Discussion
I'd say Clanger's prices are about right.
The only thing I'd add is that with S4's you have to draw a distinction between Stromberg and Weber/Dellorto carb'd cars. Rightly or wrongly, Stromberg cars are worth maybe £1500-£2000, and top out a lot lower - I wouldn't expect to pay any more than £17K even for an absolutely concours Stromberg S4. The Stromberg cars can be fickle to tune (the carbs are especially prone to air leaks, parts are scarce, and they suffer quite badly from icing even when you get them right) and can't sensibly be tuned beyond about 130bhp, whereas big valves and QED 420 cams will see an easy and tractable 145-150bhp out of a properly built Weber/Dellorto engine.
The S4 is the poor relation of the 2-seater Elan family all round, unfortunately; S1-S3 cars are worth more because most people see them as a purer, lighter and prettier expression of the concept, and those who do favour the S4 shape tend to go for the Sprint, because of its position as the 'ultimate' Elan (though there's nothing special about the Sprint that you can't easily do to a Weber/Dellorto S4).
The only thing I'd add is that with S4's you have to draw a distinction between Stromberg and Weber/Dellorto carb'd cars. Rightly or wrongly, Stromberg cars are worth maybe £1500-£2000, and top out a lot lower - I wouldn't expect to pay any more than £17K even for an absolutely concours Stromberg S4. The Stromberg cars can be fickle to tune (the carbs are especially prone to air leaks, parts are scarce, and they suffer quite badly from icing even when you get them right) and can't sensibly be tuned beyond about 130bhp, whereas big valves and QED 420 cams will see an easy and tractable 145-150bhp out of a properly built Weber/Dellorto engine.
The S4 is the poor relation of the 2-seater Elan family all round, unfortunately; S1-S3 cars are worth more because most people see them as a purer, lighter and prettier expression of the concept, and those who do favour the S4 shape tend to go for the Sprint, because of its position as the 'ultimate' Elan (though there's nothing special about the Sprint that you can't easily do to a Weber/Dellorto S4).
Edited by Sam_68 on Friday 25th September 17:54
I wouldn't say there is a 'best option'; it depends what you want from the car and what your priorities are.
Some people favour the S3 because they feel it's the best compromise between the purity of the original concept and the development benefits of the later cars; some prefer the S1 because of its rarity, eligibility for historic racing, and because it's the original and purest expression of the concept; some (including myself) prefer the Sprint because its the fastest and most highly developed and looks a tiny bit 'tougher', with the wider tyres and flared wheel arches.
About the only thing you can really say with any degree of certainty is that the Stromberg S4 is generally regarded as the least desirable variant. It would be a toss-up between the S1 and the Sprint for most desirable (excluding the 26R), with values of a mint example of either being fairly similar and the S3 would probably take second place, on average.
The Plus 2 is a much bigger car all round. It's the 'sensible' choice, due to the extra space, it handles equally well (and probably grips better that the 2-seater), but despite what many owners would have you believe (and I've owned both), it's significantly slower than the 2-seater in terms of acceleration and it's not as nimble. It's also even less reliable, 'cos the electrics are a lot more complex and, because the values are significantly lower than the 2-seater, it's more difficult to find an example that's been cherished and had proper money spent on maintenance.
You probably need to try both though: some people feel too exposed (or claustraphobic!) in the 2-seater because it is so much tinier than all modern cars, but can cope with the Plus 2.
Personally, I'd avoid either the Stromberg engine or the 5-speed gearbox on the Plus 2. Some people like the relaxed cruising of the 5-speed, but I find the gearchange is so much nastier than the 4-speed Ford box that it's too high a price to pay, and the reliability of the 5-speed is pretty poor, too.
Edited to add: if you're serious about Elans or Plus 2's, though, you're asking in the wrong place. You need to sign up to LotusElan.net
Some people favour the S3 because they feel it's the best compromise between the purity of the original concept and the development benefits of the later cars; some prefer the S1 because of its rarity, eligibility for historic racing, and because it's the original and purest expression of the concept; some (including myself) prefer the Sprint because its the fastest and most highly developed and looks a tiny bit 'tougher', with the wider tyres and flared wheel arches.
About the only thing you can really say with any degree of certainty is that the Stromberg S4 is generally regarded as the least desirable variant. It would be a toss-up between the S1 and the Sprint for most desirable (excluding the 26R), with values of a mint example of either being fairly similar and the S3 would probably take second place, on average.
The Plus 2 is a much bigger car all round. It's the 'sensible' choice, due to the extra space, it handles equally well (and probably grips better that the 2-seater), but despite what many owners would have you believe (and I've owned both), it's significantly slower than the 2-seater in terms of acceleration and it's not as nimble. It's also even less reliable, 'cos the electrics are a lot more complex and, because the values are significantly lower than the 2-seater, it's more difficult to find an example that's been cherished and had proper money spent on maintenance.
You probably need to try both though: some people feel too exposed (or claustraphobic!) in the 2-seater because it is so much tinier than all modern cars, but can cope with the Plus 2.
Personally, I'd avoid either the Stromberg engine or the 5-speed gearbox on the Plus 2. Some people like the relaxed cruising of the 5-speed, but I find the gearchange is so much nastier than the 4-speed Ford box that it's too high a price to pay, and the reliability of the 5-speed is pretty poor, too.
Edited to add: if you're serious about Elans or Plus 2's, though, you're asking in the wrong place. You need to sign up to LotusElan.net
Edited by Sam_68 on Friday 25th September 17:59
Thanks for that. I did sign up to lotuselan.net a while ago, and had a read through. Elan has been a possible for me for a while, and keep an eye on classifieds in case something jumps out.
Reliability (and rust) are the two things which put me off, given complete lack of mechanical talent! So, interested in what you say about 4 spd gearbox, and electrics in 2+2.
It would have suited me, (or my kids...) to go 2+2, but the more I look the more I'm thinking it's a classic 2 seater DHC or nothing. Also had thoughts of the zytec/spyder route, but now can't really see the point in that. So, it might end up coming to nothing, or maybe a good one pops up at a decent price and I join the AA on a get-you-home policy!
Cheers
Reliability (and rust) are the two things which put me off, given complete lack of mechanical talent! So, interested in what you say about 4 spd gearbox, and electrics in 2+2.
It would have suited me, (or my kids...) to go 2+2, but the more I look the more I'm thinking it's a classic 2 seater DHC or nothing. Also had thoughts of the zytec/spyder route, but now can't really see the point in that. So, it might end up coming to nothing, or maybe a good one pops up at a decent price and I join the AA on a get-you-home policy!
Cheers
You don't need to worry about rust. Virtually all of them have had a replacement chassis by now, most of which will be either galvanised or the powder-coated Spyder spaceframe.
There's no denying that reliability is below average even for a 40-year old car, but it's usually pretty minor stuff (electrical earths, leaking seals and gaskets etc.) and parts prices are pretty cheap. You just need to get into the mindset of regular checks and lots of preventative maintenance.
The Spyder Zetec cars might be running into problems with the current tightening of MOT regulations and registration of 'radically modified' vehicles.
There's no denying that reliability is below average even for a 40-year old car, but it's usually pretty minor stuff (electrical earths, leaking seals and gaskets etc.) and parts prices are pretty cheap. You just need to get into the mindset of regular checks and lots of preventative maintenance.
The Spyder Zetec cars might be running into problems with the current tightening of MOT regulations and registration of 'radically modified' vehicles.
contango said:
Unless you have some mechanical skills or are prepared to learn...
I'd have to agree with that. Best avoided unless you are confident that you have the skills to maintain them yourself, or pockets deep enough to pay a specialist (and I wouldn't trust a non-Classic Lotus Specialist to work on one; they don't take kindly to ham-fisted grease monkeys).
Sam_68 said:
contango said:
Unless you have some mechanical skills or are prepared to learn...
I'd have to agree with that. Best avoided unless you are confident that you have the skills to maintain them yourself, or pockets deep enough to pay a specialist (and I wouldn't trust a non-Classic Lotus Specialist to work on one; they don't take kindly to ham-fisted grease monkeys).
A very sweeping statement........... I have seen so many Lotus horrors over the years carried out by bone headed owners who THINK they know.I have seen just as much recently by reputable Lotus specialists .
When the damage is done,who can you ask who can help ?.
Peter Wheeler, originally an oil rigg specialist managed to guide TVR up till the Russian takeover,does your same theory apply ?
25 years ago would have been correct but not so much now. If most Lotus owners then refused to pay the going rate to the specialists who knew these cars inside out,they won`t now tragically, that`s why so many of the specialists have gone . Great shame, a whole new learning curve starts again
Both cars we restored came well above market value,the stromberg car is an excellent product,parts are not a problem for the strombergs and I`ve never heard of this icing problem. I think that`s pub talk.
The skill is in the build quality and if you cannot pay for the skill, you don`t deserve to own the product.That`s my theory.
RW774 said:
Are all non classis lotus specialists ham fisted grease monkeys then?
There will be exceptions who prove the rule, of course, but it's not such a sweeping generalisation, I don't think.
Anyone who regularly works on 'ordinary' cars tends to become a bit blase about things, so that when they are presented with an Elan, they take liberties that the marginal engineering on the car won't tolerate. So will novice Lotus owners, of course... been there, done that... but you learn from your mistakes more quickly when you live with and maintain the car every day than does a mechanic who finds himself presented with an Elan once every few months and doesn't have to live with the consequences.
There are, of course, classic specialists and race engineers around who have the necessary mechanical sympathy and sensitivity to work on anything, but finding them these days is the tricky bit. As it happens, I live just round the corner from a chap with a garage business who also happens to race a 26R (and assists another local classic racing car specialist), but I can't think of any other non-specialist garage I'd be willing to entrust my Elan to.
RW774 said:
Peter Wheeler, originally an oil rigg specialist managed to guide TVR up till the Russian takeover,does your same theory apply ?
Having owned a Wheeler-generation TVR, I'd say that it pretty much proves my theory. He went from crude oil to crude engineering, in one jump, as far as I'm concerned. My favorite its the chassis tube that's been deliberately 'buckled' to clear the steering rack, but the whole car is a bit of a knuckle-dragger, to be honest.
RW774 said:
parts are not a problem for the strombergs and I`ve never heard of this icing problem. I think that`s pub talk.
And I think you don't know your arse from your elbow. 
I seem to recall you're the same fella who tried to assure us that the Elan's backbone chassis was originally designed for the Elite, so you clearly have some difficulty distinguising the pub talk from the reality, where Lotus are concerned.
I owned a Stromberg Elan for several years and rebuilt it literally down to nut-and-bolt level. I experienced, first hand, the problems of parts supply (they use a number of components that differ from the Strombergs fitted to Triumphs and Saabs and that can be very tricky to source) and since I used the car all year round, I experienced the issue of carburettor icing quite frequently... every time the atmosphere was cool and damp and I drove the car for any distance at sustained speed, in fact.
The US market cars have a complex system of cross-over pipes that use heat from the exhaust manifold to warm the inlet, but the UK cars don't. Neither do they have a water-heated inlet manifold, and the air is ducted straight in from a filter casing with no 'winter' setting, mounted down in the nose of the car. Combine that with a variable choke carb like the Stromberg, that is always giving a relatively high degree of vaccuum (in comparison to fixed-choke carbs like the Webers and Dellortos, where the efficiency of the venturis drops off dramatically when they aren't flowing as much air) and the problem isn't really difficult to understand.
With regard to the Stromberg S4 Elan, I would like to add a few points...
Although they are prone to icing up in cold/damp weather at sustained speeds, this is not really a valid reason to dismiss the car.
I would suggest that most people who run them now, like me, do not use them in the winter months due to salt issues, therefore icing is not really a problem. I have run mine for the last ten years, doing about 5,000 miles per 'summer', and I have never had the carbs ice up, even when driving to Scotland in November.
These carbs are very smooth in power delivery, and do not suffer from the 'flat spot' that Webers have; indeed when the cars were new, some of the factory drivers at Hethel actaully preferred the Stromberg cars for this reason.
I agree that there is an issue regarding the choke setup, mainly as a result of the convoluted route that the cable has to take to reach the back carb. I just have it operating on the front one which seems fine ( but may not be in colder weather of course).
One point to mention is that Stromberg Elans run aproximately 5 degrees hotter than Webers, which may be related to the fuel mixture.
The tickover is sometimes uneven, and not as regular as the Weber cars, and they do not look the part under the bonnet compared to Webers/Dellortos, but overall the Stomberg set up on the S4 works very well apart from in very cold/damp weather.
I agree that they cannot really be tuned as much as a Weber system, but for a standard road car they are absolutely fine.
As far as reliabilty issues are concerned, once set up properly by someone who understands them, they are as reliable as Weber/Dellortos.
Anyway, if the prices for Stromberg Elans are slightly lower, then that would be another reason to consider them !
I do not usually get involved in these sorts of discussions, but in this case I had to 'defend' the case for the Stromberg Elan S4 !
It certainly is not a 'lesser' car because it has these carbs fitted. Anyway, if someone is really that concerned, it is very simple to convert to a Weber setup.
Although they are prone to icing up in cold/damp weather at sustained speeds, this is not really a valid reason to dismiss the car.
I would suggest that most people who run them now, like me, do not use them in the winter months due to salt issues, therefore icing is not really a problem. I have run mine for the last ten years, doing about 5,000 miles per 'summer', and I have never had the carbs ice up, even when driving to Scotland in November.
These carbs are very smooth in power delivery, and do not suffer from the 'flat spot' that Webers have; indeed when the cars were new, some of the factory drivers at Hethel actaully preferred the Stromberg cars for this reason.
I agree that there is an issue regarding the choke setup, mainly as a result of the convoluted route that the cable has to take to reach the back carb. I just have it operating on the front one which seems fine ( but may not be in colder weather of course).
One point to mention is that Stromberg Elans run aproximately 5 degrees hotter than Webers, which may be related to the fuel mixture.
The tickover is sometimes uneven, and not as regular as the Weber cars, and they do not look the part under the bonnet compared to Webers/Dellortos, but overall the Stomberg set up on the S4 works very well apart from in very cold/damp weather.
I agree that they cannot really be tuned as much as a Weber system, but for a standard road car they are absolutely fine.
As far as reliabilty issues are concerned, once set up properly by someone who understands them, they are as reliable as Weber/Dellortos.
Anyway, if the prices for Stromberg Elans are slightly lower, then that would be another reason to consider them !
I do not usually get involved in these sorts of discussions, but in this case I had to 'defend' the case for the Stromberg Elan S4 !
It certainly is not a 'lesser' car because it has these carbs fitted. Anyway, if someone is really that concerned, it is very simple to convert to a Weber setup.
Sam 68, you must be one of the Lotus experts I sopke of in that earlier posting. Seems that even Peter Wheeler fails in your remit of bodgers. It would be polite to show his family some respect,especially as the guy has just passed away, do you not think? It does in my book ,whatever you think of him.
That is correct, I was the fella who spoke of the backbone chassis,the original concept earmarked for the Elite . For your information.The idea of the chassis was to bring down the production costs of Elites . It was management who decided to drop the Elite altogether and develop the The chassis idea for a new product, the Elan.
I stay with what I have said thanks. The S4 stromberg is a good car,certainly usuable everyday even now with the right modifications, 5 speed box , 354 diff.etc. I worked for a Ford/lotus specialist briefly back in the day. I don`t remember icing problems being an issue. Just the carb diaphrams, that was all. You will find the underbonnet temperature and quick warm up never gave a problem here in the UK.Perhaps I was just lucky.
I think you may have read too many internet sites.
As a tip there is no need for swearing insults, that just shows ignorance.
I am happy to discuss these issues further, but anger management is not my strong point.
That is correct, I was the fella who spoke of the backbone chassis,the original concept earmarked for the Elite . For your information.The idea of the chassis was to bring down the production costs of Elites . It was management who decided to drop the Elite altogether and develop the The chassis idea for a new product, the Elan.
I stay with what I have said thanks. The S4 stromberg is a good car,certainly usuable everyday even now with the right modifications, 5 speed box , 354 diff.etc. I worked for a Ford/lotus specialist briefly back in the day. I don`t remember icing problems being an issue. Just the carb diaphrams, that was all. You will find the underbonnet temperature and quick warm up never gave a problem here in the UK.Perhaps I was just lucky.
I think you may have read too many internet sites.
As a tip there is no need for swearing insults, that just shows ignorance.
I am happy to discuss these issues further, but anger management is not my strong point.
Calm down people it`s only a discussion,the story that the backbone chassis was for the Elite is not one I am familiar with,it is at odds with the fact that the Elan originally had a tubular chassis and the pressed steel one came later in the design,they were both shown to Mr Chapman with the costing for each,the cheapest was selected and it progressed from there,I am not saying anyone is wrong,but that is the timeline.
RW774 said:
Seems that even Peter Wheeler fails in your remit of bodgers.
To be fair to Peter Wheeler, he inherited a lot of the engineering underpinning TVR's, and the only significant technical development in his era (the Speed 6 engine - not an overwhelming success, I'm sure you'll agree) was at least substantially the work of a consultant.He produced some very pretty cars, with wonderful interior designs, but technically? Let's not kid ourselves, please...
RW774 said:
For your information.The idea of the chassis was to bring down the production costs of Elites . It was management who decided to drop the Elite altogether and develop the The chassis idea for a new product, the Elan.
For your information, you're wrong. I've heard it direct from the mouth of the guy who designed the Elan backbone chassis (Ron Hickman). As I've previously stated, the Elan was already being developed as a glassfibre monocoque. They were having problems acheiving sufficient stiffness with the open (roadster) construction, so the backbone was developed as an interim measure to allow mechanical development to proceed while they sorted the monocoque, but proved such a cheap and effective solution that they decided to keep it.RW774 said:
The S4 stromberg is a good car
I agree that the S4 Stromberg is a good car. I'm willing to bet that I've driven a lot more miles in one than you have. But whether you like it or not, it is generally recognised as being less desirable than the Weber/Dellorto engine and for that reason alone I couldn't recommend one to someone thinking of buying an Elan for the first time.RW774 said:
...certainly usuable everyday even now with the right modifications, 5 speed box , 354 diff.etc.
I hate the 5 speed box (and I know I'm not alone) - the gearchange is awful and it's not terribly strong. I'd also say that the 3.54 diff is too tall, and that the 3.77 is the best compromise if you want to do a lot of long distance work, but you're entitled to your opinion.RW774 said:
...I don`t remember icing problems being an issue. Just the carb diaphrams, that was all. You will find the underbonnet temperature and quick warm up never gave a problem here in the UK.
Your memory is playing tricks on you, then. It was a well documented problem 'back in the day', too.You will find that the underbonnet temperature makes bugger all difference.
If you actually drive a Stromberg Elan (have you ever actually driven one, apart from brief test drives on customer cars... I'm beginning to have my doubts, for such an 'expert'?) in cool, damp weather for any distance at sustained revs, then stop and put your hand on the carbs, you'll find that they are literally ice cold. How do I know this? Because when my carbs iced up I used to stop for 15 minutes until the heat soak de-frosted them, and I checked the temperature by touch... if you're not careful, they can be so cold that your skin sticks to them.
The problem, as I tried to explain above, its that you have a very efficient, large-diameter duct bringing in cold, damp air from down in the nose, ahead of the radiator, which is then sucked through a very efficient, variable-choke venturi on the carburettors that chills it down a lot further. There is no manifold heating and the only path for heat to reach the carburettors is via the four studs that mount it to the manifold, since there's a nice plastic spacer to insulate the carb from the hot bits of the engine, otherwise.
Edited by Sam_68 on Friday 2nd October 12:52
Okay Sam thanks for the response.
I run a workshop in Sudbury Suffolk. I have worked for many garages in the past from Jaguar ,Ford, Rolls Royce, etc. I`m 52 years old with alot of experience. Show some respect! I`m not some book/ internet related geek.I`m no bighead either but, I`ve been at the sharp end now for some 35 years with a shop full of work in the middle of a reccession ,so I must be doing something right.
I have a long term client, we finished a total rebuild of his S4 stromberg car some 4 years ago. There should be a picture of it on the old `Tour of the workshop` posting recently. The client built the car himself back in 1969 and then proceeded to cover 62K miles before taking it off the road in 1976 with a cracked chassis.He never had a problem with carb Icing when the car was used everyday in all those miles and hasn`t since it returned to the road.
Maybe that problem was restricted to colder climate areas in this country.I can only speak from experience.
There is a pic of a Sprint too which we built from boxes, Hopefully here we have elimated some of the marginal aspects of that car, with the uprated output shafts etc. I doubt if any other shops do it, we had all the components on both cars were crack and ultrasound tested also prior to re-use.I have had upper wishbone arms crack and fail in the past, sending the car off the road(a 2 plus 2. )rear wheel bearing castings crack around the circlip retainer,wheels crack, etc, etc, without all the considering all the normal stuff, handbrake etc. All dealt with, even the age old handbrake issues.
We totally rebuilt the car, nut and bolt. We did put a 5 speed in it, the type 9 conversion from Alan Voights, agreed the old lotus 5 speed is far too marginal with It`s BL based internals. Since the rebuild ,we have covered some 500 miles in shakedown, the customer some 2000 miles. It is still on rubber drive shaft couplings.Yes I know............
The 377 was swapped for a 354, RS 2000 ratio. This works really well with the 5 speed and something the specialists did back in the day.Not so readily available nowadays.
(The customer prefered to keep the dougnuts for the original feel over the alternatives). Agreed the Stromberg car is not as desirable, but neither is the 2 plus 2 sadly . I`m sure I speak for many, who would be proud to own either car, both are underated products berated by the press, due to poor maintenance and even poorer owners( get my drift)
I stand corrected then on the Chassis, I have always been under the impression it was originally for the Elite. My info came from some of the old works team back in the day.I think that was confirmed in a conversation I had with John Whitmore some years back on the Elite . I can`t remember names of the other guys.Too long ago.
Have a good weekend .I`m up the pub(drinking,by the way)
I run a workshop in Sudbury Suffolk. I have worked for many garages in the past from Jaguar ,Ford, Rolls Royce, etc. I`m 52 years old with alot of experience. Show some respect! I`m not some book/ internet related geek.I`m no bighead either but, I`ve been at the sharp end now for some 35 years with a shop full of work in the middle of a reccession ,so I must be doing something right.
I have a long term client, we finished a total rebuild of his S4 stromberg car some 4 years ago. There should be a picture of it on the old `Tour of the workshop` posting recently. The client built the car himself back in 1969 and then proceeded to cover 62K miles before taking it off the road in 1976 with a cracked chassis.He never had a problem with carb Icing when the car was used everyday in all those miles and hasn`t since it returned to the road.
Maybe that problem was restricted to colder climate areas in this country.I can only speak from experience.
There is a pic of a Sprint too which we built from boxes, Hopefully here we have elimated some of the marginal aspects of that car, with the uprated output shafts etc. I doubt if any other shops do it, we had all the components on both cars were crack and ultrasound tested also prior to re-use.I have had upper wishbone arms crack and fail in the past, sending the car off the road(a 2 plus 2. )rear wheel bearing castings crack around the circlip retainer,wheels crack, etc, etc, without all the considering all the normal stuff, handbrake etc. All dealt with, even the age old handbrake issues.
We totally rebuilt the car, nut and bolt. We did put a 5 speed in it, the type 9 conversion from Alan Voights, agreed the old lotus 5 speed is far too marginal with It`s BL based internals. Since the rebuild ,we have covered some 500 miles in shakedown, the customer some 2000 miles. It is still on rubber drive shaft couplings.Yes I know............
The 377 was swapped for a 354, RS 2000 ratio. This works really well with the 5 speed and something the specialists did back in the day.Not so readily available nowadays.
(The customer prefered to keep the dougnuts for the original feel over the alternatives). Agreed the Stromberg car is not as desirable, but neither is the 2 plus 2 sadly . I`m sure I speak for many, who would be proud to own either car, both are underated products berated by the press, due to poor maintenance and even poorer owners( get my drift)
I stand corrected then on the Chassis, I have always been under the impression it was originally for the Elite. My info came from some of the old works team back in the day.I think that was confirmed in a conversation I had with John Whitmore some years back on the Elite . I can`t remember names of the other guys.Too long ago.
Have a good weekend .I`m up the pub(drinking,by the way)
RW774 said:
I`m 52 years old with a lot of experience. Show some respect!
I'm not in the first flush of youth myself. I have owned 4 Elans, the first purchased over 20 years ago, now, and I've been driving and maintaining these cars, mixing with fellow owners in Club Lotus and helping others maintain their cars continuously since then. I have never had any involvement with marques like Jaguar or Rolls Royce; they don't interest me in the slightest and I wouldn't profess to have any knowledge of them whatsoever, but I do know '60's Lotuses.
My specialism used to be racing car suspension and chassis set-up and I was good enough to make part of my living doing that, until my main career became too profitable to justify playing with other people's cars.
I'll show you exactly as much respect as you show me, and more if you get your facts right.
RW744 said:
I`m not some book/internet related geek.
Neither am I, and I think that's where you may be going wrong.
RW744 said:
Maybe that problem was restricted to colder climate areas in this country.
That's possible; I was living in Yorskhire/Lancashire at the time I owned my Stromberg Elan, so suffering a much cooler, damper climate than Suffolk, but I've heard of icing problems on cars living much further afield, so it would surprise me. I think it's more likely that you simply haven't had enough experience or the cars to encounter the conditions under which it occurs.
RW744 said:
I have had upper wishbone arms crack and fail in the past, sending the car off the road(a 2 plus 2)rear wheel bearing castings crack around the circlip retainer,wheels crack, etc, etc,
Forgive me for saying so, but that does kind of prove what I was saying about ham-fisted grease monkeys. If you ran one of these cars yourself, you'd be checking these sorts of components regularly and methodically. I still run rotoflexes myself, incidentally - nothing wrong with them provided you check them regularly and replace them when they start to show signs of cracking.For anyone still reading this thread, other common (but not only
) areas for cracks to develop are the diff torque rod mountings, diff. casing upper mounting arms, chassis fork in the engine bay, upper wishbone mounting pins and suspension turrets. The suspension turrets also tend to get packed with dirt (they're open at the top) and rot out from the inside, and there have been bad batches of vertical links and trunnions that wear very rapidly and have been known to fail. You should be checking these items regularly (like every time you oil the trunnions) ...or paying a slightly less hamfisted grease monkey who understands the cars to do it for you. The trick is to catch it before something fails and sends you (or your customer) off the road.
Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 3rd October 17:21
Paul S4 said:
...I do not usually get involved in these sorts of discussions, but in this case I had to 'defend' the case for the Stromberg Elan S4 !
I guess I ought to add that I'm not particularly anti-Stromberg myself; I loved my Stromberg car dearly and was more sorry to let it go than any other car I've owned. I spotted it outside Paul Matty's only a week or so ago, looking very down-at-heel, unfortunately, which just goes to show how quickly they can deteriorate if not looked after (if you're the owner and read this, give me a shout - I left my business card with June Matty to pass on to you - but you'd better have a good explanation about why you've been neglecting 'my' car, unless you've just bought it to restore! ).I wouldn't want to overplay the icing issue, either, 'cos, as you quite rightly say, it won't matter most of the time. If you use your car in summer, or for relatively short blasts (it only seemed to manifest itself after 15-20 minutes or more at sustained high revs, in my experience), then you'll probably never encounter it. Even in autumn/winter, it's only in grey, damp conditions that it shows up. There's a photo on the net of my car in Dove Dale in Yorkshire, one Christmas morning - crystal blue skies, freezing cold (so all the moisture had been frozen out of the air) and one of the most memorable drives of my life, with carburettor icing nowhere to be seen!
There are pros and cons to both carburettor set ups. For the Strombergs, I'd personally list them as:
PROS
- Much better fuel consumption.
- The variable chokes give significantly better torque spread, meaning that a well set-up Stromberg car is as quick as a Sprint, in real-world road use (though if you've got noticeable flat-spots on a Weber/Dellorto car, then it's badly jetted or tuned).
- The bulge in the bonnet looks great, I think - the flat bonnet needs a little extra something to stop the car looking a but too dainty and effete.
- Cheaper to buy.
- Sensitive to correct set-up and condition and some parts can be difficult to source.
- Prone to air leaks around the throttle spindles and mounting O-rings (the latter because the carbs are mounted on 4-studs per O-ring, unlike the 2-studs on Webers/Dellortos, so it takes care to tighten them up to give an even pressure on the O-ring, particularly if the have started to go a bit hard with age - back to the regular maintenance again, I'm afraid!).
- As Paul says (and ironically, given the icing problem), the Stromberg engine usually runs 5 deg. C. or so hotter, thus making the cooling in traffic a little more marginal. Not a problem if you keep the system in a tip-top state of maintenance, but you'll be seeing a theme forming, here?
- Prone to carburettor icing in some conditions, but we've covered that exhaustively.
- Not quite as free-revving as the Webers/Dellortos when you blip the throttle not under load, so not quite as sharp when heeling-and-toeing.
- Not generally regarded as quite so desirable, so slightly trickier to shift when you want to sell.
Very interesting.I would be tempted to Inject an old stromberg head, two throttle bodies with injector bosses welded into the inlet track. With larger T/Bs and decent engine management ,DIS pack etc, will improve the BHP and performance dramatically . As far as originally is concerned,an old pair of strombergs could be bored out and sleeved to be used as throttle bodies.Stromberg Heads are generally much cheaper than the webber variant so they are begging to be re-worked.
Injector Bosses could be fixed to the underside of the manifold. Submersible fuel pump fitted to a alloy tank,which we make in house.( I have fitted one to our clients Sprint, to get over the supply issue at higher revs-in from the adequate mechanical pump) Pipework and regulator, job done.
Be an interesting project to do.
Injector Bosses could be fixed to the underside of the manifold. Submersible fuel pump fitted to a alloy tank,which we make in house.( I have fitted one to our clients Sprint, to get over the supply issue at higher revs-in from the adequate mechanical pump) Pipework and regulator, job done.
Be an interesting project to do.
RW774 said:
I would be tempted to Inject an old stromberg head, two throttle bodies with injector bosses welded into the inlet track.
QED have done an injection set-up for the Stromberg head already, though they used a pair of bolt-on throttle bodies - which looked a bit weird - rather than 'gutted' Stromberg carbs (and DTA engine management, IIRC). It's been around a while - I enquired about it for my Stromberg Elan. They didn't reckon it would make much difference to peak power (limitation is the crap airflow characteristics through the siamesed manifold on the heads apparently), but it would transform driveability. One of the main reasons I decided against it was the non-original appearance, so something that still looked like carbs might be tempting. You'd have to bodge a TPS onto the carbs somewhere, but I guess most of the rest of it could be quite well hidden.
Quite a lot of cost and trouble to go to, though, for the sake of an engine that would still be blown away by a Weber head with QED 420 cams (and, of course, if you're not bothered about originality you can get throttle bodies that are a straight, bolt-on replacement for the carbs if you want to go down the injection route with a Weber engine).
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