Hypothetical what car?
Discussion
If you had up to £15k to invest in a Lotus, which would you go for?
I've come into a bit of cash and having seen how poor the banks' saving schemes are I'm contemplating swapping my TVR for something else and 'storing' the money that way.
The idea isn't to make money as such, but to have fun with a car that won't lose heaps of it either. Various Lotuses appeal...
Esprit of some description
Elan S4 (well basically an old Elan of some description, but these seem the most realistic at that price?)
Elise S2
Exige S1
Any thoughts? The criteria are that it would have to be largely depreciation proof, unlikely to suffer any hugely costly breakdowns and fun to drive on an occasional basis.
I've come into a bit of cash and having seen how poor the banks' saving schemes are I'm contemplating swapping my TVR for something else and 'storing' the money that way.
The idea isn't to make money as such, but to have fun with a car that won't lose heaps of it either. Various Lotuses appeal...
Esprit of some description
Elan S4 (well basically an old Elan of some description, but these seem the most realistic at that price?)
Elise S2
Exige S1
Any thoughts? The criteria are that it would have to be largely depreciation proof, unlikely to suffer any hugely costly breakdowns and fun to drive on an occasional basis.
Have a look at the Excel, very, very underrated.
Just over 2000 made and even less on the roads.
It can only go up in price?
Lotus Excel website for more info
I really didn't want to tell you because I want another and the more people know how good they are the more the price will go up!
Just over 2000 made and even less on the roads.
It can only go up in price?
Lotus Excel website for more info
I really didn't want to tell you because I want another and the more people know how good they are the more the price will go up!
I've looked into the possibility of an Excel before (as an only car) and they certainly seem like a very underrated proposition. However, the idea is to sink a reasonable ammount of the money which will otherwise be deflating in the bank into the car and, perverse as it sounds, the Excel is perhaps not expensive enough!
(The best my bank could offer is still below inflation and I decided I'd rather loose a small amount on car ownership, than loose a smaller amount in the bank. I already have a second car, so running costs +/- are there already.)
It does raise an interesting comparison though. The Excel sounds like quite an easy car to live with, yet the Esprit with the same engine and presumably some other common parts doesn't seem to be. Is that a fair statement?
(The best my bank could offer is still below inflation and I decided I'd rather loose a small amount on car ownership, than loose a smaller amount in the bank. I already have a second car, so running costs +/- are there already.)
It does raise an interesting comparison though. The Excel sounds like quite an easy car to live with, yet the Esprit with the same engine and presumably some other common parts doesn't seem to be. Is that a fair statement?
I'd look towards and S1 Elise, probably a 111S. In common with all cars, prices have taken a bit of a tumble recently so there are some good buys out there, particularly at the moment. You'd probably need to spend some money on getting the suspension refreshed (ball joints, bushes, maybe the steering rack etc). Take the clams off and give the tub a really good clean and replace fixings with stainless, get the seats and sill pads retrimmed and finally send her for a good quality respray. That will probably take you towards 15k but you'll have a car that will look and should drive like new and will probably start appreciating within a few years.
Toyota powered Elise S,Evo's performance car of the year in 06.
Its reliable,you get the nice Probax seats,ABS,£200 for a service,40mpg and no bits falling off in true Lotus style
http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/planetevovideos/204583...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/811868.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/583026.htm
Prices coming in to your range
.
Its reliable,you get the nice Probax seats,ABS,£200 for a service,40mpg and no bits falling off in true Lotus style
http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/planetevovideos/204583...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/811868.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/583026.htm
Prices coming in to your range
.If it's as an investment, it would have to be the S1 Exige. I'm pretty sure that Exiges have bottomed-out, and they're pretty reliable in 177bhp spec. Budget for an engine rebuild sooner or later with the 190bhp spec., but at least if you are strapped for cash you can fit a bog standard K-series for a few hundred quid as a stop gap. The rest of the car is pretty simple and reliable.
Elans have been climbing gradually in price for a few years an are great cars, but you need to be continually tinkering with them (minor electrical problems, greasing trunnions, adjusting the handbrake, that sort of stuff) and while the engines are pretty reliable, they're not cheap to fix if they do throw a major tantrum. Realistically, the engines need rebuilding every 50K miles or thereabouts, too, and you need to budget about £3-£4K to have that done properly (about half as much if you do it yourself). If you're buying as an investment, avoid the Stromberg engined cars (not that there's anything wrong with them - just the market doesn't like them), and try to stretch to a Sprint (the market does like them...).
Apart from S1's, Esprits are showing no real signs of climbing in value, yet, and in any case are a different ball-game in terms of maintenance costs and certainly don't tick your 'unlikely to suffer hugely costly breakdowns' box.
To be honest, if investment value is a consideration, then an Elise S2 in't even in the running - they've got a long way still to depreciate, yet.
Elans have been climbing gradually in price for a few years an are great cars, but you need to be continually tinkering with them (minor electrical problems, greasing trunnions, adjusting the handbrake, that sort of stuff) and while the engines are pretty reliable, they're not cheap to fix if they do throw a major tantrum. Realistically, the engines need rebuilding every 50K miles or thereabouts, too, and you need to budget about £3-£4K to have that done properly (about half as much if you do it yourself). If you're buying as an investment, avoid the Stromberg engined cars (not that there's anything wrong with them - just the market doesn't like them), and try to stretch to a Sprint (the market does like them...).
Apart from S1's, Esprits are showing no real signs of climbing in value, yet, and in any case are a different ball-game in terms of maintenance costs and certainly don't tick your 'unlikely to suffer hugely costly breakdowns' box.
To be honest, if investment value is a consideration, then an Elise S2 in't even in the running - they've got a long way still to depreciate, yet.
An Elise S1 does appeal (based on experiences with the S2), but whenever I think of them, a quote rings in my head from a friend who used to be a roadtester. "Nice car, but truly evil lift off oversteer..." Slightly worried my hamfisted driving style could rapidly put an end to the investment.
I also like the idea of something a little different and an S1 Exige would seem to make sense from that point of view. Can anyone explain what they're like to drive in comparison to the Elise?
All just hypothetical at the moment, but if anybody has a desperate urge to part exchange their Lotus for a TVR S3, drop me a PM.
I also like the idea of something a little different and an S1 Exige would seem to make sense from that point of view. Can anyone explain what they're like to drive in comparison to the Elise?
All just hypothetical at the moment, but if anybody has a desperate urge to part exchange their Lotus for a TVR S3, drop me a PM.
Chris71 said:
...a quote rings in my head from a friend who used to be a roadtester. "Nice car, but truly evil lift off oversteer..." Slightly worried my hamfisted driving style could rapidly put an end to the investment.
I wouldn't worry too much. They are a bit snappy at the limit, but they're easy enough to rein back in with a quick flick of the wrist, if you react correctly. I think part of the reputation is down to numpties who stepped up to an Elise after FWD hot hatchbacks and don't react instinctively.They're not the sort of car you provoke into oversteer deliberately (though I used to slide my S160 around roundabouts every now and then), but they're fine so long as you don't drive like an idiot.
Edited by Sam_68 on Sunday 28th December 12:39
Chris71 said:
I've looked into the possibility of an Excel before (as an only car) and they certainly seem like a very underrated proposition. However, the idea is to sink a reasonable amount of the money which will otherwise be deflating in the bank into the car and, perverse as it sounds, the Excel is perhaps not expensive enough!
Chris, I can see where your coming from. So they are "not expensive enough" ... buy 2 or 3 or 4 ..... Chris71 said:
It does raise an interesting comparison though. The Excel sounds like quite an easy car to live with, yet the Esprit with the same engine and presumably some other common parts doesn't seem to be. Is that a fair statement?
I've owned an Excel and used it as a daily drive. Yes they are an easy car to live with but, like any car of that age, you need to look after them, luckily I enjoy, and can do most jobs. With 4 usable seats and a boot that can take 2 full size golf bags and trolleys I didn't mind the weekly maintenance.
I've also had the use of an Esprit Turbo for a couple of weeks. In my mind the are a totally different car, the Esprit is so much faster and I mean a lot faster.
But it is only 2 seater and has a lot smaller boot, so to my mind less of a family car but more of a supercar/weekend toy.
I think that your quest for a car that will make you more money than the banks is going to be very difficult thing, but a lot of fun finding out! What ever you choose have fun and good luck.
The difference in maintenance is, IMHO, due to to Esprit being mid engined and so much harder/difficult to work on.
I would agree with the sentiment on the Elise S1. Find a good Sport 135 and you'll love it to bits. You can get the 'snap oversteer' dialled out with a good neutral geo, and unless you drive it like a total mentalist shouldn't have any trouble at all. Fabulous little sportscar that if you do less than 5k a year in and don't track heavily shouldn't cost any more than a hot hatch to own.
Main differences between the S1 Exige and S1 Elise? Extra power of the VHPD engine (190bhp vs 120 for boggo S1, 143 in the VVC and 160-ish in the Sport 160). The most obvvious difference is the bodyshell, the Exige having better aero for track work. The Exige also has 16/17inch wheels as opposed to 15/16 on the Elise. The Exige as standard runs Lotus Sports Suspension (against the original S1 Koni set-up) although very few cars today will probably still be running the LSS or Konis. As far as handling charecteristics are concerned the cars can be made to do pretty much what you want. The suspension is fully adjustable on both models so can be tuned to suit your use and driving style.
I wouldn't worry about lift off oversteer: its no worse than old style hot hatches like the Pug 205 and I've only ever had a couple of 'moments' on the road but easy enough to catch. Spend a day with Walshy at Carlimits and you'll feel far more confidednt in the car and learn to deal with oversteer.
The S1 Elise and Exige are both future classics and worth catching now as prices are low and generally the cars haven't been allowed to deteriorate to the point where restoring to 'as new' is going to cost silly money.
I wouldn't worry about lift off oversteer: its no worse than old style hot hatches like the Pug 205 and I've only ever had a couple of 'moments' on the road but easy enough to catch. Spend a day with Walshy at Carlimits and you'll feel far more confidednt in the car and learn to deal with oversteer.
The S1 Elise and Exige are both future classics and worth catching now as prices are low and generally the cars haven't been allowed to deteriorate to the point where restoring to 'as new' is going to cost silly money.
Chris71 said:
Any more thoughts on the Esprit?
To be honest, with your purchase criteria I just wouldn't go there.By comparison with the other cars on your list, they're complex, unreliable, potentially expensive to maintain and aren't the easiest cars to sell on, when the time comes.
Sam_68 said:
Chris71 said:
Any more thoughts on the Esprit?
To be honest, with your purchase criteria I just wouldn't go there.By comparison with the other cars on your list, they're complex, unreliable, potentially expensive to maintain and aren't the easiest cars to sell on, when the time comes.
I think out of the Loti an Exige probably appeals most (strictly hypothetical at this stage...) What do people think of the S1 vs S2? I must admit [in blown form] I didn't find the Toyota engine the most charismatic of powerplants, but there again, the K-Series is said to be a bit more fragile?
Also, could somebody give an idea of Exige running costs and how these would compare to an Elise?
kambites said:
How about a Honda powered S1 Elise? They seem to have pretty much bottomed out now and a well sorted one will be amongst the most fun Elise derivatives.
A little pricey, realistically allowing for a big tax bill next year I should be looking at about £15k tops.But out of interest, what's the story with those? I presume they're an aftermarket conversion? Were they all done by a particular company?
I think I now have a shortlist - TVR Griffith or V8S, Lotus Exige S1, Fisher Fury or Westfield XI.
Edited by Chris71 on Tuesday 30th December 11:50
Having had 3 Rover Engined Elises and a Honda converted car, with your budget and intended use I still recommend getting a very nicely sorted S1 or S2 for your money. You will have bags of fun and will not incur too many large bills if you don't track it heavily. Look for a sensibly modified car with improved brakes, suspension, exhaust and induction, maybe with harnesses if you can, and which has been enthusiast owned, and you'll have a great time.
For an S2 111S this seems very good value to me at the moment... http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/833999.htm
Will is a well known member of SELOC and his stock has always looked in good condition. Worth a look I'd say.
For an S2 111S this seems very good value to me at the moment... http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/833999.htm
Will is a well known member of SELOC and his stock has always looked in good condition. Worth a look I'd say.
I can't see them dropping a lot lower than they are now, unless the arse completely drops out and you start getting non cat X S1's for around £5k. Even so, if it's a car the OP intends on using lightly and keeping for a while, around the £10-12k mark would seem a reasonable price to me.
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