Early Esprit versus an Excel as a daily driver
Discussion
Is it naive to assume either of these could be used as a daily driver? I have thought about an Excel before and opinion seemed to be divided roughly 50:50 between people who thought it would be fine with its galvanised chassis and toyota input and those who thought it would be a road to ruin.
So, if I decided I didn't need the rear seats or a boot, is the Esprit still a less practical proposition?
So, if I decided I didn't need the rear seats or a boot, is the Esprit still a less practical proposition?
I'm using my late Excel as a daily driver, but haven't had it long enough to comment on reliability. The reputation is that the engine and gearbox are good for much higher mileages than they are currently being sold at. At the same time there will always be someone who's had a bad experience and some muppet who'll quote 'Loads of Trouble..'.
Of course, any car of that age will have rotting plastics and electrics that need occasional attention. The Excel is also pretty thirsty and not all that dramatic to drive - many modern hot hatches will keep up and it needs it's neck wringing to get to the fun bits. That said, it is a real pleasure to get into in the morning and belt into work. Long trips are easy and stress free and you can get your mates to the pub at lunchtime.
The advantage of an Excel against an early Esprit is mainly age and the additional development Lotus did on the engines. The disadvantage is that the Excel could do with a turbo, and both cars would benefit from fuel injection.
Of course, any car of that age will have rotting plastics and electrics that need occasional attention. The Excel is also pretty thirsty and not all that dramatic to drive - many modern hot hatches will keep up and it needs it's neck wringing to get to the fun bits. That said, it is a real pleasure to get into in the morning and belt into work. Long trips are easy and stress free and you can get your mates to the pub at lunchtime.
The advantage of an Excel against an early Esprit is mainly age and the additional development Lotus did on the engines. The disadvantage is that the Excel could do with a turbo, and both cars would benefit from fuel injection.
Do all Excels run on carbs? Bah.... nasty things! Never quite understood these devices that seem to run on black magic. As a modern calibration engineer I much prefer the idea that someone has entered a number into the ECU map to the last decimal point!
That said - for a 4 cylinder you can't beat the sound of twin SU's
Sorry, slightly pointless rant over...
What sort of 'economy' do you get? To put in into perspective the only vaguely sensible car I'm thinking of is a V6 Alfa and the others are V8 and V6 TVRs, so anything in the 20s would be competitive!
Aren't there some truly horrible service procedures on the Esprit? I didn't realise until the other day that a mates brother actually runs one as a daily driver, so I'll have to quiz him at some point, but I seem to remember horror stories about having to take the engine out to change the spark plugs or something! Ok, I'm using a bit of artistic license there, but I gather the Esprit installation is a bit awkward, is the Excel easier to work on?
To be honest the main thing that worries me (about either) is that I think they'd have to live in a garage and I doubt they'd fit in a standard rented lock-up once the door had been opened! I have toyed with the idea of an Excel in the past and I seemed to remember I measured up my garage at the time only to find out it was about 6" wider than the car!
edit: Am I also right thinking they have a slight tendancy to leak? Garage-issues withstanding, it would be kept undercover most nights if I got one, but I'd like something that can be left outside work for 8 hours and survive an unexpected thunderstorm.
That said - for a 4 cylinder you can't beat the sound of twin SU's
Sorry, slightly pointless rant over...
What sort of 'economy' do you get? To put in into perspective the only vaguely sensible car I'm thinking of is a V6 Alfa and the others are V8 and V6 TVRs, so anything in the 20s would be competitive!
Aren't there some truly horrible service procedures on the Esprit? I didn't realise until the other day that a mates brother actually runs one as a daily driver, so I'll have to quiz him at some point, but I seem to remember horror stories about having to take the engine out to change the spark plugs or something! Ok, I'm using a bit of artistic license there, but I gather the Esprit installation is a bit awkward, is the Excel easier to work on?
To be honest the main thing that worries me (about either) is that I think they'd have to live in a garage and I doubt they'd fit in a standard rented lock-up once the door had been opened! I have toyed with the idea of an Excel in the past and I seemed to remember I measured up my garage at the time only to find out it was about 6" wider than the car!
edit: Am I also right thinking they have a slight tendancy to leak? Garage-issues withstanding, it would be kept undercover most nights if I got one, but I'd like something that can be left outside work for 8 hours and survive an unexpected thunderstorm.
Edited by Chris71 on Monday 10th December 10:28
I've done both and both have advantages and disadvantages. The Esprit is mid-engined so you face all the usual probs here of access but that said the plugs, carbs etc are all on top of the engine so not too bad, any work involving the front end (eg belts) is tricky and best done on a lift from below - often with a helper above !! That said the Excel bonnet hinges from the front so it isn't all plain sailing there (easier to take bonnet off !). With good servicing both will last very well - The Esprit S2 ran out to 120K before chassis rot got too bad and my K plate Excel SE was still strong at 130K.
Space in the Esprit is there but you just have to get creative - they will easily eat a shopping trolley full, in the Excel it's more conventional with occasional rear seats and a "proper" boot.
And don't let anyone tell you an Excel is slow - legend has it guys like Roger Becker and Alistair McQueen were as quick around Hethel in an Excel SE as they were in a Turbo Esprit !
Space in the Esprit is there but you just have to get creative - they will easily eat a shopping trolley full, in the Excel it's more conventional with occasional rear seats and a "proper" boot.
And don't let anyone tell you an Excel is slow - legend has it guys like Roger Becker and Alistair McQueen were as quick around Hethel in an Excel SE as they were in a Turbo Esprit !
Just to fill out some of the servicing and problem areas:
The bonnet lid is fairly easily removed, so yes, if you're doing a big job on it, it'd be easier just to take it off. Economy is in the low 20's, down to the teens if you work it hard. It is fast, but all the action happens around 5K rpm so you have to get it up into the band to have fun. It's especially deceiving as it sounds nice and grunty at lower revs but nothing much happens. If your other car is a turbo diesel, remember to make the mental switch before driving!
Doors are the achilles heel for Excels - everything hangs off the door beam, which can rot. Replacement is (by all accounts) a pretty major job and it's near impossible to judge the extent of rot without taking it apart in the first place. Early signs are droopy doors. The hinge mechanism is typical Lotus and a pig to adjust fully, with bolts and a hinge pin that are often locked solid with age. My car had a gap you could put your hand through on the passenger side door, better ajusted now but not perfect. At speed the cabin pressurises, so you can suffer from doors blowing out slightly and wind noise as a result unless they shut tightly. I've not suffered any major leaks, but there is some sign of water ingress around the passenger door which probably reflects it's poor adjustment before I had it.
As for general reliability, I'm convinced a lot comes down to the driver. I've known people who seem to go through cars like they're running a scrap heap, yet others can get in the dogiest of motors and have years of hassle-free motoring.
The bonnet lid is fairly easily removed, so yes, if you're doing a big job on it, it'd be easier just to take it off. Economy is in the low 20's, down to the teens if you work it hard. It is fast, but all the action happens around 5K rpm so you have to get it up into the band to have fun. It's especially deceiving as it sounds nice and grunty at lower revs but nothing much happens. If your other car is a turbo diesel, remember to make the mental switch before driving!
Doors are the achilles heel for Excels - everything hangs off the door beam, which can rot. Replacement is (by all accounts) a pretty major job and it's near impossible to judge the extent of rot without taking it apart in the first place. Early signs are droopy doors. The hinge mechanism is typical Lotus and a pig to adjust fully, with bolts and a hinge pin that are often locked solid with age. My car had a gap you could put your hand through on the passenger side door, better ajusted now but not perfect. At speed the cabin pressurises, so you can suffer from doors blowing out slightly and wind noise as a result unless they shut tightly. I've not suffered any major leaks, but there is some sign of water ingress around the passenger door which probably reflects it's poor adjustment before I had it.
As for general reliability, I'm convinced a lot comes down to the driver. I've known people who seem to go through cars like they're running a scrap heap, yet others can get in the dogiest of motors and have years of hassle-free motoring.
Tuna said:
As for general reliability, I'm convinced a lot comes down to the driver. I've known people who seem to go through cars like they're running a scrap heap, yet others can get in the dogiest of motors and have years of hassle-free motoring.
My experience with other cars is it comes down to use. If allowed to warm up, cool down and recieves regular servicing even the most tempramental cars seem to prefer being run enthusiastically. Even my 'cheapest of the cheap' daily driver (inherited from my mother!) pulls a lot better after a few weeks in my ownership than it did after years being run by a middle aged woman. 
Are they reasonably civilised on a long run - what sort of engine speed are you doing at 80mph? On a completely clear road I love frantic, revvy engines. but it seems slightly at odds with the Excel's GT role.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5429885...
70mph = 3200rpm
Luggage for two for a week fits in the boot. Cruises nicely on the autoroute, keeps up with F430s & DBs of various types (gets away from them on the corners too)
http://www.lotusexcel.net/ for more opinions...
70mph = 3200rpm
Luggage for two for a week fits in the boot. Cruises nicely on the autoroute, keeps up with F430s & DBs of various types (gets away from them on the corners too)
http://www.lotusexcel.net/ for more opinions...
Edited by marshalla on Monday 10th December 16:19
16VJay said:
Fuel economy varies a lot between cars - I got 25 to 30 out of mine, 31 once even, but rarely was in town traffic.
I did 70k in two years with normal servicing in mine, no problem.
J.
That's a pretty serious recommendation. Rep mileage for one of the most (unfairly) maligned makes of car. You'd be chuffed if a new Mondeo stood up to 35k a year!I did 70k in two years with normal servicing in mine, no problem.
J.
To be honest the main thing putting me off is its size. It's definitely more GT than sportscar and joking aside I really don't know if one will fit in my garage. I'm tempted by a TVR 350i, mostly because it's open and I can simply climb out.
16VJay said:
Fuel economy varies a lot between cars - I got 25 to 30 out of mine, 31 once even, but rarely was in town traffic.
I did 70k in two years with normal servicing in mine, no problem.
J.
Woo another high-miles Excel user! I do 20k miles/year in mine.I did 70k in two years with normal servicing in mine, no problem.
J.
I'm on my second Excel now, the first one expired with ~145k on the clock at which point virtually every mechanical component was thoroughly used up.
Hi,
My Excel is a '91 Hethel Celebration.
I'm a contractor and was living on the South coast and working in Norfolk or Crewe, so just getting to work was 500 miles per week. Luckily I do my own servicing so the 4 or 5 services per year wasn't too expensive!!
It's not suffering that sort of abuse anymore as I now live in Norfolk so the long distance commuting is over (thankfully).
As far as garaging the thing, you'll need a garage at least 14 feet long which isn't too bad, but the width is the thing that may cause problems. It's not quite as bad as an Esprit but you'll still need 6'6" plus.
Jay.
My Excel is a '91 Hethel Celebration.
I'm a contractor and was living on the South coast and working in Norfolk or Crewe, so just getting to work was 500 miles per week. Luckily I do my own servicing so the 4 or 5 services per year wasn't too expensive!!
It's not suffering that sort of abuse anymore as I now live in Norfolk so the long distance commuting is over (thankfully).
As far as garaging the thing, you'll need a garage at least 14 feet long which isn't too bad, but the width is the thing that may cause problems. It's not quite as bad as an Esprit but you'll still need 6'6" plus.
Jay.
Edited by 16VJay on Tuesday 11th December 09:03
16VJay said:
the width is the thing that may cause problems. It's not quite as bad as an Esprit but you'll still need 6'6" plus.
I presume that's before you open a open to get out? I'm in the process of getting one of the local lock ups and I really don't think they're that much wider than the Excel is - I may have to abandon the plan in favour of something I can step out of without opening the door.
marshalla said:
It's a lightweight car - push it into the lock up and pull back out again!
That has been suggested before! How much do they weigh by the way?Will get the tape measure out. It may be possible to stick some carpet on the walls and open the door gently into them...
Sadly all the garages round here seem to have been made when the average family had a Morris Minor.
Not the 'gargantuan' cars of the 60s oh no, I mean the 1930s incarnation.
Still, I quite fancy the idea of cycling over to the garage on a sunny morning next spring, taking the car out, locking the bike in there and taking the fun way to work.
Haha. Good answer.
Ok - if I'm honest I find myself rather drawn to the TVR S3 or 350i instead, but as an engineer and a car enthusiast I realise anything with Champman involvment has been touched by greatest and there's something alluring about the 'mini exotic' looks of the Excel. So talk me out of the agricultural Lancastrian machines and into Norfolk's finest!
Has anyone vaguely local (preferably Essex/Middlesex type area) got one I could have a ride in? Subjectively the idea of a car with Lotus dynamics, 2+2 seating and Toyota involvement in the quality sounds perfect. Maybe if I could find one to have a look at I'd see the light!!
Ok - if I'm honest I find myself rather drawn to the TVR S3 or 350i instead, but as an engineer and a car enthusiast I realise anything with Champman involvment has been touched by greatest and there's something alluring about the 'mini exotic' looks of the Excel. So talk me out of the agricultural Lancastrian machines and into Norfolk's finest!
Has anyone vaguely local (preferably Essex/Middlesex type area) got one I could have a ride in? Subjectively the idea of a car with Lotus dynamics, 2+2 seating and Toyota involvement in the quality sounds perfect. Maybe if I could find one to have a look at I'd see the light!!
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