The Ultimate Sierra Cosworth?

[Olivera]

havoc said:

It's ONLY the competition heritage which is keeping the car at all relevant. And therefore it's only investors who are keeping values anywhere near as high as they are.

Not at all, competition heritage *and* it's enjoyable to drive, has the iconic looks (whale tail), has a hugely capable motorsport engine, and so on. You prefer other cars, that's just fine. It's entirely subjective whether any of your brain dump of cars are 'better' - I would rather have a shot of an RS500 than most of them

[havoc]

Thought that would generate some debate!

aeropilot said:

Another perfect example of not "getting it" .
...
However, having looked at your profile, I now understand why you look at it very differently, and not from an emotive point of view

Ouch!

I do get the emotive bit, but I'm also very conscious that old cars often come with free rose-tints. Also, I guess I've never been a Fast Ford sort of person.

reddiesel said:

What's the point of listing all these cars above ? Most weren't even in Production at the time of the RS500 . Bentley Continental ??

But they are all for sale now for comparable prices to a Sierra Cosworth / RS500. So unless you're a Ford-obsessive, they are all very valid comparators.

My point is - if offered one, would you take a Cossie over ANY of the list above? What about a quarter of them? Half of the list? If you're saying "Yes", then you're either lying or past redemption!

Olivera said:

Not at all, competition heritage *and* it's enjoyable to drive, has the iconic looks (whale tail), has a hugely capable motorsport engine, and so on. You prefer other cars, that's just fine. It's entirely subjective whether any of your brain dump of cars are 'better' - I would rather have a shot of an RS500 than most of them

Now you're gilding the lily. The YB was developed from the Pinto, FFS, and the "motorsport" bit largely consisted of fitting the largest turbo available (quicker/cheaper than developing the engine properly), they've all got a head-gasket habit and even the (rare) homologated/more robust YBD's aren't that reliable above 500bhp. Christ, there are a bunch of people in the US and Japan getting 600bhp from the Honda K20 with stock internals (i.e. fitting turbo, injectors, breathing, ecu), and the Mitsi 4G63 is probably even more robust. Meanwhile the Supra's 2JZ easily hits 1000bhp with just 50% more capacity/cylinders than the YB.

...but as aeropilot said above, these now appeal to those who saw them when they were young and for whom they've always been a poster-car. That I get - been there, done that myself. But please don't try to persuade anyone that they're worth the ridiculous money being asked...that is purely down to their competition history.

[Muzzer79]

havoc said:

T

reddiesel said:

What's the point of listing all these cars above ? Most weren't even in Production at the time of the RS500 . Bentley Continental ??

But they are all for sale now for comparable prices to a Sierra Cosworth / RS500. So unless you're a Ford-obsessive, they are all very valid comparators.

My point is - if offered one, would you take a Cossie over ANY of the list above? What about a quarter of them? Half of the list? If you're saying "Yes", then you're either lying or past redemption!

I can honestly say I'd have a Cossie over:

havoc said:

* for which you could buy any of the following which would be better to drive, often multiples of:-
- Alfa Romeo Guilia QF
- Alpine A110 (old and new, depending on preference)
- Audi RS3 (either)
- BMWs E60 M5, Z3M
- Ford Focus RS Mk1 (good one)
- Civic Type R (EK9, FD2, FK8 for preference),
- Hyundai i30N
- a few Jaguars if you're brave or retired
- various Maserati GTs
- Mazda RX7 (FD3 for preference), RX8 (+ a few spares for when they break )
- Morgan Aero 8 and derivatives
- Peugeot 306 GTi-6 at least, probably a 106 Rallye too depending on your preferences
- nearly anything RenaultSport (OK, manual ones)
- Toyota Celica GT4 and GR86, possibly others I've forgotten
- Vauxhall Monaro / successors

And I'm not a Ford obsessive

Edited by Muzzer79 on Thursday 13th June 14:14

[aeropilot]

havoc said:

reddiesel said:

What's the point of listing all these cars above ? Most weren't even in Production at the time of the RS500 . Bentley Continental ??

But they are all for sale now for comparable prices to a Sierra Cosworth / RS500. So unless you're a Ford-obsessive, they are all very valid comparators.

My point is - if offered one, would you take a Cossie over ANY of the list above? What about a quarter of them? Half of the list? If you're saying "Yes", then you're either lying or past redemption!

From you're list, yes, I'd take a RS500 over everything on your list, because everything on your list is newer and therefore of no real interest.

But, I'd rather have 70k's worth of mint Escort RS1600, or a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina than a 150k+ RS500, but that's because I'm an old git.

[Olivera]

havoc said:

Now you're gilding the lily. The YB was developed from the Pinto, FFS, and the "motorsport" bit largely consisted of fitting the largest turbo available (quicker/cheaper than developing the engine properly), they've all got a head-gasket habit and even the (rare) homologated/more robust YBD's aren't that reliable above 500bhp. Christ, there are a bunch of people in the US and Japan getting 600bhp from the Honda K20 with stock internals (i.e. fitting turbo, injectors, breathing, ecu), and the Mitsi 4G63 is probably even more robust. Meanwhile the Supra's 2JZ easily hits 1000bhp with just 50% more capacity/cylinders than the YB..

The main changes were of course the turbo, but also the new 16v Cosworth designed cylinder head. Head gaskets have been a non-issue for decades, there have been many improved versions since the 1980s, particularly the WRC multi-layer steel gaskets. Hence a YB is completely reliable above 500bhp when (like any engine) it is built and tuned correctly, and not using a knackered old original ECU and wiring loom from the 1980s.

US power figures are usually reality +25% on top, but suffice to say a YB powered car recently got into the 1/4 mile 6s in Malta, and a 200SX drag car in Aus featured on High Performance Academy ditched Jap engines and went for a YB with over 1000bhp.

[aeropilot]

havoc said:

But please don't try to persuade anyone that they're worth the ridiculous money being asked

They are worth what someone is prepared to pay for them. The market dictates the worth or otherwise.

If no one buys at those prices the prices will change to reflect what the market rate is.

[CKY]

Olivera said:

havoc said:

It's ONLY the competition heritage which is keeping the car at all relevant. And therefore it's only investors who are keeping values anywhere near as high as they are.

Not at all, competition heritage *and* it's enjoyable to drive, has the iconic looks (whale tail), has a hugely capable motorsport engine, and so on. You prefer other cars, that's just fine. It's entirely subjective whether any of your brain dump of cars are 'better' - I would rather have a shot of an RS500 than most of them

HA - I always found the best bit about driving one was those Recaros, lovely seat... so supportive whilst managing to be supremely comfortable at the same time.

To provide some contrast to your gushing commentary:
- enjoyable to drive, to be fair most things of the era were rear wheel drive and had a solid back axle with narrow tyres all round, so things were more fun to drive.
- has the iconic looks, yep always puts me in mind of grey council estates seeing stolen cars abandoned and stripped for parts or completely burnt out.
- hugely capable motorsport engine, yes racing RS500s were impressive but the standard road cars were merely 'ok for the time' - laggy, sounded boring, didn't want to rev over 5k rpm, vague/crap gearchange quality, felt and smelt like you were sitting in a new plastic dustbin, honestly after the Recaros these are the memories that last of a Sierra Cosworth RS500 from my driving them.

As you say, everything is subjective, lucky me for not being tempted to drop £100k+ on a Ford Sierra! Rather have an E28 M5 again any day.

[aeropilot]

CKY said:

As you say, everything is subjective, lucky me for not being tempted to drop £100k+ on a Ford Sierra! Rather have an E28 M5 again any day.

Yes, if I was 'forced into' owning a 1980's era classic as a weekend toy, I'd have a E28 M5 over a RS500 as well.

I'd probably choose a mint early analogue dash Quattro over a RS500 as well.

[Mark A S]

aeropilot said:

From you're list, yes, I'd take a RS500 over everything on your list, because everything on your list is newer and therefore of no real interest.

But, I'd rather have 70k's worth of mint Escort RS1600, or a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina than a 150k+ RS500, but that's because I'm an old git.

Ditto, me too. And, i think the "old git" inference is entirely relevant here as like you, we grew up with those types of car, well maybe not the Cortina, but certainly Mk 1/2 Escorts, and not forgetting the Lotus Sunbeam
I was around 28/9 when i got my first cossie, a 2wd Sapphire in moonstone. After Brodie Britain's breathed on it it went rather well and was smoother to drive. Did quite a few sprints in it with many class wins. It was still a good road car. Fareham to Snetterton in 2 hours one damp morning was memorable

In 92 i bought my Escort cossie, a motorsports version as i could not quite afford a luxury, car is still around, has some decent M sports history [it/we won the Midland Hillclimb championship in 97] wonder what that's worth ?

And the Sapphire, chap i sold it too still has it and i believe its still on around 12k miles!, again wonder what that's worth ?

350k for a RS500 is still bonkers money though

[Muzzer79]

havoc said:

please don't try to persuade anyone that they're worth the ridiculous money being asked...that is purely down to their competition history.

There's no persuasion required because it's a binary calculation.

A car is worth what several people are willing to pay for it.

Arguing that it's not worth that is subjective - you're bringing an opinion on it's quality as a car into it.

I wouldn't pay £20m for a Van Gogh painting, or a Banksy. But that doesn't mean it's not worth it. It's worth is defined by the fact that several people have paid that money for it.

The going rate for a good RS500 is six figures. That's defined by several cars selling for that money, therefore that's what they're worth.

You may not be willing to pay that. The sum total of their parts may not add up to that. Other cars may be subjectively better, for less money. But that doesn't affect what the RS500 is worth.

[I-am-the-reverend]

havoc said:

the Cossie (which wasn't a brilliant driver's car when new)

Riiiiight. Okay.

Pretty much every period road test says the opposite. They were a very well sorted car, being based on what was a very capable base car. The brakes were probably a bit lacking in typical Ford style though.

[FilH]

You either get the whole Sierra cosworth thing or you don't.

And im sure the £100k + buyers do, ading the top one to their collections.


Im at the bottom of the cosworth rung ( 4x4 sapphire ) And these days I often think about selling it on ( mainly due the PITA swerving the old ULEZ )


But then on the rare occasion it comes out, the comments, people on their camera phones and thumbs up, due to just seeing it out . Makes it stay. Oh and the 30psi of boost making 400hp helps alot too!

And I theres is no other classic toy I want really. And that I can think of, that would get this sort of attention.

[eliot]

Yeh I get loads of thumbs up and pointing in my moonstone 3dr - even a pair of coppers in a riot van giving way to me at a roundabout.

It’s something I couldn’t afford in the 80’s as a teenager and made it happen now in my 50’s - you’re a long time dead.

there’s still non 500’s about for less than 50k

[reddiesel]

eliot said:

Yeh I get loads of thumbs up and pointing in my moonstone 3dr - even a pair of coppers in a riot van giving way to me at a roundabout.

It’s something I couldn’t afford in the 80’s as a teenager and made it happen now in my 50’s - you’re a long time dead.

there’s still non 500’s about for less than 50k

Well said , I take my hat off to people with your attitude .

[aeropilot]

eliot said:

It’s something I couldn’t afford in the 80’s as a teenager and made it happen now in my 50’s - you’re a long time dead.

[havoc]

aeropilot said:

From you're list, yes, I'd take a RS500 over everything on your list, because everything on your list is newer and therefore of no real interest.

But, I'd rather have 70k's worth of mint Escort RS1600, or a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina than a 150k+ RS500, but that's because I'm an old git.

Now there IS a very emotional statement. Dismissing generations of cars because they're the wrong age. Suggest you go hand your petrolhead card in at the door...

Mark A S said:

...and not forgetting the Lotus Sunbeam

Drove one of them...ridiculously soft suspension (and handling), but gloriously tail-happy and a stonking engine note.

The owner was very unimpressed though when he couldn't get away from my Mk1 Focus diesel (the 1.7 8v version). And he was probably a better driver than me at the time.

Muzzer79 said:

havoc said:

please don't try to persuade anyone that they're worth the ridiculous money being asked...that is purely down to their competition history.

There's no persuasion required because it's a binary calculation.

A car is worth what several people are willing to pay for it.

I explained that one earlier - you're confusing investors with enthusiasts. Without 'investors' (spit) in the market, these cars would be back at 2010-2015 prices, as would all the JDM-unobtainium (inc. my NSX - I've got skin in this game with a similarly-iconic car), E30 M3s, Integrales etc. And uber-exotica like F40/F50, Paganis, LFA's etc MIGHT not be unobtainable for the 99.99% of us who WOULD actually drive the doors off them.

THAT is what I mean by worth - worth as a car to use, not as an asset to sit and watch appreciate.

[aeropilot]

havoc said:

aeropilot said:

From you're list, yes, I'd take a RS500 over everything on your list, because everything on your list is newer and therefore of no real interest.

But, I'd rather have 70k's worth of mint Escort RS1600, or a Mk.1 Lotus-Cortina than a 150k+ RS500, but that's because I'm an old git.

Now there IS a very emotional statement. Dismissing generations of cars because they're the wrong age. Suggest you go hand your petrolhead card in at the door...

You are doing exactly the same thing, you are dismissing cars by your own set of criteria, i.e based on what you like and dislike.
My preferred interest for a weekend toy is a much older classic, thats just my preference. Once you get past 1980 the cars I have any interest in starts to become very small, and almost non-existent past the mid 90's....in terms of a weekend toy.....I prefer the raw feeling of driving old machinery rather than something that is not a lot different to driving my daily driver.

[havoc]

aeropilot said:

You are doing exactly the same thing, you are dismissing cars by your own set of criteria, i.e based on what you like and dislike.
My preferred interest for a weekend toy is a much older classic, thats just my preference. Once you get past 1980 the cars I have any interest in starts to become very small, and almost non-existent past the mid 90's....in terms of a weekend toy.....I prefer the raw feeling of driving old machinery rather than something that is not a lot different to driving my daily driver.

No, I'm not. I've never dismissed the Cossie.

I'm saying that a it's a good car* that is massively over-valued in the market simply because of its competition pedigree and the impact of investors on the current market. I'm trying to cut past the rose-tint hype from the owners on here.

I'm also pointing out that there are dozens of cars that are available for a similar or lesser price that offer a better driving experience in some or all ways, if you can get past the halo effect of its success in motorsport. (Which, let's be honest, we all know doesn't reflect what a road car is really about - 206 WRC anyone?)

You've brought 'weekend toy' into this - YOUR filter there. I didn't. Any of the cars I listed could be a daily driver. The Cossie was intended as a daily driver. Again - YOUR prejudice.


* Not a great one. Contemporary road tests rated it but times moved on quickly, and for me the 80s found themselves caught between the purity of the 60s/70s and the (enhancing rather than isolating) technological and quality advances of the 90s.

[GTRene]

aeropilot said:

Err......have you not seen some of the recent auction prices for E30 M3's, 22B's and Evo Integrale's...!!

Examples of all 3 of the above have easily exceeded 6 figure sums, a couple of Evo Integrale's have exceeded 200k, and a couple of 22B's have exceeded 400k...!!

not all, see this one for a lot less, a lucky buyer I guess.

sold for 131K US dollar...



https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1998-subaru-impr...

[aeropilot]

havoc said:

I'm also pointing out that there are dozens of cars that are available for a similar or lesser price that offer a better driving experience in some or all ways

So what..?

That's YOUR prejudice.
Most people buying a classic are not choosing based on a better driving experience or anything, they are buying based on an emotional connection, which can be a lot of things, but usually putting a smile on your face.
I know accountants struggle with such a concept, but go on try it, you might be surprised, and it might not just be wind.

havoc said:

You've brought 'weekend toy' into this - YOUR filter there. I didn't. Any of the cars I listed could be a daily driver. The Cossie was intended as a daily driver. Again - YOUR prejudice.

Well, anyone spunking 100k+ on a RS500 won't be using it, or even buying it to be a daily driver, it's a weekend toy.....and if you think otherwise, then you are deluded, so not my prejudice at all.......you are the one fixated by continually trying to offer a ludicrous list of options to a RS500 based on them being a better car for less money.....which is YOUR prejudice.

I spend most of my working life arguing the toss with bloody bean counters, and this is starting to feel to much like work now.