) and then found they were re-stamped to match. In this case lowdrag wants to make the best of his investment and by his own admission is happy to use a little bit of deception to facilitate that.
An enthusiast who wants to use their car is a different case.
It is very clear that Willhire has not one clue as to my intention for my car when rebuilt, nor the previous usage and the reason for the rebuild, so as such he is speaking with but a veneer of information. If I was an investor I would have sold it in 1990 when offered £80,000 and then two years later bought it back at £25,000 when the market crashed. These "holier than thou" people who say their cars are "original" stand the scrutiny of us all, since I have never ever seen an "original" car in over 30 years of Jaguar life. Bits get replaced, it is the nature of the beast. Anyway, this is not the thread for such discussion. I have watched in amazement and amusement the shenanigans on the rebuild thread and will just curtail the said thread if such arcane commentary continues. I started it, like the XKSS conversion and the C-type build threads, to inform and amuse.
My point here was the deliberate deception on the number plate issue. No more.
My point here was the deliberate deception on the number plate issue. No more.
Edited by lowdrag on Tuesday 28th January 06:48
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