does anyone recognise this Lotus
Discussion
The Lotus 'publicity stunt' car referred to by Odyssey was a 51 Formula Ford, not a 22 Formula Junior.
I assume you have already contacted Peter Denty?
Have you tried contacting the DVLA for a list of previous owners? Costs a fiver, IIRC, but the information they provide normally goes back to photocopied documents for the first registered keeper. Since you have, ostensibly, a car built in what, 1962(?) that was first registered for road use in 1967, the likelihood is that the first 'registered keeper' is the guy who did the conversion. Alternatively, since the DVLA details are incorrect (200cc engine!?), then whenever the registration document was changed to Lotus as the 'manufacturer', then you've got your man...
It might also be worth speaking to Mike Brotherwood, Xanthos and Tony Thompson to see if they have any recollection of the car, if you haven't already done so. Mike Brotherwood has a huge knowledge of early Lotus spaceframe racers, so might have known about the project. Xanthos and Tony Thompson both supply spares (or in Xanthos' case, complete replicas) of the type 22.
My guess - unless you can tell me different yourself - would have been that what you have is actually not a Lotus at all (at least the only bit of it that came from the Lotus factory is the badges!), but example of the Xanthos 22 replica shown on the company's US Website, or its precursor? As you will see from the photos, even the detailing of such things as wing mirrors and lamp mounting brackets is almost identical to your car?
You're not anything to do with Xanthos cars yourself, are you? I note your profile lists South England and France among your locations, and Xanthos have similar bases (Bristol in the UK and Mondonville in France)...
I assume you have already contacted Peter Denty?
Have you tried contacting the DVLA for a list of previous owners? Costs a fiver, IIRC, but the information they provide normally goes back to photocopied documents for the first registered keeper. Since you have, ostensibly, a car built in what, 1962(?) that was first registered for road use in 1967, the likelihood is that the first 'registered keeper' is the guy who did the conversion. Alternatively, since the DVLA details are incorrect (200cc engine!?), then whenever the registration document was changed to Lotus as the 'manufacturer', then you've got your man...
It might also be worth speaking to Mike Brotherwood, Xanthos and Tony Thompson to see if they have any recollection of the car, if you haven't already done so. Mike Brotherwood has a huge knowledge of early Lotus spaceframe racers, so might have known about the project. Xanthos and Tony Thompson both supply spares (or in Xanthos' case, complete replicas) of the type 22.
My guess - unless you can tell me different yourself - would have been that what you have is actually not a Lotus at all (at least the only bit of it that came from the Lotus factory is the badges!), but example of the Xanthos 22 replica shown on the company's US Website, or its precursor? As you will see from the photos, even the detailing of such things as wing mirrors and lamp mounting brackets is almost identical to your car?
You're not anything to do with Xanthos cars yourself, are you? I note your profile lists South England and France among your locations, and Xanthos have similar bases (Bristol in the UK and Mondonville in France)...
Edited by Sam_68 on Sunday 16th December 23:33
I'm fairly certain that there is a pic of it beind driven by the late Chairman of Club Lotus Graham Arnold in an old Club Lotus magazine. As I recall it said that the pic was taken when GA was marketing director of Lotus as a publicity stunt.
As you probably know, Club Lotus has changed hands a couple of years ago and that would probably account for them not knowing anything about it.
Bazza 907
As you probably know, Club Lotus has changed hands a couple of years ago and that would probably account for them not knowing anything about it.
Bazza 907
I’ll be honest, unless you have very robust evidence to the contrary, I’d be sceptical of the car being an original Lotus 22.
These old spaceframe Lotus’ are extremely easy to copy, due to the very basic technology and the large number of proprietary components that they use. Even blank chassis plates are readily available and it wouldn’t take much research to come up with the chassis number of a lost/exported/destroyed car to re-create an identity.
The intrinsic value of old single-seaters can be defined pretty much in order of precedence:
1 Provenance and race history
2 Eligibility for historic motorsports events
3 Engine identity and originality of specification
4 Chassis originality
5 Originality of everything else.
In the case of your car:
1 You presumably have no provenance, or you wouldn’t be asking the question?
2 The modifications make it ineligible for most events.
3 The engine and drivetrain are clearly non-original.
4 You state yourself that the chassis is non-original.
5 The rest of the components have no provenance and copies are readily available from a number of sources.
The odds against someone hacking an original 22 about to install a modern bike engine seem pretty slim, when the cost of creating a new car from scratch would be much cheaper and simpler (bearing in mind that the ‘remains’ of an original car – even if only those remains are merely the chassis plate and identity – could be sold to cover most of the cost) and would not degrade the value of an original.
I’d have thought your best bet is to trace the history of the number plate that the car carries. As noted above, it’s listed as a car first registered in ’67, yet the original 22 was built in 1962, from memory, which is very curious… had the car been original, I’d have expected the DVLA to award it an age-related plate dated to its year of manufacture. Someone has apparently transferred it from a Europa. By the sound of it, you have a big problem in terms of road legality, apart from anything else. See this thread - basically if the car is incorrectly registered, the chances are it will need an SVA certificate before it can be legally used on European roads.
What do the DVLA’s records say, and what does the chassis number tell you?
edited to add... bet you wish you hadn't asked now?
These old spaceframe Lotus’ are extremely easy to copy, due to the very basic technology and the large number of proprietary components that they use. Even blank chassis plates are readily available and it wouldn’t take much research to come up with the chassis number of a lost/exported/destroyed car to re-create an identity.
The intrinsic value of old single-seaters can be defined pretty much in order of precedence:
1 Provenance and race history
2 Eligibility for historic motorsports events
3 Engine identity and originality of specification
4 Chassis originality
5 Originality of everything else.
In the case of your car:
1 You presumably have no provenance, or you wouldn’t be asking the question?
2 The modifications make it ineligible for most events.
3 The engine and drivetrain are clearly non-original.
4 You state yourself that the chassis is non-original.
5 The rest of the components have no provenance and copies are readily available from a number of sources.
The odds against someone hacking an original 22 about to install a modern bike engine seem pretty slim, when the cost of creating a new car from scratch would be much cheaper and simpler (bearing in mind that the ‘remains’ of an original car – even if only those remains are merely the chassis plate and identity – could be sold to cover most of the cost) and would not degrade the value of an original.
I’d have thought your best bet is to trace the history of the number plate that the car carries. As noted above, it’s listed as a car first registered in ’67, yet the original 22 was built in 1962, from memory, which is very curious… had the car been original, I’d have expected the DVLA to award it an age-related plate dated to its year of manufacture. Someone has apparently transferred it from a Europa. By the sound of it, you have a big problem in terms of road legality, apart from anything else. See this thread - basically if the car is incorrectly registered, the chances are it will need an SVA certificate before it can be legally used on European roads.
What do the DVLA’s records say, and what does the chassis number tell you?
edited to add... bet you wish you hadn't asked now?
Edited by Sam_68 on Monday 17th December 12:50
from the post ,
the chassis is a Peter Denty chassis , so it is not a kit car ,
the car has been SVA'd and has the certificate ,and is road legal.and has a file of old MOT's
I am simply looking at the cars previous history . Ie previous owners etc.
I spoke in length with Classic team Lotus last year about the car.
The concensus was that several old frames , that had not been raced were stored into the late 60s then sold off .
It certainly appeared that my car could well be one of these , and built up.
The conversion to Kawasaki power would have been undertaken sometime in the 90s , there again not unusual . The performance between a race bike engine with 6 speed sequential box , would out perform the original engine / gearbox set up.
Classic team Lotus also said they could return the car back to the original specification if neccessary
I plan to take the car to them for a refurbishment and re-paint in the Lotis 49 Team colours next spring.
I am quite happy keeping the car as a road conversion the performance is excellent . I have no intention of racing her other than possible track days ( at the ring etc ) as posted earlier I would like to trace previous owners of the car and get a bit of history
the chassis is a Peter Denty chassis , so it is not a kit car ,
the car has been SVA'd and has the certificate ,and is road legal.and has a file of old MOT's
I am simply looking at the cars previous history . Ie previous owners etc.
I spoke in length with Classic team Lotus last year about the car.
The concensus was that several old frames , that had not been raced were stored into the late 60s then sold off .
It certainly appeared that my car could well be one of these , and built up.
The conversion to Kawasaki power would have been undertaken sometime in the 90s , there again not unusual . The performance between a race bike engine with 6 speed sequential box , would out perform the original engine / gearbox set up.
Classic team Lotus also said they could return the car back to the original specification if neccessary
I plan to take the car to them for a refurbishment and re-paint in the Lotis 49 Team colours next spring.
I am quite happy keeping the car as a road conversion the performance is excellent . I have no intention of racing her other than possible track days ( at the ring etc ) as posted earlier I would like to trace previous owners of the car and get a bit of history
DBSV8 said:
the chassis is a Peter Denty chassis , so it is not a kit car,
the car has been SVA'd and has the certificate ,and is road legal.and has a file of old MOT's
Hmm… curiouser and curiouser. the car has been SVA'd and has the certificate ,and is road legal.and has a file of old MOT's
You're creating more questions than answers, here!
SVA is a relatively recent system (post 1990), which implies that the road registration of the car was after that point.
If it had been made road legal earlier, it wouldn't have needed the SVA test if it had originally been registered correctly (ie. described on the registration documents as a Lotus Type 22).
There was a 'grace period' after SVA was introduced during which the then-owner could have corrected the car's identity without problems if it had merely been registered as a Europa for convenience back in the days when no one really cared. Unfortunately, that 'grace period' is now well and truly behind us, so if the car is described as a Lotus Europa on the DVLA database and/or the engine capacity/engine number is incorrect, it is, quite simply, not legitimate for road use. What does the SVA MAC and the car's V5 give its description as?
MOT certificates do not necessarily confirm road legality, particularly if the car has been incorrectly registered in any way or has been modified since first registration (and by any stretch of the imagination, a Type 22 represents a pretty radical 'modification' from a Europa!). The MOT tests only a tiny sub-set of the Road Vehicle Construction and Use and EU Type Approval criteria, hence the introduction of SVA in the first place as a 'super MOT' for vehicles which have not gone through the full volume type approval process or have been modified substantially from their 'approved' form.
Interestingly, I can spot several issues (eg. wind deflector, light mounting brackets, projections on suspension components) even from the photos you posted above which ought to result in failure under the SVA regulations... which would tend to imply that either the car has been modified further since it was put through the original SVA test, or the vehicle that was tested wasn't the car you are now driving.
So we're no further forward with understanding why a car that was originally produced in 1962 should be registered as 1967 Europa, with an incorrect engine capacity… and with SVA certification that it shouldn't have needed unless it was first made road-legal after Y2K!?
The car doesn't have to be a kit car to cause SVA problems. SVA applies to all non-type approved limited production, one-off, substantially modified and import vehicles. In period, Lotus spaceframes were subcontracted out to Arch Motors. A Peter Denty chassis, whilst of high quality, is not in any way 'original' and does not confer originality upon the car. Peter is merely a (very good) restorer of these cars. I could ring and order a new type 22 chassis from him (or an equally perfect copy of an Eleven, 15 or 23 chassis from a number of sources) tomorrow, but the resultant car would not be a Lotus unless I faked the chassis identity (which is easy enough and happens quite a bit, but is never the less illegal!)
There was a big battle between Lotus owners and the DVLA a few years ago over replacement of backbone chassis in Elans. The DVLA's stance was that the car was substantially rebuilt and of indeterminate origin if the chassis was replaced by another manufacturer's copy (Spyder, in this case). The car would therefore be awarded a Q-registration and - had the battle taken place after SVA had been introduced – would have required SVA testing. It was ultimately resolved by (a) owners being advised by Club Lotus not to declare the chassis change to the DVLA, and (b) by Lotus asserting, slightly disingenuously, that the backbone was merely a subframe assembly to the Elan/Europa glassfibre monocoque and that the main bodyshell carried the chassis plate and hence chassis 'identity'. This is not an argument that could be made to stand up with the 22's spaceframe type chassis, particularly since the 22 was never type approved for use as a road car in the first place!
I'd still stick to my guess that the car is a replica (or 'recreation' if you prefer), created pretty much from scratch using all-new components.
Out of interest, what is the car's chassis number and what does the chassis plate say (ie. appearance and manufacturer's name and address)? A photo of the chassis plate would be very helpful in determining originality or otherwise.
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