The Ultimate Sierra Cosworth?

[cerb4.5lee]

rallycross said:

this one looks stunning, 13k miles 1+ owner

https://youtu.be/OWvDXFHHQOg?si=STwxbkVswiXg1sXc

£250,000......

My 3 door was a stunning Moonstone example wish I still had it (sold for £5k years ago, not a 500 but had a load of nice 500 parts on it).

I watched that video last night and I really enjoyed it.

I bet my dad is regretting not buying the black 3dr that we had a test drive of back in the 80's now in fairness! These go for crazy money now for sure.

[reddiesel]

skwdenyer said:

I was taking about those who *did* buy them as investments. Of which there were definitely some. Where do you think all these micro-mileage RS500s have come from?

I hate to break it to you, but there are lots of working class people in London & surroundings And in any case I was talking about investments - plenty of Northerners (like me) who own property in London as an investment without living there!

It’s just my luck that I upset a Northern Plutocrat with property in London (perhaps you are just claiming to be Northern but poor like the rest of us) Initially when these were new it’s my guess more were bought to be driven rather than Investments .Sadly genuine Ford Enthusiasts have been driven from the marketplace as the smart money moves in .

Edited by reddiesel on Wednesday 12th June 16:21

[skwdenyer]

reddiesel said:

skwdenyer said:

I was taking about those who *did* buy them as investments. Of which there were definitely some. Where do you think all these micro-mileage RS500s have come from?

I hate to break it to you, but there are lots of working class people in London & surroundings And in any case I was talking about investments - plenty of Northerners (like me) who own property in London as an investment without living there!

It’s just my luck that I upset a Northern Plutocrat with property in London (perhaps you are just claiming to be Northern but poor like the rest of us) Initially when these were new it’s my guess more were bought to be driven rather than Investments .Sadly genuine Ford Enthusiasts have been driven from the marketplace as the smart money moves in .

Edited by reddiesel on Wednesday 12th June 16:21

[havoc]

reddiesel said:

Sadly genuine Ford Enthusiasts have been driven from the marketplace as the smart money moves in .

Same everywhere chap, not just Ford.

"Investors" are a scourge on the modern classic car market, and I say that as someone who's seen the value of his weekend toy triple.


That said, a Sierra Cossie, of ANY type, just isn't a 6-figure car. At all.

[reddiesel]

You won't be surprised to hear I disagree with you on the value aspect especially the Sierra examples and for the reasons I have already stated . I think the car is damned simply for being a Ford . If the RS500 had a more exotic badge attached nobody would blink an eye lid at these rising values .

[zeb]

I agree the price is amazing but the most amazing aspect of this is the supplying dealer was in Liverpool .

[cerb4.5lee]

reddiesel said:

Sadly genuine Ford Enthusiasts have been driven from the marketplace as the smart money moves in .

What I always used to love about Performance Fords was their affordability(that is also what I love about my 370Z too), so it is quite a shock for me to see the prices that these command now. Fords were always the poor mans(or womens) performance car, whereas now you have to be properly minted to buy one though.

[eliot]

havoc said:

reddiesel said:

Sadly genuine Ford Enthusiasts have been driven from the marketplace as the smart money moves in .

Same everywhere chap, not just Ford.

"Investors" are a scourge on the modern classic car market, and I say that as someone who's seen the value of his weekend toy triple.


That said, a Sierra Cossie, of ANY type, just isn't a 6-figure car. At all.

only the low mileage low owner rs500’s are six figures. I paid substantially less for a mint fully restored cossie and it was cheap because it was no longer “original” - but that’s fine by me, I can get out and use it and take it to meets and everyone loves seeing it.

Only the cosworth beards get their knickers in a twist about originality and mileage - everyone else just loves seeing one out and about.

[havoc]

reddiesel said:

You won't be surprised to hear I disagree with you on the value aspect especially the Sierra examples and for the reasons I have already stated . I think the car is damned simply for being a Ford . If the RS500 had a more exotic badge attached nobody would blink an eye lid at these rising values .

I actually think the opposite - there's a bunch of Ford-obsessives who are pushing prices UP. I'm trying to think of a 4cyl turbo 4wd 'exotic' (or even something similar) that carries a 6-figure price tag.

Closest equivalents I can think of are:-
- E30 M3 special editions - a peer in touring car racing, and again somewhat over-priced BECAUSE of the competition heritage.
- Impreza 22B - properly bespoke variant with a modified bodyshell and a rather different engine, plus a few other tweaks. Quicker and better to drive than a Cossie too.
- Delta Integrale. Nowhere near 6-figures, and again a very special car to drive, which the Cossie sadly isn't.

I mean, go through this list here* - Porsches are (unsurprisingly) the most common, followed by old Fords and then old BMWs. And the BMWs in the main are rare, more-exotic beasties and/or with motorsport-spec engines. "Fast (sic) Fords" are OVER-valued compared to their peers in this country.

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/search?cylinders=0...

eliot said:

Only the cosworth beards get their knickers in a twist about originality and mileage - everyone else just loves seeing one out and about.

Not that dissimilar to the Jap scene - a lot of tuned/modified/enhanced cars which attract less £ than the 'originals', despite being better cars (to drive / to own / to maintain).



* <8 cyl, <350bhp, 1995 and older, >£50k

[aeropilot]

havoc said:

reddiesel said:

You won't be surprised to hear I disagree with you on the value aspect especially the Sierra examples and for the reasons I have already stated . I think the car is damned simply for being a Ford . If the RS500 had a more exotic badge attached nobody would blink an eye lid at these rising values .

I actually think the opposite - there's a bunch of Ford-obsessives who are pushing prices UP. I'm trying to think of a 4cyl turbo 4wd 'exotic' (or even something similar) that carries a 6-figure price tag.

Closest equivalents I can think of are:-
- E30 M3 special editions - a peer in touring car racing, and again somewhat over-priced BECAUSE of the competition heritage.
- Impreza 22B - properly bespoke variant with a modified bodyshell and a rather different engine, plus a few other tweaks. Quicker and better to drive than a Cossie too.
- Delta Integrale. Nowhere near 6-figures, and again a very special car to drive, which the Cossie sadly isn't.

Err......have you not seen some of the recent auction prices for E30 M3's, 22B's and Evo Integrale's...!!

Examples of all 3 of the above have easily exceeded 6 figure sums, a couple of Evo Integrale's have exceeded 200k, and a couple of 22B's have exceeded 400k...!!

[Muzzer79]

havoc said:

That said, a Sierra Cossie, of ANY type, just isn't a 6-figure car. At all.

I find this to be an odd comment

A car is what the market will pay for it. If multiple people will pay 6 figures, it's a 6 figure car.

You may not want to pay 6 figures, but that doesn't mean it's not worth 6 figures.

I wouldn't pay north of 30 grand for a brand new Golf, but it doesn't mean it's not a 30 grand car.

[Youforreal.]

Muzzer79 said:

havoc said:

That said, a Sierra Cossie, of ANY type, just isn't a 6-figure car. At all.

I find this to be an odd comment

A car is what the market will pay for it. If multiple people will pay 6 figures, it's a 6 figure car.

You may not want to pay 6 figures, but that doesn't mean it's not worth 6 figures.

I wouldn't pay north of 30 grand for a brand new Golf, but it doesn't mean it's not a 30 grand car.

As said above, it’s not your normal joe bloggs buying these, it’s an investment, I guarantee if it was going to depreciate like most normal cars nobody would be throwing these kinds of sums at them (that’s all cars)

The cars isn’t worth that….they’re just hoping their investment pays off in the years to come.

[havoc]

Youforreal. said:

Muzzer79 said:

havoc said:

That said, a Sierra Cossie, of ANY type, just isn't a 6-figure car. At all.

I find this to be an odd comment

A car is what the market will pay for it. If multiple people will pay 6 figures, it's a 6 figure car.

You may not want to pay 6 figures, but that doesn't mean it's not worth 6 figures.

I wouldn't pay north of 30 grand for a brand new Golf, but it doesn't mean it's not a 30 grand car.

As said above, it’s not your normal joe bloggs buying these, it’s an investment, I guarantee if it was going to depreciate like most normal cars nobody would be throwing these kinds of sums at them (that’s all cars)

The cars isn’t worth that….they’re just hoping their investment pays off in the years to come.

Exactly this.


I can name well over a dozen cars off the top of my head that are substantially cheaper than an RS500 (to buy and probably not that different to run), are better to drive, better to look at (most of them, anyway), sound better and give the owner more of a feel-good vibe. By that measure - ownership/use, not "investment" (spit), the Cossie isn't worth it. Half the modern classics out there aren't, in fairness, but the Cossie (which wasn't a brilliant driver's car when new) has to be the poster-boy for this phenomenon.

[skwdenyer]

havoc said:

Exactly this.


I can name well over a dozen cars off the top of my head that are substantially cheaper than an RS500 (to buy and probably not that different to run), are better to drive, better to look at (most of them, anyway), sound better and give the owner more of a feel-good vibe. By that measure - ownership/use, not "investment" (spit), the Cossie isn't worth it. Half the modern classics out there aren't, in fairness, but the Cossie (which wasn't a brilliant driver's car when new) has to be the poster-boy for this phenomenon.

There's no doubt the Cossie was and is iconic. Not for its "working class hero" status, but more for demonstrating how turbocharging could (now) be used to deliver supercar performance at a fraction of the price whilst still being a reliable everyday motor serviceable at your local Ford dealership. Just as the Saab 99 and BMW 2002 tii Turbos paved the way for turbocharging in general (in Europe, at least), the Cossie made it abundantly clear the era of exotic engineering to achieve mind-boggling performance was well and truly over.

It didn't have any significant impact in, say, the USA, because everyday cars making big power had always been a thing there. That lack of global impact and appeal makes the current pricing a little more surprising.

[aeropilot]

skwdenyer said:

havoc said:

Exactly this.


I can name well over a dozen cars off the top of my head that are substantially cheaper than an RS500 (to buy and probably not that different to run), are better to drive, better to look at (most of them, anyway), sound better and give the owner more of a feel-good vibe. By that measure - ownership/use, not "investment" (spit), the Cossie isn't worth it. Half the modern classics out there aren't, in fairness, but the Cossie (which wasn't a brilliant driver's car when new) has to be the poster-boy for this phenomenon.

There's no doubt the Cossie was and is iconic. Not for its "working class hero" status, but more for demonstrating how turbocharging could (now) be used to deliver supercar performance at a fraction of the price whilst still being a reliable everyday motor serviceable at your local Ford dealership. Just as the Saab 99 and BMW 2002 tii Turbos paved the way for turbocharging in general (in Europe, at least), the Cossie made it abundantly clear the era of exotic engineering to achieve mind-boggling performance was well and truly over.

It didn't have any significant impact in, say, the USA, because everyday cars making big power had always been a thing there. That lack of global impact and appeal makes the current pricing a little more surprising.

It didn't have an impact in the USA because it wasn't sold there (and the septics had no interest in Touring Car racing, unlike UK/EU and Australia etc)
Like any fast Ford, it's iconic status in the showroom was as much down to its success on race/rally/rallycross circuits in Europe and Australia etc.
Most homologation specials were by their nature pretty crap as road cars, or at least compromised as road cars, but that isn't the point.
And often, the worse they were when new, the more they are now worth 20, 30, 40 etc years later

[sortedcossie]

Interestingly, the sister car to my 1996 Escort Cosworth (chassis number one digit lower), same colour and spec has recently been for sale and now sold. That car had done 400 miles from new in 1996, that's right - 400 miles. The advert price - £125,000

Low miles well looked after cars will command a premium usually in 6 figures. Times are tough in some ways for folk, but those with the money and the desire to own something 80's/90's that's rare are spending.

There are nice, usable examples of many of the Cosworth Fords at more reasonable costs. The days of sub 20k have long gone, but there are nice cars out there sub 40k (RS500's excluded).

Edited by sortedcossie on Thursday 13th June 11:32

[Olivera]

havoc said:

I can name well over a dozen cars off the top of my head that are substantially cheaper than an RS500 (to buy and probably not that different to run), are better to drive, better to look at (most of them, anyway), sound better and give the owner more of a feel-good vibe. By that measure - ownership/use, not "investment" (spit), the Cossie isn't worth it. Half the modern classics out there aren't, in fairness, but the Cossie (which wasn't a brilliant driver's car when new) has to be the poster-boy for this phenomenon.

On the contrary, I would say that the RS500 has iconic looks, is a road going homologation car (for the competition cars that have an incredible race history), and is actually good to drive (albeit of it's era). Worth noting that Plato and Catchpole both drove a cossie (albeit of the Escort variety) in videos within the last few years, and both really enjoyed it. A homologation version of a normal passenger car in the 1980s with a 400-500 bhp capable engine (YB thick wall race block with huge T4 turbo and 8 injector rail) was quite nuts, hence the following and values.

[havoc]

Olivera said:

On the contrary, I would say that the RS500 has iconic looks, is a road going homologation car (for the competition cars that have an incredible race history), and is actually good to drive (albeit of it's era). Worth noting that Plato and Catchpole both drove a cossie (albeit of the Escort variety) in videos within the last few years, and both really enjoyed it. A homologation version of a normal passenger car in the 1980s with a 400-500 bhp capable engine (YB thick wall race block with huge T4 turbo and 8 injector rail) was quite nuts, hence the following and values.

I'm not saying it's NOT fun to drive, I'm just saying it's not all that special for what's now a £50-100k car*. Steering was decent, the chassis was "decent" rather than being stellar, brakes were just enough for the stock car but not for anything tuned, and the RS500 motor had a bloody awful laggy turbo (even the stock ones were very definitely 'old school' turbo).

It's ONLY the competition heritage which is keeping the car at all relevant. And therefore it's only investors who are keeping values anywhere near as high as they are.



* for which you could buy any of the following which would be better to drive, often multiples of:-
- Alfa Romeo Guilia QF
- Alpine A110 (old and new, depending on preference)
- Aston Martin V8 Vantage (most), plus some of their better V12 machines
- Audi RS3 (either), RS4 (a few), R8 (both engines)
- BMWs E46 M3, E90 M3, 1M, E39 & E60 M5, Z3M, etc. etc. Hell, you could make a case for stuff like the 330Ci Clubsport if you wanted to
- Bentley Conti GT
- Ford Focus RS Mk1 (good one), and various special Mustangs
- Honda NSX, S2000, Civic Type R (EK9, FD2, FK8 for preference), Integra Type R (DC2 or DC5)
- Hyundai i30N
- a few Jaguars if you're brave or retired
- Lambo Gallardo variants
- most Lotuses from the last 40 years
- various Maserati GTs
- Mazda RX7 (FD3 for preference), RX8 (+ a few spares for when they break )
- ...probably a few Mclarens
- Merc AMG C63, E63, A45 (maybe), SL55, SL63, SL65 (possibly)
- Mitsubishi Evo VI / VII / VIII / IX
- Morgan Aero 8 and derivatives
- Nissan GTRs (R35, probably still some older ones too) + 350/370Z
- Peugeot 306 GTi-6 at least, probably a 106 Rallye too depending on your preferences
- Porsche 987, 981, 718, 993, 996, 997 and 991 in various flavours, inc. a few GT cars
- nearly anything RenaultSport (OK, manual ones)
- most Impreza variants. Legacy R possibly too.
- any TVR from Griff/Chim onwards
- Toyota Celica GT4 and GR86, possibly others I've forgotten
- Vauxhall Monaro / successors

(Have I forgotten anything? )

[aeropilot]

Another perfect example of not "getting it" .

Ignoring the pure investor buyer here, as that's a whole different ball game, people don't buy old cars with their head, they buy with their heart, its not a logical this is a better car than that for the money. It doesn't work like that, so you're list is pointless to someone that as a youth stood at trackside in the late 80's looking at Rouse, Tricky Dicky or Skoggy manhandling a 550hp RS500 around a track, and now 35 years later being in the financial position to buy that dream.

However, having looked at your profile, I now understand why you look at it very differently, and not from an emotive point of view

[reddiesel]

What's the point of listing all these cars above ? My Porsche is a better drive than most Cosworths but so what ? Its not a Cosworth .

Edited by reddiesel on Thursday 13th June 13:22