Ultra rare mk 1 Escort at upcoming auction
Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
That is exactly my point. It's a unsourced story. It appears to be a myth.
I'm not so sure. Italy, having some communist elements may well have had a deal brokered between Finmechannica and the USSR. It's very possible. f
k me, we've strayed a long way from a Mk 1 Escort. 
aeropilot said:
Everything from that era rusted like crazy.
Most designs of the time were not great, with loads of rust traps in the underbody areas, there was zero factory rust protection, build quality was not great either. Have you seen how rusty a 70's Rolls Silver Shadow can be..!!
Most designs of the time were not great, with loads of rust traps in the underbody areas, there was zero factory rust protection, build quality was not great either. Have you seen how rusty a 70's Rolls Silver Shadow can be..!!
Nail on head really
I do remember one of my friend’s RS2000s cracking around the strut reinforcement plates on the front inner wings at around 8 years old down to rust. Had to be welded up
Similarly another friend’s Strada 105TC failing an MOT at about 5 years old because of significant corrosion in a few places. Alfasuds could be a bit ropey .....but I don’t remember my friend’s 1300GT Junior being particularly rusty and that must have been at least a decade old. Similarly some Mk1 Escorts had bitten the dust at that age. Depends on the car and how it was looked after to a certain extent I’d say
vpr said:
Lancia brand was killed in this country due to serious rust issues
It's hard to discover the full picture, but a bit of reading around the subject suggests that Lancia's withdrawal was caused not so much by the cars as by a hostile press campaign, and a poor response to that campaign by Lancia. The story is an object lesson for businesses in how not to handle reputation management, which was then a concept in its infancy. Nowadays reputation management is an industry. Ford has always tended to be been good at reputation management, apart perhaps from in its response to the Ralph Nader onslaught in the USA.
BL used to be good at PR and marketing. Indeed one of BL's problems was that in the Stokes era BL was run by ad men rather than engineers. But BR also felt the power of a hostile press, and once the press get stuck into something, pub legends build rapidly.
Back on Ford Escorts, I'd be interested to hear from aficionados which ones had the best engines, as I am very ill informed on the subject of Ford four cylinder engines of that era. I know a tiny bit about the V6s, but not a lot.
Breadvan72 said:
Back on Ford Escorts, I'd be interested to hear from aficionados which ones had the best engines, as I am very ill informed on the subject of Ford four cylinder engines of that era. I know a tiny bit about the V6s, but not a lot.
Best by what criteria?There were only 2 engines (outside of the Lotus TC and Cosworth BDA in the Twink and RS1600/RS1800 homolgation specials)
Even then, the OHC Pinto was only fitted in the RS2000's and later RS Mexico in 1600cc version.
Every other Mk.1/Mk.2 Escort had a version of the Ford Crossflow.
Breadvan72 said:
I am such an ignoramus on matters Ford that I get Crossflows and Pintos mixed up. I had better hit Wikipedia.
Crossflow was cam in block OHV, carb on left hand side of engine as you look into engine bay, exhaust on right hand side (hence cross flow)This is the crossflow in a Mex
OHC Pinto, was carb and exhaust on opposite side with cam in head design. Much bigger physically as well.
This is the Pinto in a RS2000
Pinto = overhead cam (camshaft in the head operating directly on the valvetrain)
Crossflow = overhead valve (camshaft in the block with pushrods to the valvetrain)
As mentioned the Mk1 only had a 2.0 litre Pinto in the RS2, the Mk2 used it in the RS2 and in the Mexico as a 1.6 litre. The crossflow went in all the other "non-special" models.
<<edit>> dammit - Aero's answer beat me, and is much higher quality...
Crossflow = overhead valve (camshaft in the block with pushrods to the valvetrain)
As mentioned the Mk1 only had a 2.0 litre Pinto in the RS2, the Mk2 used it in the RS2 and in the Mexico as a 1.6 litre. The crossflow went in all the other "non-special" models.
<<edit>> dammit - Aero's answer beat me, and is much higher quality...
Edited by generationx on Thursday 6th August 08:54
RUST, my pet hate on any mechanical machine, let alone cars.
Think you find that most cars of that period that were properly wax oiled from new [Ziebarting especially] still survive largely intact, my last Mk 2 rally car that was originally a 1600 sport was, when I stripped the shell, under the Ziebarting the metal was like new.
My current Mk 1, the shell is VERY solid and mostly original, but not its original Type 49 shell, that sadly long departed the earth in a bag of rust no doubt, still I’d rather have a period good condition shell rather than one that’s had most panels replaced.
Engines, IMO for an Escort road car from a point of view of reliability, ease of maintenance, parts costs etc I would say a mildly tuned Pinto, around 135 bhp on a single carb would be the best option, it will go well, have a nice torque band, not too bad on fuel, and be cheap to run.
Think you find that most cars of that period that were properly wax oiled from new [Ziebarting especially] still survive largely intact, my last Mk 2 rally car that was originally a 1600 sport was, when I stripped the shell, under the Ziebarting the metal was like new.
My current Mk 1, the shell is VERY solid and mostly original, but not its original Type 49 shell, that sadly long departed the earth in a bag of rust no doubt, still I’d rather have a period good condition shell rather than one that’s had most panels replaced.
Engines, IMO for an Escort road car from a point of view of reliability, ease of maintenance, parts costs etc I would say a mildly tuned Pinto, around 135 bhp on a single carb would be the best option, it will go well, have a nice torque band, not too bad on fuel, and be cheap to run.
Mark A S said:
RUST, my pet hate on any mechanical machine, let alone cars.
Think you find that most cars of that period that were properly wax oiled from new [Ziebarting especially] still survive largely intact, my last Mk 2 rally car that was originally a 1600 sport was, when I stripped the shell, under the Ziebarting the metal was like new.
My current Mk 1, the shell is VERY solid and mostly original, but not its original Type 49 shell, that sadly long departed the earth in a bag of rust no doubt, still I’d rather have a period good condition shell rather than one that’s had most panels replaced.
Engines, IMO for an Escort road car from a point of view of reliability, ease of maintenance, parts costs etc I would say a mildly tuned Pinto, around 135 bhp on a single carb would be the best option, it will go well, have a nice torque band, not too bad on fuel, and be cheap to run.
Absolutely.Think you find that most cars of that period that were properly wax oiled from new [Ziebarting especially] still survive largely intact, my last Mk 2 rally car that was originally a 1600 sport was, when I stripped the shell, under the Ziebarting the metal was like new.
My current Mk 1, the shell is VERY solid and mostly original, but not its original Type 49 shell, that sadly long departed the earth in a bag of rust no doubt, still I’d rather have a period good condition shell rather than one that’s had most panels replaced.
Engines, IMO for an Escort road car from a point of view of reliability, ease of maintenance, parts costs etc I would say a mildly tuned Pinto, around 135 bhp on a single carb would be the best option, it will go well, have a nice torque band, not too bad on fuel, and be cheap to run.
Even back in the 80's when I was mucking about with these, the best cars I drove back then were original looked after examples, all had been Ziebarted from new by first owners and looked after since with original shells, panels and paint even.
Agree with the mild Pinto as well, two of the best RS2000's I drove were just such spec, mild head and cam mods, 38DGAS carb, and about 130-135hp.....also, they still outwardly looked standard engines.
Certainly the Mk2s were rust traps, especially leading edges of the front wings and the bottom of the spare wheel well. My first car was a Mk2 1.6 Ghia (check me out with my fancy ways...) which had clearly had at least new front wings despite being only 12 years old. It was eventually written off in an accident which revealed a huge amount of hidden/bodged-over rot. One of my RS2s was ferociously rotten too, despite having been "restored". My mate the MOT guy nearly wet himself laughing when he first went in with The Screwdriver Of Truth.
Many thanks for the info re 1970s Ford four cylinder engines.
Those helpful replies have enabled me to tick the "learn a new thing every single day" box , and before 9AM too.
RUST and Ziebart etc: I agree! My current Lancia had that treatment in 1978, and was, I suspect, garaged for a good part of its life. Thus it survived over two decades on the wet and windy Isle of Man, where salty storms blow in from the west on a regular basis, and on its return to the UK just needed a bit of mild patching up here and there.
I had a Triumph that was similar - Ziebarted, then garaged. Not very rusty.
By contrast, I once mistakenly bought a 1970 ish Daimler that was as rusty as a rusty thing winning the rusty prize on International being rusty day, and could only have obtained its recent MOTs through extreme optimism and/or folding money. Ditto a 1990 Range Rover that I smoked around in for a year.
I am currently having some very, very foolish thoughts about a rusty Princess, but, as noted above, they were, for their time, fairly rust resistant, so it may not be (quite) as rusty as I fear.
Those helpful replies have enabled me to tick the "learn a new thing every single day" box , and before 9AM too.
RUST and Ziebart etc: I agree! My current Lancia had that treatment in 1978, and was, I suspect, garaged for a good part of its life. Thus it survived over two decades on the wet and windy Isle of Man, where salty storms blow in from the west on a regular basis, and on its return to the UK just needed a bit of mild patching up here and there.
I had a Triumph that was similar - Ziebarted, then garaged. Not very rusty.
By contrast, I once mistakenly bought a 1970 ish Daimler that was as rusty as a rusty thing winning the rusty prize on International being rusty day, and could only have obtained its recent MOTs through extreme optimism and/or folding money. Ditto a 1990 Range Rover that I smoked around in for a year.
I am currently having some very, very foolish thoughts about a rusty Princess, but, as noted above, they were, for their time, fairly rust resistant, so it may not be (quite) as rusty as I fear.
Breadvan72 said:
I am currently having some very, very foolish thoughts about a rusty Princess, but, as noted above, they were, for their time, fairly rust resistant, so it may not be (quite) as rusty as I fear.
Brave man.Drove one once.....must have been about 1981/2.........utterly horrible thing.
Emotional reasons .... to do with my late father, with what I was doing in 1980 and 1981, and with what my late father's granddaughter might be doing in 2023/2024. It makes no rational sense, but emotions are emotions.
I really really, really don't want a Princess. But I also really, really, really do.
I really really, really don't want a Princess. But I also really, really, really do.
Breadvan72 said:
Emotional reasons .... to do with my late father, with what I was doing in 1980 and 1981, and with what my late father's granddaughter might be doing in 2023/2024. It makes no rational sense, but emotions are emotions.
I really really, really don't want a Princess. But I also really, really, really do.
I get that I really really, really don't want a Princess. But I also really, really, really do.
Breadvan72 said:
It's hard to discover the full picture, but a bit of reading around the subject suggests that Lancia's withdrawal was caused not so much by the cars as by a hostile press campaign, and a poor response to that campaign by Lancia. The story is an object lesson for businesses in how not to handle reputation management, which was then a concept in its infancy. Nowadays reputation management is an industry.
Ford has always tended to be been good at reputation management, apart perhaps from in its response to the Ralph Nader onslaught in the USA.
BL used to be good at PR and marketing. Indeed one of BL's problems was that in the Stokes era BL was run by ad men rather than engineers. But BR also felt the power of a hostile press, and once the press get stuck into something, pub legends build rapidly.
Back on Ford Escorts, I'd be interested to hear from aficionados which ones had the best engines, as I am very ill informed on the subject of Ford four cylinder engines of that era. I know a tiny bit about the V6s, but not a lot.
The rust story centred on the Beta, I believe. A combination of poor rust proofing and inadequate spot welding around the front suspension mounting, mainly radius arms. Ford has always tended to be been good at reputation management, apart perhaps from in its response to the Ralph Nader onslaught in the USA.
BL used to be good at PR and marketing. Indeed one of BL's problems was that in the Stokes era BL was run by ad men rather than engineers. But BR also felt the power of a hostile press, and once the press get stuck into something, pub legends build rapidly.
Back on Ford Escorts, I'd be interested to hear from aficionados which ones had the best engines, as I am very ill informed on the subject of Ford four cylinder engines of that era. I know a tiny bit about the V6s, but not a lot.
Caused the front wheel to get a life of its own causing a few crashes with fairly high profile people, including fatalities.
Lancia didn't cover themselves in glory, being less than open and honest. The press duly stuck the boot in. Rust was the simple answer.
The stuff I have read suggests that early Beta Berlinas had serious problems with engine mounts/sub frames, but stories of engines falling out whilst driving appear to be unverified.
The suspension mount killing celebs is a new one to me. Who died?
Later on, Betas were as rusty or as unrusty as Escorts (in other words, some were mega rusty, some were not) but Lancia hugely cocked up the PR, and got such a beasting in the press that they decided to jack it in and fled the UK.
The suspension mount killing celebs is a new one to me. Who died?
Later on, Betas were as rusty or as unrusty as Escorts (in other words, some were mega rusty, some were not) but Lancia hugely cocked up the PR, and got such a beasting in the press that they decided to jack it in and fled the UK.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 6th August 10:52
Breadvan72 said:
The stuff I have read suggests that early Beta Berlinas had serious problems with engine mounts/sub frames, but stories of engines falling out whilst driving appear to be unverified.
The suspension mount killing celebs is a new one to me. Who died?
Later on, Betas were as rusty or as unrusty as Escorts (in other words, some were mega rusty, some were not) but Lancia hugely cocked up the PR, and got such a beasting in the press that they decided to jack it in and fled the UK.
A friend of my fathers, a solicitor in Leamington Spa, lost his wife when a wheel tucked underneath and the car lost an argument with an HGV. The suspension mount killing celebs is a new one to me. Who died?
Later on, Betas were as rusty or as unrusty as Escorts (in other words, some were mega rusty, some were not) but Lancia hugely cocked up the PR, and got such a beasting in the press that they decided to jack it in and fled the UK.
Edited by Breadvan72 on Thursday 6th August 10:52
There was an out of court settlement involving a few similar crashes.
The solicitor later bought an XJ12 that achieved 3mpg with a bit of enthusiasm.
OK. So what actually happened:
Betas suffered corrosion in the (floor mounted) front subframe's rear mountings. No engines fell out, no crashes, no fatalities. You would get a creaking noise under power on/off on bad ones. However, unlike just about everyone else, Lancia acted honourably and recalled anything over three years old to be checked. Their mistake was to not make this an official recall but do it on the sly.
If it was still good, the Lancia dealer would clean it up and fire some Waxoyl type stuff into the box section. If it was rusty, Lancia condemned the car, offered you full book value against a new Lancia and yours would go off to a scrapyard in Somerset to to crushed. Those who weren't there say it was only Series 1 cars; it wasn't. There were 1977/8 cars in there of all types when the campaign ended in 1983. Saloons, HPE's, the lot.
Again, Lancia tried to do it on the sly and they were getting cars trucked in overnight but some NIMBY turd got wind of this and wrote to That's Life upon which that buck toothed hag Esther Rancid got involved with that other bastion of truth, the Daily Mirror running all kinds of 'my engine fell out' bullst stories.
The Beta could rot, but no worse than a Cortina. What Lancia should have done is just repair the cars FOC. The repair itself wasn't difficult.
Betas suffered corrosion in the (floor mounted) front subframe's rear mountings. No engines fell out, no crashes, no fatalities. You would get a creaking noise under power on/off on bad ones. However, unlike just about everyone else, Lancia acted honourably and recalled anything over three years old to be checked. Their mistake was to not make this an official recall but do it on the sly.
If it was still good, the Lancia dealer would clean it up and fire some Waxoyl type stuff into the box section. If it was rusty, Lancia condemned the car, offered you full book value against a new Lancia and yours would go off to a scrapyard in Somerset to to crushed. Those who weren't there say it was only Series 1 cars; it wasn't. There were 1977/8 cars in there of all types when the campaign ended in 1983. Saloons, HPE's, the lot.
Again, Lancia tried to do it on the sly and they were getting cars trucked in overnight but some NIMBY turd got wind of this and wrote to That's Life upon which that buck toothed hag Esther Rancid got involved with that other bastion of truth, the Daily Mirror running all kinds of 'my engine fell out' bulls
t stories. The Beta could rot, but no worse than a Cortina. What Lancia should have done is just repair the cars FOC. The repair itself wasn't difficult.
eldar said:
A friend of my fathers, a solicitor in Leamington Spa, lost his wife when a wheel tucked underneath and the car lost an argument with an HGV.
There was an out of court settlement involving a few similar crashes.
The solicitor later bought an XJ12 that achieved 3mpg with a bit of enthusiasm.
That was the Alfasud. The rear section of the front wishbone would rot through causing a front wheel to go astray. Alfa officially recalled all Suds in 1985 to have new wishbones fitted. There was an out of court settlement involving a few similar crashes.
The solicitor later bought an XJ12 that achieved 3mpg with a bit of enthusiasm.
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