Met Police Jaguar S Types
Discussion
P5BNij said:
A (very!) brief glimpse of a black Police S-Type at 4m 30sec in this 1968 'Look At Life' film...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb6STA5eHI8&t=...
Victor ? going through Market Place in Kingston https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb6STA5eHI8&t=...
(now all pedestrianised and closed off to traffic, but I can remember still be able to drive through there in the early 80's)Interesting that its on b/w plates, could be E reg, so one of the NVB ***E batch if so.
Mickey mouse lights, as usual for outer beat of an outer Div area car.
Looks like no WO sitting in it, and just a driver from the film.
That will be "Victor 2", Kingston's R/T car. It certainly looks like one of the NVB***E Jaguars to me, too, but I cannot make out the numbers, despite me blowing up the image as far as possible. It clearly has the roof mounted floodlights, but, as I have said before, these were not always fitted on the outer division Area (R/T) Cars. In the "Policeman" recruiting film of 1969, filmed largely in Kingston, "Victor 2" is SUU412F, a black Jaguar S-Type, which I would expect to have the roof-mounted lamps, but not in that case.
aeropilot said:
Victor ? going through Market Place in Kingston (now all pedestrianised and closed off to traffic, but I can remember still be able to drive through there in the early 80's)
That's a trip down memory lane - thanks. (now all pedestrianised and closed off to traffic, but I can remember still be able to drive through there in the early 80's)
The Boots store in that historic building on the corner had a fantastic staircase inside. I had a Saturday job in the High Street in 1975/76.
Developments on KYU419D. The DVLA have issued me with a shiny new V5C, after some toing and froing with photographs, particularly of the chassis plate, which shows all of the relevant vehicle numbers. I was perfectly happy for them to send an inspector out to verify the car's identity, but I think that this is now only done when there is some doubt. As the car had a V5 in the past, then the DVLA already had a record of it, so all they had to do was satisfy themselves that mine was the same car. The vehicle had been "de-registered", due to the fact that it had been untaxed since 1st April 1982. That is nearly 42 years! Registered new to the Met in December 1966 , it was a little less than 16 years old when it was taken off the road. This is consistent with the information told to me by the son of the late owner.
The car's fate will be decided in the spring. Some parts will come from it for the continuing restoration of SUU480F, but I think that with a current V5C, it stands a better chance of finding the dedicated, skilful and highly solvent new owner it certainly deserves.
The car's fate will be decided in the spring. Some parts will come from it for the continuing restoration of SUU480F, but I think that with a current V5C, it stands a better chance of finding the dedicated, skilful and highly solvent new owner it certainly deserves.
uk66fastback said:
The same Dart up again for auction yesterday at the Imperial War Museum at Duxford, having obviously not sold in Buxton in November …Dart
More on poor old KYU419D;
We (eldest son Jim and myself) spent the whole of yesterday (13th April) working on this old girl. The idea was to remove the manual gearbox and overdrive by lowering the front subframe and then taking the engine and 'box out together as a unit from beneath the car. This is easier than attempting to split the two by leaving the engine in place. When I say the "whole" of yesterday, I certainly mean it.
When attempting to work on a car which has stood in damp conditions for forty-two years, it is wise to assume that every nut, bolt and screw will fight for it's right to stay in situ until the bitter end, or, in reality, when you apply the angle grinder. What was not ground off, snapped off rather than cooperate with the spanners or sockets.
But that was not the worst of it. Despite owning this car for six whole months, this was the first time that I had the opportunity to crawl all over and indeed underneath it. What I found has convinced me that the car was a bit of a "resin rocket" even before it was laid up all those decades ago.
The underside is a combination of ferric oxide and Isopon P38, held together with some underseal. The bodywork is much the same, but with several layers of black and white paint doing the job of the underseal. Removing the subframe exposed the front chassis rails for the first time in many years. Interestingly, the nearside rail is in a better condition than the offside. The opposite from what you normally find on a UK car. I say "better" simply because it is merely rotten, while the offside has dissolved along around fourteen inches of it's length, all around where the subframe mounts onto the body, it is utterly absent. The sills are little better. Imagine opening a large bag of crisps, standing on it, and then pouring the contents onto the floor. Times that by fifty, and you have what was left on Jim's driveway, by the time we were done working.
Dirty, disheartened and very tired, we called it a day, but not before placing the front subframe back under the car and reconnecting the steering, so the car can be moved when required.
The crowning turd in the water pipe, was when we then discovered that the overdrive casing was damaged beyond repair the lower mount being snapped off, probably many years ago.
We have had better days. Anybody wanna buy an old police car?
We (eldest son Jim and myself) spent the whole of yesterday (13th April) working on this old girl. The idea was to remove the manual gearbox and overdrive by lowering the front subframe and then taking the engine and 'box out together as a unit from beneath the car. This is easier than attempting to split the two by leaving the engine in place. When I say the "whole" of yesterday, I certainly mean it.
When attempting to work on a car which has stood in damp conditions for forty-two years, it is wise to assume that every nut, bolt and screw will fight for it's right to stay in situ until the bitter end, or, in reality, when you apply the angle grinder. What was not ground off, snapped off rather than cooperate with the spanners or sockets.
But that was not the worst of it. Despite owning this car for six whole months, this was the first time that I had the opportunity to crawl all over and indeed underneath it. What I found has convinced me that the car was a bit of a "resin rocket" even before it was laid up all those decades ago.
The underside is a combination of ferric oxide and Isopon P38, held together with some underseal. The bodywork is much the same, but with several layers of black and white paint doing the job of the underseal. Removing the subframe exposed the front chassis rails for the first time in many years. Interestingly, the nearside rail is in a better condition than the offside. The opposite from what you normally find on a UK car. I say "better" simply because it is merely rotten, while the offside has dissolved along around fourteen inches of it's length, all around where the subframe mounts onto the body, it is utterly absent. The sills are little better. Imagine opening a large bag of crisps, standing on it, and then pouring the contents onto the floor. Times that by fifty, and you have what was left on Jim's driveway, by the time we were done working.
Dirty, disheartened and very tired, we called it a day, but not before placing the front subframe back under the car and reconnecting the steering, so the car can be moved when required.
The crowning turd in the water pipe, was when we then discovered that the overdrive casing was damaged beyond repair the lower mount being snapped off, probably many years ago.
We have had better days. Anybody wanna buy an old police car?
Edited by Minsterjagman on Sunday 14th April 10:50
Edited by Minsterjagman on Sunday 14th April 12:19
Edited by Minsterjagman on Friday 25th October 15:20
Well, great to hear from a relative of the first private owner. Was/is he James Harris of Waltham Abbey in Essex? I have the VE60 green logbook showing him as acquiring the car on 15th February 1971, just after it was decommissioned from police service at the end of 1970. I also have a cassette tape recording of him talking about the car, made by Roger Smith, shortly after he bought it in 1992. Mr Harris was also able to give the green logbook to Roger, reuniting it with the car after many years. It is most unusual to have original documentation with a vehicle, particularly as it shows the first owner as "The Receiver for the Metropolitan Police District, New Scotland Yard, Broadway SW1" which adds a great deal to the history of this significant police Jaguar.
The restoration is ongoing, but did suffer a setback two weeks ago, when the rear brakes decided to stick on during its first long run in my ownership. These will be attended to when I change the differential unit this summer, if summer ever arrives, that is.....
The restoration is ongoing, but did suffer a setback two weeks ago, when the rear brakes decided to stick on during its first long run in my ownership. These will be attended to when I change the differential unit this summer, if summer ever arrives, that is.....
KYU419D has been sold, but I very much doubt if it will be restored. There was no interest shown in the car by any informed buyers, only scrappers and parts scavengers. Further examination of the bodyshell had shown that the "B"-pillar on the offside was no longer connected to the sill structure at at all, the base of the pillar having rotted away completely, making the shell unsafe. Having removed all the police-specific parts for SUU480F, the remains were collected on a transporter. I suspect that the buyer will salvage what is still of value, and scrap the rest. Not what I wanted to happen, and a defeat for the preservation movement. I do feel that I have blood (oil?) on my hands, but I have to remind myself that you cannot save them all. I blame what has happened to this car on my failure to win the lottery during the last ten months. Just for interest, we had a quote to completely restore KYU419D from a chap from Southern Classics in Twickenham. He worked on Jaguar restorations with Jim until about six years ago, and really knows his subject. He gave the car a detailed examination. A full professional restoration to "as new", £150,000. To a good useable standard, over £100,000. Value when completed, no more than £30,000 at best, and the market has gone down considerably since then! Not that most people would pay for every job to be done professionally, but I do know when I am out of my depth, both in terms of restoration and financially.
The gearbox, propshaft, differential, handbrake lever, fire extinguisher bracket and left and right dashboard will all find their way into SUU480F in due course. This has been delayed by some family issues and a nasty dose of covid, which has left me with no energy to tackle any jobs at all. Hopefully, this will pass.
One car gone, but many parts of it will live on in another.
The gearbox, propshaft, differential, handbrake lever, fire extinguisher bracket and left and right dashboard will all find their way into SUU480F in due course. This has been delayed by some family issues and a nasty dose of covid, which has left me with no energy to tackle any jobs at all. Hopefully, this will pass.
One car gone, but many parts of it will live on in another.
Progress on SUU480F has been slow, but it does now have the correct Met-spec handbrake lever fitted! The more immediate problem that needed addressing was of the engine running hot after about thirty minutes of driving. The block has now been flushed, an aluminium radiator fitted along with a "Revotec" electric cooling fan system. I have yet to properly test this setup, but hopefully, this will cure the overheating, probably caused by sediment build-up after thirty years of sedentary wedding use. I have also replaced the spare tyre, which was worn to illegality, cleaned the spare wheel, which was filthy, and sourced a period-correct toolkit, which fits neatly within the spare wheel.
This brings me to my next point; were these cars supplied to the Met with toolkits or not? I really do not know, but have included this rather expensive item just in case. The Met were penny-pinching to the extreme when it came to these Jaguars. I have been told that there were "150 differences" between a Met-spec car and a civilian one by some experts on the subject, and "over 300" by others. What qualifies as a "difference" is hard to quantify. If the seats are different, does each feature count, then multiplied by the number of seats? I cannot get near the 150 or 300 figures from my own experience. Jaguar supplied the cars, modified to order, then they were further adapted by M.R.D. (Main Repair Depot) at Northolt, according to the role in which they were intended to perform.
The definite differences, I will attempt to list, just in case that there is someone else out there, as sad as me, who would like to know.
For a start, as far as I can tell, all cars were supplied as 3.4 S-Types, EXCEPT NVB348 and 349E, which appear to have been supplied new as 3.8-engined vehicles. Both of these were Traffic cars. As engines were replaced, which was often, then they were occasionally up-engined to 3.8, on a seemingly random basis. Ernie Jupp's Area Car, WGK448G received a 3.8 as a last replacement, prior to disposal.
The differences that I have been able to positively identify are;-
All seats supplied in dark blue "Ambla" trim, with different-pattern upholstery.
No armrests on front or rear seats.
No polished wood anywhere in the interior. All wood painted satin black.
No tachometer (revolution counter).
Speedometer placed on left of steering column.
No map pockets or arm rests on front door panels.
No arm rests or ashtrays on rear door panels.
No glovebox door.
No centre console beneath parcel shelf.
Central instrument panel vinyl-covered, with no polished wood.
No slide-out tray beneath central instrument panel.
No "F" (Fog) position on light switch.
Heating/ventilation controls on right of steering column below dashboard.
Glovebox and speedometer panels vinyl-covered.
No glovebox light, hole for same blanked off.
Guard on handbrake lever, to prevent accidental release.
All cars fitted with "Dana" 4.09 limited- slip differential unit, irrespective of transmission type.
No "L" (Lockup), or "P" (Park) positions on automatic gear selector.
No "Intermediate Speed Hold" on automatics fitted with the Borg Warner DG250 gearbox.
No overdrive on manual cars.
Twin breather pipes on differential backplate.
Positive-earth high-output alternator (necessary to power valve radio).
One foglamp only, fitted to nearside. Offside fitted with dummy grille.
No rim embellishers fitted to road wheels, hubcaps only.
Bracket under centre of bonnet for fitting of airhorns. (Not used, but never deleted from specification).
Blue "Lucas" electrical box fitted to offside boot lid support bracket. Opinion divided as to Purpose; to dim or flash rear lights???
No "leaping cat" Jaguar mascot.
Longer one-piece chrome strip fitted to centre of bonnet to cover holes meant to mount above-mentioned mascot.
As far as I can tell at this stage of research and restoration, that is about it, but, as ever, I stand to be corrected. There may well be those out there in Pistonheadland, who may be able to add to this list, and there may be things that I have forgotten to include. MRD also carried out numerous further modifications to these cars, but they depended on whether the car was intended for Traffic Patrol, divisional Area Car use, Driving School, Special Branch or "Q-Car" duty.
If the point of many of these modifications was to save money, as opposed to making them more suitable as police cars, then it seems that the plan backfired. I have been told that Jaguar actually charged the Met more for each police car than they did for a standard-specification model. I cannot confirm this, but, if true, then it seems that little has changed in the realm of public finance in the last sixty years or so.
This brings me to my next point; were these cars supplied to the Met with toolkits or not? I really do not know, but have included this rather expensive item just in case. The Met were penny-pinching to the extreme when it came to these Jaguars. I have been told that there were "150 differences" between a Met-spec car and a civilian one by some experts on the subject, and "over 300" by others. What qualifies as a "difference" is hard to quantify. If the seats are different, does each feature count, then multiplied by the number of seats? I cannot get near the 150 or 300 figures from my own experience. Jaguar supplied the cars, modified to order, then they were further adapted by M.R.D. (Main Repair Depot) at Northolt, according to the role in which they were intended to perform.
The definite differences, I will attempt to list, just in case that there is someone else out there, as sad as me, who would like to know.
For a start, as far as I can tell, all cars were supplied as 3.4 S-Types, EXCEPT NVB348 and 349E, which appear to have been supplied new as 3.8-engined vehicles. Both of these were Traffic cars. As engines were replaced, which was often, then they were occasionally up-engined to 3.8, on a seemingly random basis. Ernie Jupp's Area Car, WGK448G received a 3.8 as a last replacement, prior to disposal.
The differences that I have been able to positively identify are;-
All seats supplied in dark blue "Ambla" trim, with different-pattern upholstery.
No armrests on front or rear seats.
No polished wood anywhere in the interior. All wood painted satin black.
No tachometer (revolution counter).
Speedometer placed on left of steering column.
No map pockets or arm rests on front door panels.
No arm rests or ashtrays on rear door panels.
No glovebox door.
No centre console beneath parcel shelf.
Central instrument panel vinyl-covered, with no polished wood.
No slide-out tray beneath central instrument panel.
No "F" (Fog) position on light switch.
Heating/ventilation controls on right of steering column below dashboard.
Glovebox and speedometer panels vinyl-covered.
No glovebox light, hole for same blanked off.
Guard on handbrake lever, to prevent accidental release.
All cars fitted with "Dana" 4.09 limited- slip differential unit, irrespective of transmission type.
No "L" (Lockup), or "P" (Park) positions on automatic gear selector.
No "Intermediate Speed Hold" on automatics fitted with the Borg Warner DG250 gearbox.
No overdrive on manual cars.
Twin breather pipes on differential backplate.
Positive-earth high-output alternator (necessary to power valve radio).
One foglamp only, fitted to nearside. Offside fitted with dummy grille.
No rim embellishers fitted to road wheels, hubcaps only.
Bracket under centre of bonnet for fitting of airhorns. (Not used, but never deleted from specification).
Blue "Lucas" electrical box fitted to offside boot lid support bracket. Opinion divided as to Purpose; to dim or flash rear lights???
No "leaping cat" Jaguar mascot.
Longer one-piece chrome strip fitted to centre of bonnet to cover holes meant to mount above-mentioned mascot.
As far as I can tell at this stage of research and restoration, that is about it, but, as ever, I stand to be corrected. There may well be those out there in Pistonheadland, who may be able to add to this list, and there may be things that I have forgotten to include. MRD also carried out numerous further modifications to these cars, but they depended on whether the car was intended for Traffic Patrol, divisional Area Car use, Driving School, Special Branch or "Q-Car" duty.
If the point of many of these modifications was to save money, as opposed to making them more suitable as police cars, then it seems that the plan backfired. I have been told that Jaguar actually charged the Met more for each police car than they did for a standard-specification model. I cannot confirm this, but, if true, then it seems that little has changed in the realm of public finance in the last sixty years or so.
I've only just stumbled onto this topic, I'll go back and start from the beginning when I get a mo', but the last two or three pages have been an interesting read. Great respect for you Mr Minsterjagman, you seem to have taken on a fascinating project, even if it looks like it might have been a little challenging on the bank account front.
I've been a Mark 2 driver for around 40 years, - although the S-Type is a bit of an unknown quantity to me, I've read much, but not had any driving experience.
Interesting to hear about the quote from SC for £120K! I'm guessing that's from Steve, - he does know his stuff and does quality work, but he can be pricey. Probably a function of their location and 'you get what you pay for'. Sadly, genuine experts are getting pretty thin on the ground now.
Also interesting to see the S in Kingston Market Place, I also remember it looking like that. Teddington Studios (Thames TV) being nearby, Kingston used to feature in a lot of 60 minute specials. IIRC there is a car chase, that goes round and round and round... in, I think, Man In A Suitcase. I'm not sure about the cars used though, that fact is right back on the biological hard disc and will probably crop up in the middle of the night sometime.
Good luck!
I've been a Mark 2 driver for around 40 years, - although the S-Type is a bit of an unknown quantity to me, I've read much, but not had any driving experience.
Interesting to hear about the quote from SC for £120K! I'm guessing that's from Steve, - he does know his stuff and does quality work, but he can be pricey. Probably a function of their location and 'you get what you pay for'. Sadly, genuine experts are getting pretty thin on the ground now.
Also interesting to see the S in Kingston Market Place, I also remember it looking like that. Teddington Studios (Thames TV) being nearby, Kingston used to feature in a lot of 60 minute specials. IIRC there is a car chase, that goes round and round and round... in, I think, Man In A Suitcase. I'm not sure about the cars used though, that fact is right back on the biological hard disc and will probably crop up in the middle of the night sometime.
Good luck!
Yes, indeed, Merton Park Studios made numerous television series from the mid 1950s up to the mid 1960s. These provide us with fascinating historical glimpses, mostly of the areas near where the studios, now sadly demolished, once stood. My wife was a WPC at Wimbledon for a number of years, and she often recognises locations used in the filming of Scotland Yard, Edgar Wallace Mysteries, or Gideon's Way, despite the fact that she served in that area many years after these dramas were made. The police cars are a bit too early to be Jaguars, starting off with the Wolseley 6/80, then 6/90 and finally 6/99. Interestingly, the Wolseley 6/99s used in Gideon's Way seem to be genuine Met cars, retired by then. The main giveaway, other than the registration numbers, is the Austin Westminster-type grey-painted metal dashboards in these cars, instead of the wooden ones fitted to normal Wolseley models. Another, earlier example of attempted cost-cutting by the Met? It seems likely.
Edited by Minsterjagman on Saturday 26th October 06:01
Thanks for the update yesterday, and the extra info on the differences between a civvie production car and the Met spec cars, some of which I knew and many of which I didn't.
I was talking to the owner of WGK 470G at Goodwood Revival last month, he's ex-Met as well, from talking to him, and I mentioned this thread to see if he knew about it, but he didn't. I would guess you know him? He's always got his car on display at Revival.
That's an interesting bit of info about the 6/99's as well regarding the dash. Did the Met continue this theme with the later 6/110 cars as well?
My Dad had a soft spot for the 6/99's, most likely as he spent more time as an area car WO in the 6/99 than other cars.
My first ever car ride at a few days old was in the back of Xray 3 when Mum and I were picked up from the maternity hospital, which from memory of what Dad told me years later, was one of the last 6/99's on X as the 6/110's had already been introduced.
Interesting you mention MRD at Rowdell Rd., as I remember my Dad arranged a visit there for me, as I was coming up for leaving school, as I was looking at places for apprenticeships, and Dad was still in The Job then, and so I guess it was winter of 78/79 when I visited, I know that for a reason I can't now remember there wasn't going to be any apprenticeship scheme by the time I was going to be leaving school, which was a shame as MRD was only a 20 min walk from home for me at the time.
I was talking to the owner of WGK 470G at Goodwood Revival last month, he's ex-Met as well, from talking to him, and I mentioned this thread to see if he knew about it, but he didn't. I would guess you know him? He's always got his car on display at Revival.
That's an interesting bit of info about the 6/99's as well regarding the dash. Did the Met continue this theme with the later 6/110 cars as well?
My Dad had a soft spot for the 6/99's, most likely as he spent more time as an area car WO in the 6/99 than other cars.
My first ever car ride at a few days old was in the back of Xray 3 when Mum and I were picked up from the maternity hospital, which from memory of what Dad told me years later, was one of the last 6/99's on X as the 6/110's had already been introduced.
Interesting you mention MRD at Rowdell Rd., as I remember my Dad arranged a visit there for me, as I was coming up for leaving school, as I was looking at places for apprenticeships, and Dad was still in The Job then, and so I guess it was winter of 78/79 when I visited, I know that for a reason I can't now remember there wasn't going to be any apprenticeship scheme by the time I was going to be leaving school, which was a shame as MRD was only a 20 min walk from home for me at the time.
I have never met the owner of WGK470G, or even seen his S-Type, but I do know his name, that he was a Met Traffic Officer, and that he is a great enthusiast, who has owned quite a few ex-Met vehicles. I think that he currently owns not just the Jaguar, but an SD1, an early-fifties Morris station van, and a Wolseley 6/110. He would be just the chap to confirm the dashboard arrangement on the later Wolseley R/T and Traffic Cars. I am no expert on Wolseleys. I have recently re-joined Police Car U.K. which has some owners of ex-Met vehicles, but I do not know whether or not he is a member.
I would certainly like to meet this person, as, when researching these cars prior to my first purchase, he was the only owner of a service-condition S-Type that I was not able to speak with.
I only ever visited MRD once in my entire service. It was on one of my driving courses. I was impressed by the sheer size of the place. It could not have been later than early in 1984. I had never seen so many Rover SD1s together in one place, nor, I expect, will I ever again. I wonder if it is all still there, or has the Met contracted fleet maintenance out to some fly-by-night private company, just like they have with everything else?
I would certainly like to meet this person, as, when researching these cars prior to my first purchase, he was the only owner of a service-condition S-Type that I was not able to speak with.
I only ever visited MRD once in my entire service. It was on one of my driving courses. I was impressed by the sheer size of the place. It could not have been later than early in 1984. I had never seen so many Rover SD1s together in one place, nor, I expect, will I ever again. I wonder if it is all still there, or has the Met contracted fleet maintenance out to some fly-by-night private company, just like they have with everything else?
Edited by Minsterjagman on Sunday 27th October 07:49
Minsterjagman said:
I have never met the owner of WGK470G, or even seen his S-Type, but I do know his name, that he was a Met Traffic Officer, and that he is a great enthusiast, who has owned quite a few ex-Met vehicles. I think that he currently owns not just the Jaguar, but an SD1, an early-fifties Morris station van, and a Wolseley 6/110.
Yes, he was telling me that his 6/110 is ex-F Div, and attended the scene of the Shepherds Bush Police murders at Braybrook St., which had a significance to me, as my late father had served with one of the 3 officers killed. I would guess his car is thus one of the batch of CYK ***C reg cars.For Goodwood Revival, he always puts a set of fake plates on WGK as its supposed to be pre-66, so the G plate would look out of place at the event.
Here it is on a set of fake B suffix plates taken back in 2014. (I've just noticed that its got a leaping cat fitted in this photo as well, which I'm sure has since been removed as per correct spec?)
Minsterjagman said:
I only ever visited MRD once in my entire service. It was on one of my driving courses. I was impressed by the sheer size of the place. It could not have been later than early in 1984. I had never seen so many Rover SD1s together in one place, nor, I expect, will I ever again. I wonder if it is all still there, or has the Met contracted fleet maintenance out to some fly-by-night private company, just like they have with everything else?
Its still there I believe, and in use, although may have been reduced in size, although I've not been past it for more than a decade since moving out of London. When I visited with my Dad 45 years ago, there were lots of early SDI2600's in there, a few Triumph 2500's and a big batch of some of the last P6's that were being de-mobbed of service kit ready for auctioning off, plus loads of Mk.2 Escort panda's, Sherpa vans, Land Rover's etc.etc.Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff