Elise S2 vs S1 Dynamically and Aesthetically
Discussion
Just a general query, well 2 actually.
Firstly, what would you have to do to an Elise S1 to truly make it outhandle a S2 (assuming you keep the engines as standard 1.8K series non-VVC)?
Secondly, in a slightly trollish vein, I've always felt the S2 looked like it's had a bad face lift. The headlights have this Zsa Zsa Gabor, pulled-up-the-side-of-the-head, surprised look IMHO. I had both S1 and S2 and the S2 never grew on me at all. The S2 seems to encourage more competetiveness from other drivers, has silly unscrewable panels to fill the washer bottle, a boot lock that faces where the rain is coming from and sides that have been dropped lower "to ease ingress." Let's face it, ingress to the S2 still isn't exactly easy and besides if you want easy ingress get a £#@*ing Volvo.
Admittedly the fat-arse-with-a-quiff on the S1 is not as "cool" as the S2 rear but this intersecting-curves stuff used to construct Ford design shouldn't be the aspiration of a company that just went completely off the map in terms of light chassis construction. What next, cup holders and nice leather-effect plastic? I felt they should have called the Europa the Epumamka - Just as cramped inside as an elise only heavier, slower and more expensive but looks like a Ford, nice one Lotus.
In terms of handling too, they made the S2 understeer to protect people. I don't know about you but I'd get a little shirty if I went to a restaurant and they put a cork on the end of my fork "so I don't hurt myself."
Why not just sell it with a sticker at eye level on the windscreen that says, "This is a midengined car with a low moment of rotation that optimizes balance and ability to change direction so if you lose the tail end you're on your own, moron."
Am I the only one who feels this way?
PS the S2 roof was better tho'
Firstly, what would you have to do to an Elise S1 to truly make it outhandle a S2 (assuming you keep the engines as standard 1.8K series non-VVC)?
Secondly, in a slightly trollish vein, I've always felt the S2 looked like it's had a bad face lift. The headlights have this Zsa Zsa Gabor, pulled-up-the-side-of-the-head, surprised look IMHO. I had both S1 and S2 and the S2 never grew on me at all. The S2 seems to encourage more competetiveness from other drivers, has silly unscrewable panels to fill the washer bottle, a boot lock that faces where the rain is coming from and sides that have been dropped lower "to ease ingress." Let's face it, ingress to the S2 still isn't exactly easy and besides if you want easy ingress get a £#@*ing Volvo.
Admittedly the fat-arse-with-a-quiff on the S1 is not as "cool" as the S2 rear but this intersecting-curves stuff used to construct Ford design shouldn't be the aspiration of a company that just went completely off the map in terms of light chassis construction. What next, cup holders and nice leather-effect plastic? I felt they should have called the Europa the Epumamka - Just as cramped inside as an elise only heavier, slower and more expensive but looks like a Ford, nice one Lotus.
In terms of handling too, they made the S2 understeer to protect people. I don't know about you but I'd get a little shirty if I went to a restaurant and they put a cork on the end of my fork "so I don't hurt myself."
Why not just sell it with a sticker at eye level on the windscreen that says, "This is a midengined car with a low moment of rotation that optimizes balance and ability to change direction so if you lose the tail end you're on your own, moron."
Am I the only one who feels this way?
PS the S2 roof was better tho'
You'd be better asking in the Elise forum, but:
It's generally acknowledged that the Bilstein dampers on the S2 are better, though, so I guess the answer is that you either fit an S1 car with S2 dampers, or an S2 car with wider front tyres. In that case, it's be almost impossible to call between the two, though perhaps the S1 would still have a slight edge if it was lighter?
M030ef00 said:
Firstly, what would you have to do to an Elise S1 to truly make it outhandle a S2 (assuming you keep the engines as standard 1.8K series non-VVC)?
Arguably nothing. Or even that you'd have to modify the S2 to make it handle as well as the S1, since as you point out yourself, the S2 was made slightly more numpty-proof by dialling in more understeer with narrower front tyres.It's generally acknowledged that the Bilstein dampers on the S2 are better, though, so I guess the answer is that you either fit an S1 car with S2 dampers, or an S2 car with wider front tyres. In that case, it's be almost impossible to call between the two, though perhaps the S1 would still have a slight edge if it was lighter?
M030ef00 said:
Am I the only one who feels this way?
Probably not. But what was the question again?M030ef00 said:
What was the question again?
Fair point, was 2 posts in one really.
In a nutshell, do you think the S2 was a bit of a pig in terms of aesthetics and design in comparison to the S1?
Personally, yes I do. I think the S1 is definitely the prettier sister. I also like the fact that it is more raw. Whilst the S2 clearly appeals to a large market, I don't personally like the "softening" that has been done. I don't need or want electric windows or A/C and I don't have a problem getting in and out with the original sill height etc. Those that want those things will obviously buy an S2. Each to their own, YMMV.Fair point, was 2 posts in one really.
In a nutshell, do you think the S2 was a bit of a pig in terms of aesthetics and design in comparison to the S1?
Bada Bing, I wouldn't presume to tax your aesthetic sensibilities as far as trying to understand another's point of view. If you had read with insight what I said, the intersecting curves style of design is a Ford/Vauxhall thing hence my assertion that it's a Ford-like design. Not sexy, unless Ford/Vauxhall is what gets you off.
The apparent oxymoron in my question applies to the handling, I want something that is quicker around a track than an S2 but looks like an S1 with better brakes. My knowledge of Elises is not "Bugger all" but I would certainly have the humility to ask others opinion and listen to the answer. Are you assuming that Change=Progress and therefore Edition 2 is better than Edition 1 because of it's newness? I think there were some handling issues with the S1, braking in the wet was awful too. What I wanted to elicit were opinions from people better informed than I am, though I was hoping to avoid being insulted. I take it you judge yourself encyclopaedic on the topic? Why not actually answer the question instead? Thanks.
The apparent oxymoron in my question applies to the handling, I want something that is quicker around a track than an S2 but looks like an S1 with better brakes. My knowledge of Elises is not "Bugger all" but I would certainly have the humility to ask others opinion and listen to the answer. Are you assuming that Change=Progress and therefore Edition 2 is better than Edition 1 because of it's newness? I think there were some handling issues with the S1, braking in the wet was awful too. What I wanted to elicit were opinions from people better informed than I am, though I was hoping to avoid being insulted. I take it you judge yourself encyclopaedic on the topic? Why not actually answer the question instead? Thanks.
M030ef00 said:
I think there were some handling issues with the S1, braking in the wet was awful too.
The 'handling issues' are really more a case of 'driver skill issues'. Like most mid engined cars, the S1 Elise needs quick reactions to catch it when the back end steps out and, more importantly, will bite back if it is subjected to incorrect driver input... lift off the accelerator in a corner and things can get messy very suddenly.The problem was that many people were stepping up to the Elise with nil RWD experience after being fed a diet of relatively numpty-proof hot hatchbacks.
If you aspire to quick lap times on a circuit, there's nothing wrong with the S1 Elise's handling. If you get into trouble, it's 'cos you're driving it badly.
The only wet braking problem I had with my first Elise (an early S1) was that the MMC brakes would give no braking whatsoever if you had been running on a wet motorway for miles without touching the brake pedal, then needed to brake at an exit. It was rarely an issue, since I spent relatively little time driving on streaming wet motorways and when I did, an occasional dab on the brakes to keep them warm was all that was needed to solve the problem. Under normal road conditions, and certainly under track conditions, it isn't a problem because the brakes never get that cold. In any case most cars you'll come across are fitted with the later CI disks, which don't exhibit the same behaviour.
M030ef00 said:
Secondly, in a slightly trollish vein, I've always felt the S2 looked like it's had a bad face lift. The headlights have this Zsa Zsa Gabor, pulled-up-the-side-of-the-head, surprised look IMHO. I had both S1 and S2 and the S2 never grew on me at all.
Admittedly the fat-arse-with-a-quiff on the S1 is not as "cool" as the S2 rear Am I the only one who feels this way?
PS the S2 roof was better tho'
I agree 100%Admittedly the fat-arse-with-a-quiff on the S1 is not as "cool" as the S2 rear Am I the only one who feels this way?
PS the S2 roof was better tho'
S1 front nicer
S2 rear nicer
S2 roof good
S2 headlamps are abit zsa zsa gabor (good analogy)
The S2 is still very, very nice though, with the engine intake details (top and sides) really ace IMO.
edited to add.... the newer 2007 sealed headlamps, which have been repositioned rearward look much better IMO, less ZsaZsa and more Angelina.
Edited by bencollins on Sunday 23 December 21:24
Edited by bencollins on Tuesday 25th December 14:31
The looks thing is so subjective. I can't be bothered to analyse where the lines and curves interesect or whether it looks like a Ford or Not. A car either looks bloody good (all Elises/Exiges), forgetable (most Fords) or awful (I think the Bangle Fiat Coupe awful - sorry if that offends anyone).
Regarding handling: you seem to contradict yourself firstly asking if the S1 can be made to handle better than the S2 and then later critisise the S2's understeer bias. Both cars can be set up to handle as you wish by changing the suspension geo.If you really want the best handling for track use then you'll not bother will Bilsteins but go for either Nitrons or Ohlins on either model. Again the suspension needs to be set up to suit your driving style and needs.
Finally on brakes: Early S1s had the MMC brakes which could be poor in the wet if the driver didn't keep brushing the water off and the pads warm. Many S1s and indeed S2s have uprated brakes. Better discs and pads are a pretty standard upgrade for track work.
Someone said you don't seem to know or have researched the Elise very well - I'd agree. You're either trolling or need to do a bit more reading before you post up such ill-informed nonsense as you have.
Regarding handling: you seem to contradict yourself firstly asking if the S1 can be made to handle better than the S2 and then later critisise the S2's understeer bias. Both cars can be set up to handle as you wish by changing the suspension geo.If you really want the best handling for track use then you'll not bother will Bilsteins but go for either Nitrons or Ohlins on either model. Again the suspension needs to be set up to suit your driving style and needs.
Finally on brakes: Early S1s had the MMC brakes which could be poor in the wet if the driver didn't keep brushing the water off and the pads warm. Many S1s and indeed S2s have uprated brakes. Better discs and pads are a pretty standard upgrade for track work.
Someone said you don't seem to know or have researched the Elise very well - I'd agree. You're either trolling or need to do a bit more reading before you post up such ill-informed nonsense as you have.
"ill informed nonsense"?
Thanks, that's very productive. (A bit like my cough)
I am asking a question, that unavoidably implies a gap in my knowledge or at least a desire to hear another's opinion. Frankly the ones being rude don't seem to have contributed anything I didn't know. I've never come across actual Lotus owners with the sort of supercilious, condescending, conceited attitude that Tipper and Bada bing seem to - but perhaps I'm too quick to judge...
I know it seems I'm contradicting myself but I understand - though my reading may not be as comprehensive as yours - that the S2 was quicker around Hethel's Track than the similar power-to-weight S1. So the question is, I suppose, do you have to make an S1 less tail happy to go faster? Am I wrong to feel that's a bit counter-intuitive? The fact I dis' the safety aspect is because *that* is the reason that many people seem to give for the less tail happy, more understeer-y setup of the S2. So it wouldn't scare the punters - if that's the reason then isn't it a teensy bit of a sellout for a midengined enthusiasts' car?
PS: As far as background knowledge about Lotus goes, I've only lived with Elises as my only personal transport since 1996. I've done some track days but I wouldn't call myself an expert. Then again if I did I wouldn't be asking questions would I? I'd be answering them all smug and ar$ey. ;0)
Thanks, that's very productive. (A bit like my cough)
I am asking a question, that unavoidably implies a gap in my knowledge or at least a desire to hear another's opinion. Frankly the ones being rude don't seem to have contributed anything I didn't know. I've never come across actual Lotus owners with the sort of supercilious, condescending, conceited attitude that Tipper and Bada bing seem to - but perhaps I'm too quick to judge...
I know it seems I'm contradicting myself but I understand - though my reading may not be as comprehensive as yours - that the S2 was quicker around Hethel's Track than the similar power-to-weight S1. So the question is, I suppose, do you have to make an S1 less tail happy to go faster? Am I wrong to feel that's a bit counter-intuitive? The fact I dis' the safety aspect is because *that* is the reason that many people seem to give for the less tail happy, more understeer-y setup of the S2. So it wouldn't scare the punters - if that's the reason then isn't it a teensy bit of a sellout for a midengined enthusiasts' car?
PS: As far as background knowledge about Lotus goes, I've only lived with Elises as my only personal transport since 1996. I've done some track days but I wouldn't call myself an expert. Then again if I did I wouldn't be asking questions would I? I'd be answering them all smug and ar$ey. ;0)
Edited by M030ef00 on Tuesday 8th January 20:27
Thanks for the compliments - first time I've ever been called any of those things!
I'm afraid your posts are coming across as ill-informed, especially from someone now in their 12th year of Elise ownership.
Regarding the S2 being faster around Hethel - surely you've heard that all new Lotus varients are 2 sec/lap faster around Hethel than their predecessor
I also fail to understand why you've posted your questions in the general Lotus section rather than the Elise section? For more backround reading try going through the Seloc archives.
The only reason I'm being a bit high-handed is that your questions seem the sort of thing that would be posted by someone who couldn't be bothered to try and find out for himself first. There's a wealth of information out there if you can be bothered to look for it.
Incidently who did you do your track days with? Why not join Lotus on Track and enjoy tracking the car with other Lotus enthusiasts (mainly Elises/Exiges) who will gladly offer the benefit of their help and esxerience. You can even get very reasonably priced tuition and pick the brains of some very quick drivers (Martin Donnelly - an ex Lotus F1 driver is very helpful
).
- first time I've ever been called any of those things!I'm afraid your posts are coming across as ill-informed, especially from someone now in their 12th year of Elise ownership.
Regarding the S2 being faster around Hethel - surely you've heard that all new Lotus varients are 2 sec/lap faster around Hethel than their predecessor
I also fail to understand why you've posted your questions in the general Lotus section rather than the Elise section? For more backround reading try going through the Seloc archives.
The only reason I'm being a bit high-handed is that your questions seem the sort of thing that would be posted by someone who couldn't be bothered to try and find out for himself first. There's a wealth of information out there if you can be bothered to look for it.
Incidently who did you do your track days with? Why not join Lotus on Track and enjoy tracking the car with other Lotus enthusiasts (mainly Elises/Exiges) who will gladly offer the benefit of their help and esxerience. You can even get very reasonably priced tuition and pick the brains of some very quick drivers (Martin Donnelly - an ex Lotus F1 driver is very helpful
).Fair point about posting in the wrong section, I suppose I felt it was partly to do with the direction Lotus was taking with their design. I should really have posted two separate questions.
I did track days at Knockhill a many years ago and a couple at Donnington about 8 years ago. Many thanks for the suggestions where I might get further info. I've looked at elise*.com/co.uk/.au etc but there seems at least twice as many opinions as there are people.
I do have my own ideas on what makes an Elise faster around a track - the driver being the overwhelmingly the most important factor. Neil Turner organised a ride along for me, 10 laps with one of the Lotus test drivers around the Hethel track in about 1998 when I went down to the factory. Depressing really as there's no way I could ever be that good without killing myself and the car severally in the learning process :-)
I just wanted to know what people with more imagination than me would say about S1/S2 capabilities.
(PS: I wasn't offended at all about the Fiat Coupe, to me it has a somewhat suppository-like quality that I find deeply unsettling. Not that I'm suggesting that it's brakes are any worse than the car in front . . .)
I did track days at Knockhill a many years ago and a couple at Donnington about 8 years ago. Many thanks for the suggestions where I might get further info. I've looked at elise*.com/co.uk/.au etc but there seems at least twice as many opinions as there are people.
I do have my own ideas on what makes an Elise faster around a track - the driver being the overwhelmingly the most important factor. Neil Turner organised a ride along for me, 10 laps with one of the Lotus test drivers around the Hethel track in about 1998 when I went down to the factory. Depressing really as there's no way I could ever be that good without killing myself and the car severally in the learning process :-)
I just wanted to know what people with more imagination than me would say about S1/S2 capabilities.
(PS: I wasn't offended at all about the Fiat Coupe, to me it has a somewhat suppository-like quality that I find deeply unsettling. Not that I'm suggesting that it's brakes are any worse than the car in front . . .)
I think you'll enjoy Seloc. I was a bit nervous of it at first to be honest (I just lurked!) but there's some good banter and some very good advice (and plain rubbish too - half the fun is figuring out which is which!). You'll also find lots of conflicting ideas on how to achieve the same thing.
I've improved the brakes on my car over OE but once the current discs are shot (this year probably) I'll be fitting Ali bells and rotors and Pagid pads as I intend doing more track work. My suspension is also getting a refresh this year which will include Nitron dampers (probably a bit OTT but I've got some for a good price). Dependant on money she'll either get a power improvement this or next year from (probably) Dave Andrews (DVA Power).
As you say the thing that will make the most difference is the driver but the car is a hobby so I don't mind spending a few bob on her.
Don't forget LoT by the way. They are the biggest track day organisers in Europe and the standard of driving and on track manners are very good.
I've improved the brakes on my car over OE but once the current discs are shot (this year probably) I'll be fitting Ali bells and rotors and Pagid pads as I intend doing more track work. My suspension is also getting a refresh this year which will include Nitron dampers (probably a bit OTT but I've got some for a good price). Dependant on money she'll either get a power improvement this or next year from (probably) Dave Andrews (DVA Power).
As you say the thing that will make the most difference is the driver but the car is a hobby so I don't mind spending a few bob on her.
Don't forget LoT by the way. They are the biggest track day organisers in Europe and the standard of driving and on track manners are very good.
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