One Day I'm Going To Restore It
Discussion
Idly browsing through fleabay it hit me once again that there are certain cars that seem to be very sought after and yet never make it beyond restoration or, if they do, they don't seem to be worth very much.
The examples that I immediately think of are:- the split screen Morris Minor, Triumph Stag, Reliant Scimitar, XJ Coupe, Elan +2
Now I know there are mint examples and there are some high price achievers and also that the aficionados will tell me that I'm wrong, but am I?
What do you think?
Frankly. any classic car over the years has been losing you money with the exception of a rarified few. I've seen £120,000 poured into an E-type, and add that to the purchase price he is certainly on a loser. But there are people who don't care about that and do it for the passion or to recreate a time gone by when sitting at the wheel of Dad's knee. Before people respond to the contrary, I guess Nick Mason's GTO is the other end of the scale, where he paid £25,000 forty years back, but the mainstream cars which were mass-produced (like the Morris 1000) will never claw back a full restoration cost. We all know that it is best to buy once the previous owner has broken his bank.
It's odd how the quoted restoration costs increase with the perceived value of the car at the more attainable level of the market place. Has anyone ever spent 120k restoring a Morris Minor? I reckon a 20k restoration would get you a concours Minor. So why does it cost an E-Type owner 6x as much to achieve the same result?
Interestingly this theory seems to plateau at this sort of figure. So whether it be an E-Type worth 80k, a DB5 @ 375k, a Gullwing Merc @ 550k or even a 20 million quid GTO (values from Classic Cars price guide), it always seems to cost about 100 - 200k to fully restore them. So restoration costs at the top end of the market are relatively insignificant compared to the value of the car.
Interestingly this theory seems to plateau at this sort of figure. So whether it be an E-Type worth 80k, a DB5 @ 375k, a Gullwing Merc @ 550k or even a 20 million quid GTO (values from Classic Cars price guide), it always seems to cost about 100 - 200k to fully restore them. So restoration costs at the top end of the market are relatively insignificant compared to the value of the car.
I think it follows a pattern. Buyers of Moggies or Heralds and the like are not usually (no offense intended here folks) in the same income bracket as the owner of a GT40 so market forces prevail. I must admit to being shocked at the prices being asked nowadays by the marque specialists:-
http://www.morrisminor.org.uk/index.php/morris-min...
but I am sure they know their market and will sell the cars, or they wouldn't stay in business, but a quick look on Ebay tend to show the prices for restored cars being offered privately - a lot less. It's when you get down to individual parts that I totally agree with you. A moggie piston is half the price of a Jaguar one, and when you get into exotica your eyes weep. They know they can get away with it because it is a richer market. I have no idea of the hourly rate for retoring a Moggie, but Jaguar specialists tend to be from £50 per hour upwards. This plus VAT of course, so £60-100 is the ballpark figure.
http://www.morrisminor.org.uk/index.php/morris-min...
but I am sure they know their market and will sell the cars, or they wouldn't stay in business, but a quick look on Ebay tend to show the prices for restored cars being offered privately - a lot less. It's when you get down to individual parts that I totally agree with you. A moggie piston is half the price of a Jaguar one, and when you get into exotica your eyes weep. They know they can get away with it because it is a richer market. I have no idea of the hourly rate for retoring a Moggie, but Jaguar specialists tend to be from £50 per hour upwards. This plus VAT of course, so £60-100 is the ballpark figure.
lowdrag said:
...
A moggie piston is half the price of a Jaguar one, and when you get into exotica your eyes weep. ...
Well a Moggie piston is half the size of a Jaguar one.A moggie piston is half the price of a Jaguar one, and when you get into exotica your eyes weep. ...
I image the expected tolerances in a Jaguar piston are higher than those for a Moggie too.
Then it is more likely that a Jaguar will be expected to run under full power at higher revs, so it likely to suffer significantly higher loads.
I wonder what the price differential would be if you looked a race pistons for the two engines? Would the price get closer? Well probably not, since a few people who race Jaguar engines can afford to buy far more exotic pistons than most of the people who race moggies.
If you take a look at something like C&G's parts catalogues, they'll sell you big end baring bolts for £35 a pop (or have I got the decimal point in the wrong column) and that is because they are built to far higher tolerances than the run of the mill bolt. The metallurgy is far more precise. They know exactly how much the bolt will stretch under what conditions. So that is going to be a much more expensive bolt.
I'm sure they'd happily make you one for your moggie too. But would even a keen Moggie racer want to pay for it?
On the other hand, a GTO driver is likely to want to chase the redline and the engine is more highly stressed than the great lump of a Jaguar XK, so is much more likely to need these precisely engineered parts.
Then add in the fact that not many of the parts will be needed so you loose all the economies of scale.
I have a couple of customers who have restored " regular " classics like minis and minors. One of them was eye watering cost wise. I still failed to see, even at £40 per hour he was charged, how they reached the figure when all of the trim etc was off the shelf stuff.
A couple of years back, I had a Scimitar GTE which was a very nice solid classic, in fact the only fault was micro blistering in the fibreglass paint. I know this can be expensive, but one Scimitar specialist quoted me £10,000 for a respray!!!! On a car that would have been worth £5k at the finish... He said that's the price and he has a waiting list, so there must be punters out there.
A couple of years back, I had a Scimitar GTE which was a very nice solid classic, in fact the only fault was micro blistering in the fibreglass paint. I know this can be expensive, but one Scimitar specialist quoted me £10,000 for a respray!!!! On a car that would have been worth £5k at the finish... He said that's the price and he has a waiting list, so there must be punters out there.
I bought a BMW 3.0 CSL about a year ago, with the intention of going for the full "batmobile" thing, stripes, the lot. Unfortunately, due to the values of them now, I really have to "just" restore it to original. Shame. The prices for the body panels are nothing short of scandalous. Luckily, I can do the work myself, still wont be cheap though.
Further to the disparity in parts prices, I remember reading a few years an article about a bloke restoring an Espada - he went to get rebuild kits for the 6 carbs and was quoted silly money seeing as they were for a Lamborghini, he changed tack and said they were kits for a Volkswagen and bought them from a few different places and the cost of all 6 'VW' kits ended up being the price for just one Lamborghini kit... And another article years ago about a bloke restoring a DB6 Volante who saved a fortune by cross-checking the Lucas parts catalogue and buying from 'lesser' manufacturers.
Amazing what a bit of homework can save you.
Amazing what a bit of homework can save you.
To echo what Todzilla said. When I had my E30 M3, parts with an "M" prefix were fortunes. Luckily, I get on well with Sytners parts, (if you own an old BMW its always a good idea!!)and if you do a bit of homework you can save quite a bit. As an example, the E30 M3 was a bit of a parts bin special, so the front wheelbearings complete with hub was as far as I can recall about £390.00. Ouch. However, if you buy E28 5 series parts they fit. Because they are the same. Just change the ABS rings over. Total cost £120.00. I do admit the clever bit is working out what came from where.
Has this thread gone off at a tangent, I think Carsie was more commenting on how some cars remain as restoration projects.
How many degenerating wrecks have I seen, where the owner has said "it's not for sale, I'm going to restore it someday" and so it stays deteriorating...
Anyone want a Volvo 940 Estate thats not moved since 2008? Few bits missing now, or not missing they're on my other 940.
How many degenerating wrecks have I seen, where the owner has said "it's not for sale, I'm going to restore it someday" and so it stays deteriorating...
Anyone want a Volvo 940 Estate thats not moved since 2008? Few bits missing now, or not missing they're on my other 940.
I find it incredible that hiding away in people's garages are loads of these cars - not run for years, piled high with old rubbish etc ... and eventually ebay is where they finish up. And the money they realise is to be honest in many cases WAY above what they're worth but someone will have The dream or restoring it. And then they'll sit in another garage fo a few months/years often, til that new owner gets bored/runs out of money/gets divorced etc and the cycle begins agin.
My own car was imported, worked on, sold, ebayed, worked on, sold, worked on, sold etc through four UK owners (and still unregistered) before I got it as a basket case.
I'd restore another car if I had more time/space/money but nothing run of the mill, Herald/Moggie Minor etc - there are enough of them around to BUY a decent one for much less.
My own car was imported, worked on, sold, ebayed, worked on, sold, worked on, sold etc through four UK owners (and still unregistered) before I got it as a basket case.
I'd restore another car if I had more time/space/money but nothing run of the mill, Herald/Moggie Minor etc - there are enough of them around to BUY a decent one for much less.
uk66fastback said:
I find it incredible that hiding away in people's garages are loads of these cars - not run for years, piled high with old rubbish etc ... .
.
Ohand to add to the Volvo Estate theres the 71 Mini Clubman Rally Car that sits in my garage (known as the orange shelf) thats done more miles on a trailer up to Scotland and back than on its wheels..
uk66fastback said:
I'd restore another car if I had more time/space/money but nothing run of the mill, Herald/Moggie Minor etc - there are enough of them around to BUY a decent one for much less.
Always been the case, cheaper to buy someone elses restoration than pay for the bits to do your own, unless its a eal rarity.Which is why I spent about £5k on my Mini and its worth......?
I think it's sad that many cars don't get restored because of the "it's not economically beneficial" argument.
Except for the professionals, restoring a car is something one does as a hobby. Since when is a hobby expected to make money? People spend tens of thousands of pounds over many years doing stuff like playing golf, going to watch football matches, going on holiday, etc etc.
Personally, I'd rather wander round a local classic car show looking at restorations that normal blokes have done in their spare time than ever I would look at 'money no object' restorations of hopelessly out of reach exotica. The quality may not be as high, but for me the dedication and effort is what counts.
Except for the professionals, restoring a car is something one does as a hobby. Since when is a hobby expected to make money? People spend tens of thousands of pounds over many years doing stuff like playing golf, going to watch football matches, going on holiday, etc etc.
Personally, I'd rather wander round a local classic car show looking at restorations that normal blokes have done in their spare time than ever I would look at 'money no object' restorations of hopelessly out of reach exotica. The quality may not be as high, but for me the dedication and effort is what counts.
Well said Gaspode. I remember being at a small show a fe years ago and there was a guy sitting behind his Rover 90 - he looked almost desperate to be involved and wanting to talk about the car so after a couple of trips back and down the row I asked him a question about - had it long or something like that - well, goodbye to the next half hour as he told me the whole history and got out the paperwork etc - great though, I loved it - two owners then since new, full history, original paint etc ... I knew the car as well as him by the time I walked away.
Fantastic.
Counter that with being at Duxfoird one year where some bloke and his orange missus were sat behind their beautiful sixties Corvette ... I started firing away a few questions etc and all I got back was one word answers ... Nice car ... - Him: yeah Who painted it? Him: Me ... you get the idea ...
I was gone in half a minute.
Takes all sorts.
Skyedriver: any pics of the Clubman at all?
Fantastic.
Counter that with being at Duxfoird one year where some bloke and his orange missus were sat behind their beautiful sixties Corvette ... I started firing away a few questions etc and all I got back was one word answers ... Nice car ... - Him: yeah Who painted it? Him: Me ... you get the idea ...
I was gone in half a minute.
Takes all sorts.
Skyedriver: any pics of the Clubman at all?
lowdrag said:
but the mainstream cars which were mass-produced (like the Morris 1000) will never claw back a full restoration cost. We all know that it is best to buy once the previous owner has broken his bank.
Watched my dad pour around £12,000 into his W123 Mercedes 280CE....... It now needs another £2,000 of tidying 5years later.
He's now on with his 2nd classic project as well, a 1964 MB 230SL, luckily with that someone else has done all the hard work. He just needs to get the loose ends tidied up....... Still £10,000 over the next 2 years of rolling resto I'd say.
Hence why when me & the OH decided we fancied a classic to replace my 200SX weekend w
e, I went for a slightly over-priced one that needed diddly squat doing barring a couple of paint "Blow-ins" and a service. In the long run, infinitely cheaper to get a mate in a bodyshop to do a door blow-in on an Austin 1300, than a full rebuild on an MGB GT!Jesus H, don't even get me fking started on this topic.
You should try running a Ferrari on a limited budget and see how hard you get kicked in the nuts with the F-tax. Some parts you just can't avoid paying over the odds for because they're specific to the car.
Others?
Mine needed a new a/c compressor (seal had gone). Ferrari quoted £2.5k. + VAT. + fitting. At £180 per hour labour. + VAT on the labour.
Which made my arse twitch like a rabbit's nose, plus I physically didn't have that amount of cash.
Sourced a replacement myself (its the same as a few other common cars) and had it changed by a mobile A/C guy. Cost to me? £345 in total. Including a re-gas.
With the exception of a few bespoke or high-end things, 'Prestigous' cars cost more simply because most people assume you're loaded so try and rip you off. That's it. Pure and simple.
king started on this topic.You should try running a Ferrari on a limited budget and see how hard you get kicked in the nuts with the F-tax. Some parts you just can't avoid paying over the odds for because they're specific to the car.
Others?
Mine needed a new a/c compressor (seal had gone). Ferrari quoted £2.5k. + VAT. + fitting. At £180 per hour labour. + VAT on the labour.
Which made my arse twitch like a rabbit's nose, plus I physically didn't have that amount of cash.
Sourced a replacement myself (its the same as a few other common cars) and had it changed by a mobile A/C guy. Cost to me? £345 in total. Including a re-gas.
With the exception of a few bespoke or high-end things, 'Prestigous' cars cost more simply because most people assume you're loaded so try and rip you off. That's it. Pure and simple.
Cactussed said:
With the exception of a few bespoke or high-end things, 'Prestigous' cars cost more simply because most people assume you're loaded so try and rip you off. That's it. Pure and simple.
Finding this A LOT with fathers XK8, and 230SL. Both have parts common to other stuff, or NOS that can be found at a fraction of dealer/specialist prices.But of course the marque loyalists want to shoot you if you dare mention "eBay and the local back street"....... FFS it's an air filter/pollen filter/whatever else.
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