RE: Lotus Type 119
Tuesday 19th March 2002
Lotus Type 119
New racer will debut at Goodwood Festival of Speed
Discussion
well if you look at it that way... zero emissions(tree huggers rejoice!), zero warranty costs(money saved for Lotus), zero business for the dealers(won't need them buy your ride at the top of the Goodwood Hill), sublet the manufacturing to somewhere in France(make everyone redundant--Save more money), and Lotus can close the factory--more money saved--and open it up for R/C car racing--10 quid entry fee of course. I just would like to know the costs of these 'graduates' little excursion into the automotive industry. Come on people these exercises are for university especially when you lost 40 MILLION POUNDS last year. Maybe they won the lottery. who knows.....One question....will this ride be made available in the US? I can see a great market in San Francisco with all the hills...Lotus marketing and sales are you listening? ooooh, now I can see a new engineering job...figure how to get the little buggers back up again!
what's next...mmmm lets see they have already done the EXTREME(big hit guys)...how about paper air planes? maybe jump ropes made of extruded aluminum? how about jacks made of carbon fibre and aluminum balls(who needs rubber it bounces to much) or better yet board games! I can see it now...a polished aluminum chess board with all of Lotus' previous models...I guess they might forget one...The Lotus Extinct. Because that is where they are headed if they keep up with krap like this.......
what's next...mmmm lets see they have already done the EXTREME(big hit guys)...how about paper air planes? maybe jump ropes made of extruded aluminum? how about jacks made of carbon fibre and aluminum balls(who needs rubber it bounces to much) or better yet board games! I can see it now...a polished aluminum chess board with all of Lotus' previous models...I guess they might forget one...The Lotus Extinct. Because that is where they are headed if they keep up with krap like this.......
Ah, I see the Luddites are in force:-) Where better to try out new designs than on a soapbox challenge where no one will take the mickey if it doesn't go well? And if they can get 60 mph from an engineless vehicle then that kind of efficiency harnessed to a motor will be fantastic. Whats all this 'University' only business? Surely University would train you up for a job? And bringing Lotus debts into this is daft. The soapbox car will cost a fraction of the free publicity it will create. Lotus could build a megabucks 400 bhp exige and it won't take the hill climb record from an F1 car and therefore not generate anymore interest in Lotus. Hurrah for Lotus being adventurous. Are the moneybags manufacturers entering? Or are they perfecting the silicon damping on their door handles, yawn!
That word 'graduate' struck a raw nerve!
It's the usual. ANYTHING/BODY connected with Lotus and it can enter - soapbox derby what have you, next it will be a pushchair race.
Yet when applying to get a Ginetta G4 in the act at either the Festival or the Revival meeting we were told by the organisers "that the Ginetta G4 is not appropriate". Why you may well ask? Probably because it would win something!!
And in case anyone thinks of saying it is 'not appropriate' here's a little background the organisers know but apparently don't want you to know.
Nick Grace was a young graduate (a 'real' meaning of the word) in mechanical engineering in 1962. He is the late husband of Caroline, who ironically might be flying Nick's Spitfire over the Goodwood events) which he built single handedly from two lorry loads of parts in tea chests, and then flew! Successfully too, becoming a celebrity and even flying the plane in the TV programme A Piece of Cake along with a German ME109 which he also restored and flew).
Nick raced a Ginetta G4 in the early 60s including at Goodwood. He didn't just win, he took the Goodwood lap record. This is what John Haynes (of the Haynes publishing empire) racing a Lotus 7 said at the time, after having a test in Grace's G4:
"In my opinion the roadholding of the Ginetta G4 is better than the Lotus... I well remember spinning off at Madgwick at Goodwood in the Lotus 7 while leading the up to a 1000cc class in 63. Nick was on my tail pushing hard, and went on to win. I would definitely award the Ginetta better balance and higher cornering power." Not only did Grace win the class he took the lap record. To prove it was no flash in the pan he returned the next month to Goodwood and won outright the up to 1150cc class.
I have been to most Goodwood festivals and revivals and you see every car (and soapbox) imaginable at the Goodwood events, oddballs, one-offs, you name it... except the G4. Strange, eh?
It's the usual. ANYTHING/BODY connected with Lotus and it can enter - soapbox derby what have you, next it will be a pushchair race.
Yet when applying to get a Ginetta G4 in the act at either the Festival or the Revival meeting we were told by the organisers "that the Ginetta G4 is not appropriate". Why you may well ask? Probably because it would win something!!
And in case anyone thinks of saying it is 'not appropriate' here's a little background the organisers know but apparently don't want you to know.
Nick Grace was a young graduate (a 'real' meaning of the word) in mechanical engineering in 1962. He is the late husband of Caroline, who ironically might be flying Nick's Spitfire over the Goodwood events) which he built single handedly from two lorry loads of parts in tea chests, and then flew! Successfully too, becoming a celebrity and even flying the plane in the TV programme A Piece of Cake along with a German ME109 which he also restored and flew).
Nick raced a Ginetta G4 in the early 60s including at Goodwood. He didn't just win, he took the Goodwood lap record. This is what John Haynes (of the Haynes publishing empire) racing a Lotus 7 said at the time, after having a test in Grace's G4:
"In my opinion the roadholding of the Ginetta G4 is better than the Lotus... I well remember spinning off at Madgwick at Goodwood in the Lotus 7 while leading the up to a 1000cc class in 63. Nick was on my tail pushing hard, and went on to win. I would definitely award the Ginetta better balance and higher cornering power." Not only did Grace win the class he took the lap record. To prove it was no flash in the pan he returned the next month to Goodwood and won outright the up to 1150cc class.
I have been to most Goodwood festivals and revivals and you see every car (and soapbox) imaginable at the Goodwood events, oddballs, one-offs, you name it... except the G4. Strange, eh?
Listen up, stupids.
Lotus needs trained engineers.
This is a miniature whole vehicle project except for the lack of an engine.
The best way to learn is to go out on a limb and make some mistakes. This way, any mistakes don't hurt Lotus.
The team will have blagged some freebies from suppliers to keep costs down.
Cost to Lotus: peanuts.
Benefit to team: experience
Benefit to Lotus: experienced young engineers
Bonus to Lotus: publicity
Lotus needs trained engineers.
This is a miniature whole vehicle project except for the lack of an engine.
The best way to learn is to go out on a limb and make some mistakes. This way, any mistakes don't hurt Lotus.
The team will have blagged some freebies from suppliers to keep costs down.
Cost to Lotus: peanuts.
Benefit to team: experience
Benefit to Lotus: experienced young engineers
Bonus to Lotus: publicity
'Listen up, stupids.'
NICE! MUST BE ON THE PROJECT!
'Lotus needs trained engineers' WHY? DID THE MAKE THE GOOD ONES REDUNDANT? PRACTICE EXERCISES LIKE THESE ARE FOR UNIVERSITY. AT LEAST DO SOMETHING RELEVANT, I.E. ENGINEER A DOOR HANDLE, SUSPENSION CONTROL ARM, SOMETHING YOU CAN BLOODY SELL.
'This is a miniature whole vehicle project except for the lack of an engine' WONDERFUL...THEN SOMEONE TELL ME THE COSTS OF THIS MINUSCULE LITTLE PROJECT. THEY HAVE ALL OF LOTUS' RESOURCES AT THEIR HANDS. ARE WE JUST TRYING TO FIND BUSY WORK? WHAT'S NEXT SKATEBOARDS?
'The best way to learn is to go out on a limb and make some mistake'. EXACTLY, COLIN CHAPMAN'S BELIEF...DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE TWICE IF YOU DO CLEAN OUT YOUR DESK. HENCE, EXTREME, LAMNDSHARK, SHOPPING CARTS, 340R...NEW ONES STILL ON SALE FOR BLOW OUT PRICES, ETC. HOW ABOUT LAST YEARS 40 MILLION POUND MISTAKE?
'The team will have blagged some freebies from suppliers to keep costs down' LIST THE FREEBIES AND THE SUPPLIERS CONTACTS.
Cost to Lotus: peanuts. I'LL BELIEVE IT WHEN I SEE THE FINAL COST WHEN THIS LITTLE PROJECT IS DONE. SINCE THEY ARE GOING TO DO IT THEY BETTER WIN!
'Benefit to team: experience' TRUE BUT WHY NOT DO AN EXERCISE THAT HAS MORE RELEVANCE. ELECTRIC CAR?
'Benefit to Lotus: experienced young engineers' OK YOU GET THIS ONE.
'Bonus to Lotus: publicity' YEAH, SO IS GOING OUT OF BUSINESS. NEXT PROJECT....TYPE 120 LOTUS EXTINCT!
>> Edited by lotusbmw on Wednesday 20th March 16:03
>> Edited by lotusbmw on Wednesday 20th March 16:09
>> Edited by lotusbmw on Friday 22 March 01:39
NICE! MUST BE ON THE PROJECT!
'Lotus needs trained engineers' WHY? DID THE MAKE THE GOOD ONES REDUNDANT? PRACTICE EXERCISES LIKE THESE ARE FOR UNIVERSITY. AT LEAST DO SOMETHING RELEVANT, I.E. ENGINEER A DOOR HANDLE, SUSPENSION CONTROL ARM, SOMETHING YOU CAN BLOODY SELL.
'This is a miniature whole vehicle project except for the lack of an engine' WONDERFUL...THEN SOMEONE TELL ME THE COSTS OF THIS MINUSCULE LITTLE PROJECT. THEY HAVE ALL OF LOTUS' RESOURCES AT THEIR HANDS. ARE WE JUST TRYING TO FIND BUSY WORK? WHAT'S NEXT SKATEBOARDS?
'The best way to learn is to go out on a limb and make some mistake'. EXACTLY, COLIN CHAPMAN'S BELIEF...DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE TWICE IF YOU DO CLEAN OUT YOUR DESK. HENCE, EXTREME, LAMNDSHARK, SHOPPING CARTS, 340R...NEW ONES STILL ON SALE FOR BLOW OUT PRICES, ETC. HOW ABOUT LAST YEARS 40 MILLION POUND MISTAKE?
'The team will have blagged some freebies from suppliers to keep costs down' LIST THE FREEBIES AND THE SUPPLIERS CONTACTS.
Cost to Lotus: peanuts. I'LL BELIEVE IT WHEN I SEE THE FINAL COST WHEN THIS LITTLE PROJECT IS DONE. SINCE THEY ARE GOING TO DO IT THEY BETTER WIN!
'Benefit to team: experience' TRUE BUT WHY NOT DO AN EXERCISE THAT HAS MORE RELEVANCE. ELECTRIC CAR?
'Benefit to Lotus: experienced young engineers' OK YOU GET THIS ONE.
'Bonus to Lotus: publicity' YEAH, SO IS GOING OUT OF BUSINESS. NEXT PROJECT....TYPE 120 LOTUS EXTINCT!
>> Edited by lotusbmw on Wednesday 20th March 16:03
>> Edited by lotusbmw on Wednesday 20th March 16:09
>> Edited by lotusbmw on Friday 22 March 01:39
Lotus need trained engineers because people leave even when there aren't redundancies. As for 'relevance', it's comparatively easy to learn to do components on a 'real' project. I expect these guys have had or will have their chance.
Industry rightly guards its cost data, so you could call it part of the training not to tell all. However, I bet it's less than people might think. After all, if universities can afford to join in the fun...
I expect having all Lotus' resources means access to every department (good training) not the help of the entire company.
Anyboby else got anything positive to add?
Industry rightly guards its cost data, so you could call it part of the training not to tell all. However, I bet it's less than people might think. After all, if universities can afford to join in the fun...
I expect having all Lotus' resources means access to every department (good training) not the help of the entire company.
Anyboby else got anything positive to add?
lotusbmw - stop shouting please. The rules for Goodwood (from their web site) include a maximum vehicle cost of a grand - not too much for the opportunity to advertise your cars at the Festival of Speed.
Have you ever been in company threatened with redundancy? Everyone tries to find another job - the good guys leave regardless of whether they get made redundant.
The type 119 looks like a laugh and gets free positive publicity at a bad time for Lotus - worth 0.000025% of last years loss surely.
Have you ever been in company threatened with redundancy? Everyone tries to find another job - the good guys leave regardless of whether they get made redundant.
The type 119 looks like a laugh and gets free positive publicity at a bad time for Lotus - worth 0.000025% of last years loss surely.
It strange people slagging off a good publicity idea. It costs Lotus very little and does encourage engineers to think different.
If you think I'm talking B**l*cks then think about this. Japan manufactures gets and pays its young engineers to think of radical designs for transport. No rally, no real publicity just an exercise in engineering. This has gone on for years and now look, some of the best performance, reliability, and economy cars and bikes have come out of that country.
In fact everybody p*ssed themselves at Japan and their "sily little motorbikes" in the 60's and 70's.... the britsh bike industry has gone very quiet now.
Good for Lotus. Perhaps a little "proton influence" for the good.
If you think I'm talking B**l*cks then think about this. Japan manufactures gets and pays its young engineers to think of radical designs for transport. No rally, no real publicity just an exercise in engineering. This has gone on for years and now look, some of the best performance, reliability, and economy cars and bikes have come out of that country.
In fact everybody p*ssed themselves at Japan and their "sily little motorbikes" in the 60's and 70's.... the britsh bike industry has gone very quiet now.
Good for Lotus. Perhaps a little "proton influence" for the good.
Don't even consider that Proton would come up with a good idea for Lotus. The fact is that Lotus are nothing more than a status symbol for Proton, they sell their sporty model runabouts in Malaysia by sticking a Lotus badge on the back!
Overall, I think this way of promoting the Lotus name is a fantastic idea. I'll be shouting them support at the Festival of Speed!
Overall, I think this way of promoting the Lotus name is a fantastic idea. I'll be shouting them support at the Festival of Speed!
Off the subject here but seeing as there's so many engineers in training here, answer me this ?
Box cars - is this not a gravity event ?
Whats light weight got to do with it (sorry colin)? or did Isac get it wrong ?
Shouldn't the boys be looking at something that will be a little more slippery in the breeze and low roll resistance ?
Just thought this would be better than picking on what seems to be a good idea and cost SFA, and more constructive effort to help them win it - what great PR then ?
Easier to boost someone up, than to pull them down !
Box cars - is this not a gravity event ?
Whats light weight got to do with it (sorry colin)? or did Isac get it wrong ?
Shouldn't the boys be looking at something that will be a little more slippery in the breeze and low roll resistance ?
Just thought this would be better than picking on what seems to be a good idea and cost SFA, and more constructive effort to help them win it - what great PR then ?
Easier to boost someone up, than to pull them down !
Well Gentlemen. Saying that designs such as this by 'young enginners' is rubbish, is bollocks ! Why? Because it is thought provoking. A thought from one gives a different response in another and he/she might come up with something interesting from it. It gives them a chance to put in practice some ideas that have been going around in their heads to something in real life. It isnt going to cost a lot of money to use some brain power. And the people dont have to be a 'graduate' to be a designer either. Many of you out there have brilliant ideas for automotive design but just dont have the medium to get it out to the world.
I remember as a youngster my friends and I would build up 'trollys' and try to come up with the best design, and entered them in the downhill races in my home town etc etc. Im no 'graduate' but have and can come up with some fine ideas for auto design.
As for 'loosing' 40 million quid, its not money from their bank account, it was in lost sales - doh!
I remember as a youngster my friends and I would build up 'trollys' and try to come up with the best design, and entered them in the downhill races in my home town etc etc. Im no 'graduate' but have and can come up with some fine ideas for auto design.
As for 'loosing' 40 million quid, its not money from their bank account, it was in lost sales - doh!
I met the Lotus graduates at the first practice session at Goodwood.
They are some of the finest young engineers from Britain and Ireland and have invested a lot of time (unpaid and after hours) to hone their skills in various engineering diciplines.
The car is totally over-engineered as such, but what rolls down that hill will a by-product of a much brighter Lotus future.
They are some of the finest young engineers from Britain and Ireland and have invested a lot of time (unpaid and after hours) to hone their skills in various engineering diciplines.
The car is totally over-engineered as such, but what rolls down that hill will a by-product of a much brighter Lotus future.
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