A first-timer to historic rallying
Discussion
Last week fellow PHer johnfm and I took my 1973 Citroen DS to compete in a historic rally in Europe. It was the first time for both of us on an event like this and we actually did pretty well and won our class (1965-1974). We were pretty stunned with this as there were some damned competitive cars in the class and a lot of very experienced drivers & navigators competing.
I am going to write up a full report (from the perspective of a complete novice) for one of the classic car mags but just thought I would share a few photos and a video of us getting on with it.
All photos (c) of Tony Large (who we naturally christened "Twenty Large")
The cars arriving for pre-start dinner and drinks:
A moody forest shot:
Moments away from a dab of oppo:
Four up after we'd rescued a couple of lads who had knackered the cam on their very tasty Hillman Imp California Coupe. 4 up + mountain hairpin + Citroen DS + 60mph entry speed = a bit of body roll:
Scything through the Austrian countryside like a bullet
Also here is a link to a video John shot from the passenger seat of us closing on a very tidy Triumph TR4. The reason we slow down when we reach the BMW 6 Series is that the driver, also a competitor, is a French copper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwmgGXXc_Q0
Also this art-house Francophile shot by John that I call "J'habite dans un igloo et travaille dans l'usine de huile d'olive"
I am going to write up a full report (from the perspective of a complete novice) for one of the classic car mags but just thought I would share a few photos and a video of us getting on with it.
All photos (c) of Tony Large (who we naturally christened "Twenty Large")
The cars arriving for pre-start dinner and drinks:
A moody forest shot:
Moments away from a dab of oppo:
Four up after we'd rescued a couple of lads who had knackered the cam on their very tasty Hillman Imp California Coupe. 4 up + mountain hairpin + Citroen DS + 60mph entry speed = a bit of body roll:
Scything through the Austrian countryside like a bullet
Also here is a link to a video John shot from the passenger seat of us closing on a very tidy Triumph TR4. The reason we slow down when we reach the BMW 6 Series is that the driver, also a competitor, is a French copper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwmgGXXc_Q0
Also this art-house Francophile shot by John that I call "J'habite dans un igloo et travaille dans l'usine de huile d'olive"
Took me years to get my first class win,
leyorkie said:
Bravo!
Classic :- some wiggely bits coming up
Ha! John was a damned amazing navigator. After a few days he took to calling the real hairpins/switchbacks "intestines"...Classic :- some wiggely bits coming up
As in:
[heavy Aussie accent] "Mate, in 2 miles we're going to hit a big intestine, then a little intestine, then we're right..." [/heavy Aussie accent]
benjj said:
Thanks but I fear your kind of event is perhaps a little more competitive than ours. That being said a win is a win
Well done, Ben. Looks like you've had a cracking time. Don't worry about the French competing Rozzer. Have ran with some of these guys in French events...they've been the maddest of them all. Remember one year on the Rallye d'Alsace there was a French Rozzer in a 2.7RS Rep. He drove the whole event leaving black tyres marks wherever he went and still managed a good position despite his Halda measuring being completely cocked-up due to wheelspin; he was barking-mad!
The TR boys and girls always seem to have very well turned-out cars. Did you guys have any of the TR teams from Belgium and Holland, or, the Alsace TR Club?
v8250 said:
Don't worry about the French competing Rozzer. Have ran with some of these guys in French events...they've been the maddest of them all.
Quite agree. When in uniform they can be right ba
ds but once out of uniform and competing they're fine, I've had some good times keeping up with "Les Flics". I think we may have come across the only honest one then!
When we started the rally someone took me aside and told me that last year he had complained to the organisational team and had a UK crew chucked off the rally on the first day for speeding and overtaking in the wrong place(s). He also resolutely stuck to the posted speed limits at every point without fail. Hence the TR4 and us closing him down and having to stay put until we were able to pass.
Le bd.
When we started the rally someone took me aside and told me that last year he had complained to the organisational team and had a UK crew chucked off the rally on the first day for speeding and overtaking in the wrong place(s). He also resolutely stuck to the posted speed limits at every point without fail. Hence the TR4 and us closing him down and having to stay put until we were able to pass.
Le b
d.v8250 said:
The TR boys and girls always seem to have very well turned-out cars. Did you guys have any of the TR teams from Belgium and Holland, or, the Alsace TR Club?
The TR4 was 2 English guys but there were quite a few from misc countries:Belgian Volvo P1800S
Swiss Alfa GTV
Lots of Frenchies
Dutch beetle, MGBs and others
It was 35 cars in all. I think 25 made it to the end. Only one crashed out, the others were breakdowns / minor explosions!
We were quite impressed with ourselves as a few cars turned up on trailers. We had 1200 miles to do there and back in addition to the 1400km of rallying.
benjj said:
I think we may have come across the only honest one then! When we started the rally someone took me aside and told me that last year he had complained to the organisational team and had a UK crew chucked off the rally on the first day for speeding and overtaking in the wrong place(s). He also resolutely stuck to the posted speed limits at every point without fail. Hence the TR4 and us closing him down and having to stay put until we were able to pass. Le bd.
"Il n'y a pas des surprises-la...mais putant les flics grenouilles"...guys like this should not be invited/re-invited on these type of events. Shame about the attrition rate of only 25 finishing. As always this is down to preparation, preparation, preparation. Yours was clearly spot-on d.
Who/what managed a minor explosion? It wasn't some screaming 2-stroke Saab blatting on homemade high-octane ethanol-type mix?
Out of interest, where's the event running next year?
Perhaps I am being unfair on the garcon en bleu, he wasn't a bad oeuf I suppose and only really held us up that one time in the video clip.
As for the explosion - a slight exaggeration on my part. The most galling was two lads in a cracking Hillman Imp California Coupe that ate its own cam case on the run from the restaurant to the hotel on the first night before the damned race had even started. They competed for two days in a borrowed Citroen AX for a laugh and then packed it in.
As for next year I believe it will once again route from Champagne to Menton (next to Monte Carlo) which should be a good route. We will be there no doubt. Only trouble is that the drive home afterwards is even longer. Then again a week extra on the Riviera in a DS could be quite acceptable...
As for the explosion - a slight exaggeration on my part. The most galling was two lads in a cracking Hillman Imp California Coupe that ate its own cam case on the run from the restaurant to the hotel on the first night before the damned race had even started. They competed for two days in a borrowed Citroen AX for a laugh and then packed it in.
As for next year I believe it will once again route from Champagne to Menton (next to Monte Carlo) which should be a good route. We will be there no doubt. Only trouble is that the drive home afterwards is even longer. Then again a week extra on the Riviera in a DS could be quite acceptable...
We were not running a Halda/Brantz or what have you. We did a 250km tacho calibration on the way down on the motorway and were using a 40 year old Heuer stopwatch. Perhaps I will invest in a Brantz at a later stage though, would save a lot of urgent calculations...
As for mods to the car - they were mainly around cooling and breathing. The front of the car had some additional ventilation work done. New radiator, water pump, all hoses, all belts etc. Also a straight through exhaust with the front box baffles opened up a bit to increase breathing. Essentially anything to keep it cool as the engine block is an early 60's design. There are a few discreet power upgrades too but nothing to worry an inquisitive scrutineer...!
We also swapped the original DS spheres (gas balls which the DS runs in place of shock absorbers) to those from the Citroen Works cars - cornering is by no means flat (see pics above!) but is a lot better than standard.
As for mods to the car - they were mainly around cooling and breathing. The front of the car had some additional ventilation work done. New radiator, water pump, all hoses, all belts etc. Also a straight through exhaust with the front box baffles opened up a bit to increase breathing. Essentially anything to keep it cool as the engine block is an early 60's design. There are a few discreet power upgrades too but nothing to worry an inquisitive scrutineer...!
We also swapped the original DS spheres (gas balls which the DS runs in place of shock absorbers) to those from the Citroen Works cars - cornering is by no means flat (see pics above!) but is a lot better than standard.
I had a long discussion with the winner of this event yesterday (Ian in the Morgan) and, as he has done for the last 3 years, he enjoyed himself immensley. I did this event in 2009 also in the Morgan and it is as competitive as you want it to be but completley non car damaging. The navigation and the use of code boards can be a little irritating but you do get used to it. Ian told me that their tip for winning this year was their success in getting the right route in Germany where apparently they don't print the road numbers on the map. John, his navigator, got out of the car at each junction and walked the 'new' road until he found a sign to signify that they were on the right road - they also built in a small margin into their mph/kph factor to allow for some wrong slots. The disqualification of the crew in 2009 did leave a bad taste in most people's mouths and knowing the crew (the driver of which is a very succesful navigator in the HRCR series) I was very surprised indeed - however I believe the french policeman, who lives in the organisers village, put some considerable pressure on the organiser. James event has proved itself to be very well organised and competitively priced and is well worthy of consideration.
TonyBrooks said:
I had a long discussion with the winner of this event yesterday (Ian in the Morgan) and, as he has done for the last 3 years, he enjoyed himself immensley. I did this event in 2009 also in the Morgan and it is as competitive as you want it to be but completley non car damaging. The navigation and the use of code boards can be a little irritating but you do get used to it. Ian told me that their tip for winning this year was their success in getting the right route in Germany where apparently they don't print the road numbers on the map. John, his navigator, got out of the car at each junction and walked the 'new' road until he found a sign to signify that they were on the right road - they also built in a small margin into their mph/kph factor to allow for some wrong slots. The disqualification of the crew in 2009 did leave a bad taste in most people's mouths and knowing the crew (the driver of which is a very succesful navigator in the HRCR series) I was very surprised indeed - however I believe the french policeman, who lives in the organisers village, put some considerable pressure on the organiser. James event has proved itself to be very well organised and competitively priced and is well worthy of consideration.
The Morgan guys did very well - but as I said to him on the night, getting out at every junction is orienteering - not really rally driving in the true spirit of the event. Hats off to him if that is what floats your boat - but I can't imagine it would be any fun stopping at every junction. Still, each to their own etcEither way, we had piles of fun.
benjj said:
We were not running a Halda/Brantz or what have you. We did a 250km tacho calibration on the way down on the motorway and were using a 40 year old Heuer stopwatch. Perhaps I will invest in a Brantz at a later stage though, would save a lot of urgent calculations...
Thanks Ben. The Terratrip 202+ Classic seems to be the best value and its approved for historic rallying, although its not as period in appearance as the Terratrip Retro or old school Brantz kit. It academic for me really as Ive ended up with a post '82 car, although Im still interested and the car will be built to remain legal, should they advance the cut off by a couple of years.I have a few Heuer and Breitling stopwatches, including a couple of pairs, but Im not sure which would be the most suitable (60, 30 or 15 minute registers; 1/5th or 1/10th of a second divisions and single button or flyback), nor, really, how you use them in practice...
I'd always go for the Brantz pro myself, seen too many people swearing at terratrips and even loosing events because of them. Calibrating them is difficult and if I recal correctly can only be done over a mile where as the Brantz isn't limited at all on it's calibration distance.
Some events penalize digital trips but that would apply to the Terratrip too.
Here's a link to the Brantz
http://www.brantz.co.uk/PDFs/International%202%20P...
They do a matching clock and timer too, which has a special historic setting perfect for IRTC's
http://www.brantz.co.uk/PDFs/Rally%20Clock%20-%20B...
Some events penalize digital trips but that would apply to the Terratrip too.
Here's a link to the Brantz
http://www.brantz.co.uk/PDFs/International%202%20P...
They do a matching clock and timer too, which has a special historic setting perfect for IRTC's
http://www.brantz.co.uk/PDFs/Rally%20Clock%20-%20B...
Edited by velocemitch on Friday 11th November 15:40
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