Underrated classics
Discussion
vario-rob said:
Of course the early cars were both porous and downright poor in so many ways. I may be correct in saying that the family Clapham993 car is probably the last working example in existence (or thereabouts) the rest having done a damn good impression of an alkaseltzer when exposed to water.
The thrust of my point are the cars made during the late eighties when Jag had been saved from the clutches of BL and were trading healthily under John Egan. Granted they never had the same build as an SEC or a 928 but they were a good old charger none the less.
As a case in point there is a top rate Jag specialist just outside Bury St Eds. who’s selling his own 88 car with 40 thou and just the one owner. A concourse ‘S’ for £4.5k what more could you want?
Well actually my old chaps 88 Series III V12 which he still regards as the nicest car he’s ever had and that does include a few. Drop dead looks, sledgehammer performance and well screwed together. The irony of trading it in for a Maserati bi-turbo will not be lost on the cognoscenti of this board.
How about an M635? A hoofing bit of kit
And, lest you think that the SIII V12 to which Vario refers cannot cut it amongst the hallowed turf of the S Class/7 Series, remember this; For about twenty years until the intro of the X300 Daimler Super V8, the SIII XJ12 was, on the occasions she took the wheel herself, the motor car Her Majesty the Queen drove....
>> Edited by clapham993 on Monday 15th November 10:59
Ok, I rate the xjs, I only have a 3.6 but what other car can you buy which has that sort of power for the cost, parts are dirt cheap too if you you go for a pre-facelift model. boge shocks as per original spec for less than £30 each, brake pads for front less than £20 a set. I even just had a major rebiuld of the aircon, new dryer, recon compressor, change to r34 gas £380 all in. This car is proving cheaper all round to run than the cavalier 2.0 16v sri I had before. Ok it doesn't travel quite a many miles, about half the miles. The cav cost me loads of cash for brakes, cambelt changes, water pump, but mostly insurence which was well in excess of twice what the Jag costs. Make sure if you do buy one, that you buy a good one. it even does 23 mpg average.
ARH said:
Ok, I rate the xjs, I only have a 3.6 but what other car can you buy which has that sort of power for the cost, parts are dirt cheap too if you you go for a pre-facelift model. boge shocks as per original spec for less than £30 each, brake pads for front less than £20 a set. I even just had a major rebiuld of the aircon, new dryer, recon compressor, change to r34 gas £380 all in. This car is proving cheaper all round to run than the cavalier 2.0 16v sri I had before. Ok it doesn't travel quite a many miles, about half the miles. The cav cost me loads of cash for brakes, cambelt changes, water pump, but mostly insurence which was well in excess of twice what the Jag costs. Make sure if you do buy one, that you buy a good one. it even does 23 mpg average.
You never found CAV web then ? www.cavweb-forums.co.uk
Anyway your fuel consumption is close to my mk2 cav 1.8 8V SRi, but I bet if I drove the Jag, I'd dip below 12 MPG !!!!
jacko lah said:
You never found CAV web then ? www.cavweb-forums.co.uk
Anyway your fuel consumption is close to my mk2 cav 1.8 8V SRi, but I bet if I drove the Jag, I'd dip below 12 MPG !!!!
I did find cavweb, as for consumption you can drive it as hard as you like without killing consumption, the only thing that kills it is stop start driving. I don't take it easy in this car at all.
Vauxhall Firenza - a car begging for a stock V8.
Citroen SM and CX - how did we ever end up with the Citroen C5?
IMHO, the XJS was the biggest disappointment in the history of automative design. I recall as a young impressionable lad being told in "Motor" that they would be revealing the successor to the E-Type. I recall rushing to the newsagent just to glimpse this new Jaguar and there it was on the cover: bloody distressing it was, a pig of a car with headlamps that looked like Liberace's ring (cough)and buttresses sellotaped off a Ferrari and the ugliest rear lights ever to make production.
Porsche tried to counter with the 928 but even that wasn't as downright ugly as the XJS, not even close.
Citroen SM and CX - how did we ever end up with the Citroen C5?
IMHO, the XJS was the biggest disappointment in the history of automative design. I recall as a young impressionable lad being told in "Motor" that they would be revealing the successor to the E-Type. I recall rushing to the newsagent just to glimpse this new Jaguar and there it was on the cover: bloody distressing it was, a pig of a car with headlamps that looked like Liberace's ring (cough)and buttresses sellotaped off a Ferrari and the ugliest rear lights ever to make production.
Porsche tried to counter with the 928 but even that wasn't as downright ugly as the XJS, not even close.
LuS1fer said:
Vauxhall Firenza - a car begging for a stock V8.
People seem to think 'muscle cars' are an American and Australian thing. We've got loads! Capri, Firenza, Magnum, Rapier, Avenger Tiger, Ventora, RS2000 - the Yanks stuck big engines in mid-sized coupes, we got the same performance by tweaking cylinder heads and boring engines out to 2+ litres. And as we can see from the names above, they sound as macho as the Yanks 
v8thunder said:
Vauxhall Firenza - a car begging for a stock V8.
Steady on there. Muscle car is a big tag to bear. Capri 1300 a muscle car? Best the Capri managed was the limited availability RS3100 and that was less than 150bhp. The Capri 3000E only had about 135bhp and had no brakes. Firenza made (I think)136bhp in HP form but even in Sport guise was a wheezing under-carbed 2.3 bleating out about 110bhp and the Magnum was the same but with lots more luxury weight to tote round. The Rapier was a 1750cc Holbay tuned engine and I think made about 100bhp, the Avenger Tiger used the same engine as did the Hunter GLS and the Ventora was the most strangled 3.3 in history (bar the American Ford 3.3 in the Mustang III)and the RS2000 used a Cortina engine. I don't think any one counts as a muscle car where torque rather than ultimate output made even the "strangled by emissions" 70's and 80's cars seem powerful even if they weren't.
They were, however, credible semi-sports cars that handled well for their era (outhandling the so-called sports cars from MG and Triumph)but in general, they were cars that put genuine 100mph performance in reach of more people. I think the first muscle car worthy of the tag was the Rover SD1 Vitesse.
LuS1fer said:
IMHO, the XJS was the biggest disappointment in the history of automative design. I recall as a young impressionable lad being told in "Motor" that they would be revealing the successor to the E-Type. I recall rushing to the newsagent just to glimpse this new Jaguar and there it was on the cover: bloody distressing it was, a pig of a car with headlamps that looked like Liberace's ring (cough)and buttresses sellotaped off a Ferrari and the ugliest rear lights ever to make production.
Porsche tried to counter with the 928 but even that wasn't as downright ugly as the XJS, not even close.
Hold on a minute, the 'S' may have been one of, if not the worst car ever to cheat it's way into my affections by way of inumerable, unfulfilled promises but it was not, to my appreciation, anywhere remotely near the eyesore some thought.
Later examples with all that TWR 80's-esque bodykit paraphenalia were pure chump city, for sure but a mid-late 70's 'Ogilvy spec' manual, in white, was a thing of contemporary aesthetic greatness.
The 928 was altogether more purposeful of stance but descriptions like "Rubenesque" remain wholly appropriate for this brawnier alternative.
I ran both Tommy & Fritz together for a while and felt like the playboy Gavin from The Cuckoo Waltz, the 928 even echoing (albeit vaguely) a certain je ne sais quoi in the distant hint of Tomasoic Pantera.
The superiority of the 928 (any 928 bar the original feebleness of the 'Series Asthmatique') was simply immense, I fear to report.
However, they were both denizens of a less short-arsed era.
Perhaps being shorter of stature, I may not have been tall enough to truly appreciate the Grecian architecture of the XJS but from where I stood, it was Brothers Grimm grotesque. Like many, I almost fooled myself into believing it was almost good-looking in an anti-art way but no, duped I was not.
928? I did afford myself the opportunity to drive one, a 1985 tomato hued gargoyle which again, I convinced myself was Muira-esque in the headlamp and hot-rod frenched light of rear but after nearly crushing myself with the weight of the door and feeling every one of it's porcine pounds hurling towards the horizon, I fell totally out of synch with it's hoary intentions and the decider was the arrogance of the seller who, from his black beleathered bachelor pad, advised that it was in a totally different league to the Corvette of same vintage I had already driven and become intoxicated by.
He was right of course, the Porsche was in a mechanically and constructive higher league but left me colder than a day old rice pudding left in a fridge and it was the lantern-jawed, bellowing, lighter fabricated Corvette that engaged, seduced and ultimately robbed me of my money. Do I regret it? Find me the rewind button and it would play exactly the same way.
928? I did afford myself the opportunity to drive one, a 1985 tomato hued gargoyle which again, I convinced myself was Muira-esque in the headlamp and hot-rod frenched light of rear but after nearly crushing myself with the weight of the door and feeling every one of it's porcine pounds hurling towards the horizon, I fell totally out of synch with it's hoary intentions and the decider was the arrogance of the seller who, from his black beleathered bachelor pad, advised that it was in a totally different league to the Corvette of same vintage I had already driven and become intoxicated by.
He was right of course, the Porsche was in a mechanically and constructive higher league but left me colder than a day old rice pudding left in a fridge and it was the lantern-jawed, bellowing, lighter fabricated Corvette that engaged, seduced and ultimately robbed me of my money. Do I regret it? Find me the rewind button and it would play exactly the same way.
Good to see that after a couple of weeks of the new forum we are heading for our first ruck
Now DeR this TWR nonsense, these are traitorous words. Let’s cut to the chase, cars with the full TWR mechanical makeover comprising a gas flowed head and alike put out in the region of 400 nags, since when has that ever been a bad thing? These engines had been fettled by Alan Scott who also developed the engine for both the European touring car and World Sports Car campaigns making them very rapid pieces of kit even by today’s standards. I grant you the body kit was very much of the period though and far more Miami Vice than Mulsanne
A TWR S gave you a genuine race winning pedigree and since when has that ever been a bad thing? We do after all like to harp on about such things when it comes to our Nazi engined slot cars.
Looks? Well if you don’t like them well there is little I can do to change that except to say that to see a good clean car today looks like a damn good way of spending 5 grand to me.
And let’s not forget that for those of a patriotic persuasion these Jags truly are one of the last bastions of all British motoring, no Uncle Henry in these fine steeds
Now DeR this TWR nonsense, these are traitorous words. Let’s cut to the chase, cars with the full TWR mechanical makeover comprising a gas flowed head and alike put out in the region of 400 nags, since when has that ever been a bad thing? These engines had been fettled by Alan Scott who also developed the engine for both the European touring car and World Sports Car campaigns making them very rapid pieces of kit even by today’s standards. I grant you the body kit was very much of the period though and far more Miami Vice than Mulsanne
A TWR S gave you a genuine race winning pedigree and since when has that ever been a bad thing? We do after all like to harp on about such things when it comes to our Nazi engined slot cars.
Looks? Well if you don’t like them well there is little I can do to change that except to say that to see a good clean car today looks like a damn good way of spending 5 grand to me.
And let’s not forget that for those of a patriotic persuasion these Jags truly are one of the last bastions of all British motoring, no Uncle Henry in these fine steeds
Lus1fer - one of the golden rules of 928 seekage is to initially realise that most of the cheap 928s will be complete bow-wows.
This is especially true of the older cars and I lost count of how many truly appalling S and S2 variants I drove before finally landing a filly of fettle fine.
Hugely expensive cars in real terms when new and the definitive unmaintained supercar in the making to be sure, many went to ruin at the hands of owners simply not prepared to shell out for the requisite servicing.
In light of this and contrary to your surprising liking for the Yanker (assuming it was a contemporary model rather than one of the latter day, sometime- establishment supercar slayers), one can take some heed of the raft of favourable reviews spanning some 16 years at which point I have to insist on the 928's general pre-eminence as a contender for ultimate mid-80s uber GT.
Rob, forgive me re the TWR thing: I in no way sought to decry the mechanical advantages of Tom & Co.
The body kits were just, as you say, too Tubbs & whatsisface but anything that could salvage such an otherwise risible performer must be a good thing.
I must say, I quite like the idea of that company who take a boggo S, restore the bodywork and interior to 'as new' but crucially, overhaul the suspension to yield a transport worthy of supporting the finest turbine ever to grace an engine bay (I'll give it that, the old V12 would shame a Lexus V8 at tickover, into a embarassed clatter of shambolic Trabantism.)
This is especially true of the older cars and I lost count of how many truly appalling S and S2 variants I drove before finally landing a filly of fettle fine.
Hugely expensive cars in real terms when new and the definitive unmaintained supercar in the making to be sure, many went to ruin at the hands of owners simply not prepared to shell out for the requisite servicing.
In light of this and contrary to your surprising liking for the Yanker (assuming it was a contemporary model rather than one of the latter day, sometime- establishment supercar slayers), one can take some heed of the raft of favourable reviews spanning some 16 years at which point I have to insist on the 928's general pre-eminence as a contender for ultimate mid-80s uber GT.
Rob, forgive me re the TWR thing: I in no way sought to decry the mechanical advantages of Tom & Co.
The body kits were just, as you say, too Tubbs & whatsisface but anything that could salvage such an otherwise risible performer must be a good thing.
I must say, I quite like the idea of that company who take a boggo S, restore the bodywork and interior to 'as new' but crucially, overhaul the suspension to yield a transport worthy of supporting the finest turbine ever to grace an engine bay (I'll give it that, the old V12 would shame a Lexus V8 at tickover, into a embarassed clatter of shambolic Trabantism.)
Now that more like it DeR, the S personifies mellifluous motoring to a generation of Albion’s motorites.
From one who lives in the home of Greene King brewing, there is nothing that has ever escaped their premises as smooth a Jag V12, come to think of it there haven’t made any thing as smooth as a BMC A. These leviathans lie close to the very essence of all that is Britannia and to the 928, Gotterdammerung.
As I recall it a particular party piece of the 928 was a lack of head room for the old noggin. Many eons ago ‘Baker Senior’ had the first demonstrator 928 from the Colchester dealer, an inspiring cocktail of telephone dial wheels and tapered check pattern seats but ultimately way to corpulent. Keen to address the paucity in the fleet of foot department I recall an early 928 S coming back to the redoubt and much muttering and grumbling ensued as the new electric seat arrangements made it a damn tight fir for somebody over 6’3”
None the less to think that the evolution of the 928 was curtailed in favour of a SUV is a jolly sad state of affairs indeed.
Now then, lets ratchet this thread up a bit, lets hear the bidding for a Maserati Kyalami. To those who are fond of the big GT principle these chargers can be yours today for a book of green shield stamps and a half of mild. The tasty quad cam Maserati eight pot up front, modest looks but none the less purposeful and far less likely to bring the Holland & Hollands out than a Ferrari 400
From one who lives in the home of Greene King brewing, there is nothing that has ever escaped their premises as smooth a Jag V12, come to think of it there haven’t made any thing as smooth as a BMC A. These leviathans lie close to the very essence of all that is Britannia and to the 928, Gotterdammerung.
As I recall it a particular party piece of the 928 was a lack of head room for the old noggin. Many eons ago ‘Baker Senior’ had the first demonstrator 928 from the Colchester dealer, an inspiring cocktail of telephone dial wheels and tapered check pattern seats but ultimately way to corpulent. Keen to address the paucity in the fleet of foot department I recall an early 928 S coming back to the redoubt and much muttering and grumbling ensued as the new electric seat arrangements made it a damn tight fir for somebody over 6’3”
None the less to think that the evolution of the 928 was curtailed in favour of a SUV is a jolly sad state of affairs indeed.
Now then, lets ratchet this thread up a bit, lets hear the bidding for a Maserati Kyalami. To those who are fond of the big GT principle these chargers can be yours today for a book of green shield stamps and a half of mild. The tasty quad cam Maserati eight pot up front, modest looks but none the less purposeful and far less likely to bring the Holland & Hollands out than a Ferrari 400
LuS1fer said:
v8thunder said:
LuS1fer said:
Vauxhall Firenza - a car begging for a stock V8.
Steady on there. Muscle car is a big tag to bear. Capri 1300 a muscle car? Best the Capri managed was the limited availability RS3100 and that was less than 150bhp. The Capri 3000E only had about 135bhp and had no brakes. Firenza made (I think)136bhp in HP form but even in Sport guise was a wheezing under-carbed 2.3 bleating out about 110bhp and the Magnum was the same but with lots more luxury weight to tote round. The Rapier was a 1750cc Holbay tuned engine and I think made about 100bhp, the Avenger Tiger used the same engine as did the Hunter GLS and the Ventora was the most strangled 3.3 in history (bar the American Ford 3.3 in the Mustang III)and the RS2000 used a Cortina engine. I don't think any one counts as a muscle car where torque rather than ultimate output made even the "strangled by emissions" 70's and 80's cars seem powerful even if they weren't.
They were, however, credible semi-sports cars that handled well for their era (outhandling the so-called sports cars from MG and Triumph)but in general, they were cars that put genuine 100mph performance in reach of more people. I think the first muscle car worthy of the tag was the Rover SD1 Vitesse.
The complete stock Vauxhall Magnum and Firenza suspensiom gear, which had proven success in saloon car racing at the time was utilised by Jensen in the Jensen Healey (1972 - 1976). They put into the car the 1973cc Lotus 907 engine which was itself a development from the Vauxhall slant four unit and is the same engine as was used by Lotus in the Elite and Eclat models. The 907 engine in the Jensen Healey produced 140bhp as standard and the engine and can be tuned to produce in excess of 200bhp.
Performance figures for the Jensen Healey were quite remakable for a car of that period and the car was given great acclaim by road testers and motoring journalists at the time. It had a 0-60 time of 7.5secs and a top speed of 120mph, still respectable figures even by todays standards . Compare this to the other similar offerings of the time such as the MGB and Triumph Spitfire.
Unfortunately only around 10,000 Healeys were made and many went to the US. Initial reliability problems with the then underdeveloped Lotus engine deterred many potential customers meant that the car never really achieved its full potential. They are now are fairly rare sight on the roads today.
The cars aesthetics are a matter of taste and the quality of the panel fit leaves much to be desired, but dynamically they are unquestionably superior to the much more popular MGB.
The Jensen Healey is IMHO a much undervalued classic.
Now, does anyone want to buy mine?
>> Edited by sparkythecat on Monday 3rd January 11:47
>> Edited by sparkythecat on Monday 3rd January 11:51
maserati bora is one of the best cars ever built but the general public are (thankfully) quite unaware of what it is. in a dark blue colour, it looks almost stealthy.
the gordon keeble is a fantastic car as is the Facel Vega II (Facel does get quite a lot of coverage in classic mags though)
The Ginetta g15 is capable of beating an Elan round a track but 'only' has an imp engine- respect is due, and it's a fearsomely pretty little car. watching this tiny, pretty car on a hillclimb seems a bit improbable, especially when the noise as the imp engine comes on for 12,500rpm. fantastic cars.
fiat dino saloon is a lovely thing with the ferrari dino v8 in a sharp italian saloon body. (mafia boss in the original Italian Job drives one)
the original v-tec CRX is now approaching classic status and avoids a lot of the stigma of its peers such as the renault 5 turbo, 205 gti etc. slightly slow, low geared steering is the main negative point, but otherwise touching greatness.
the 80's prelude (4WS) is hugely under-rated as is the later one, the 2.2 vtec is lovely. maybe not quite a classic yet, but i'd term it as 'yesterday's hero'.
lancia beta coupe is fabulous, but i would imagine actually finding one would be tricky. shame, as they're rather nice.
an early 80s 528 BMW would be a great family classic, sharp 80s styling, good build quality, plenty of power and plenty of oversteer!
a merc 450 6.9 would also be good fun. very stealthy, but steady 130mph would be no problem for it. wouldn't fancy it if things (like a gearbox) went bang though.
the gordon keeble is a fantastic car as is the Facel Vega II (Facel does get quite a lot of coverage in classic mags though)
The Ginetta g15 is capable of beating an Elan round a track but 'only' has an imp engine- respect is due, and it's a fearsomely pretty little car. watching this tiny, pretty car on a hillclimb seems a bit improbable, especially when the noise as the imp engine comes on for 12,500rpm. fantastic cars.
fiat dino saloon is a lovely thing with the ferrari dino v8 in a sharp italian saloon body. (mafia boss in the original Italian Job drives one)
the original v-tec CRX is now approaching classic status and avoids a lot of the stigma of its peers such as the renault 5 turbo, 205 gti etc. slightly slow, low geared steering is the main negative point, but otherwise touching greatness.
the 80's prelude (4WS) is hugely under-rated as is the later one, the 2.2 vtec is lovely. maybe not quite a classic yet, but i'd term it as 'yesterday's hero'.
lancia beta coupe is fabulous, but i would imagine actually finding one would be tricky. shame, as they're rather nice.
an early 80s 528 BMW would be a great family classic, sharp 80s styling, good build quality, plenty of power and plenty of oversteer!
a merc 450 6.9 would also be good fun. very stealthy, but steady 130mph would be no problem for it. wouldn't fancy it if things (like a gearbox) went bang though.
I loved the Maserati Bora. I recall the original road test where Motor compared speedo readings with actual speed. I believe speedos are not allowed to under-read by more than 10% so manufacturers always make them over-read. Motor concluded that the Maserati speedo wasn't so much inaccurate as the biggest liar they'd ever seen. Still hit amazing speeds for the time though.
I'm definately au fait with the idea of getting a Fiat X1/9 1500 as a first car in the summer, for several reasons:
Firstly, being designed, as it was, by Bertone in 1969, then 'productionised' in 1973 and updated in 1977, it has the privledge to have been styled alongside some of the greatest mid-engined sports car to come out of that design house at that time. The bodywork has strong hints of Lancia Stratos, Ferrari 308GT4, Lamborghinis Urraco and Silhouette and the Lancia Carabo concept car. The '80s examples I'd be looking at have strong overtones of small Lamborghini Jalpa.
Secondly, it's very practical as well as tremendous fun. People think Smarts are practical - well this has a more sporting layout, it's cheaper and has more boot space. You can take the roof off but as it's a targa your head won't get blown off and you don't have to suffer a leaky hood in the rain. It does 30-35 mpg round town and 40 mpg on the motorway.
Thirdly, you can put a Fiat Uno Turbo engine in it.
Firstly, being designed, as it was, by Bertone in 1969, then 'productionised' in 1973 and updated in 1977, it has the privledge to have been styled alongside some of the greatest mid-engined sports car to come out of that design house at that time. The bodywork has strong hints of Lancia Stratos, Ferrari 308GT4, Lamborghinis Urraco and Silhouette and the Lancia Carabo concept car. The '80s examples I'd be looking at have strong overtones of small Lamborghini Jalpa.
Secondly, it's very practical as well as tremendous fun. People think Smarts are practical - well this has a more sporting layout, it's cheaper and has more boot space. You can take the roof off but as it's a targa your head won't get blown off and you don't have to suffer a leaky hood in the rain. It does 30-35 mpg round town and 40 mpg on the motorway.
Thirdly, you can put a Fiat Uno Turbo engine in it.
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