Elan +2S or an Excel? Practical(ish) sporstcar on a budget
Discussion
Hi,
Thinking about getting a fun car in the near future when I could afford a second car to back it up and amongst my huge list of contenders are two loti - a late Excel or a (1960s) Elan +2.
What do people think?
Absolute maximum budget is £7k. Must be insurable, fun, fast enough to get past the b-road dawdlers and capable of more or less everyday use.
The plan is to use whatever I get more or less all the time and keep a dirt cheap second car only for transporting large loads and particularly foul winter days. Therefore it should be reasonably watertight on the move (although a garage or car cover would be supplied when its resting!) and preferably relatively low maintanence (I appreciate this is a contradiction in terms for a lotus!)
(An Elan M100 is out on the grounds of 'must be RWD', Mk1 Esprit still too pricey for a good eample)
Thinking about getting a fun car in the near future when I could afford a second car to back it up and amongst my huge list of contenders are two loti - a late Excel or a (1960s) Elan +2.
What do people think?
Absolute maximum budget is £7k. Must be insurable, fun, fast enough to get past the b-road dawdlers and capable of more or less everyday use.
The plan is to use whatever I get more or less all the time and keep a dirt cheap second car only for transporting large loads and particularly foul winter days. Therefore it should be reasonably watertight on the move (although a garage or car cover would be supplied when its resting!) and preferably relatively low maintanence (I appreciate this is a contradiction in terms for a lotus!)
(An Elan M100 is out on the grounds of 'must be RWD', Mk1 Esprit still too pricey for a good eample)
Yep! £7k is strictly a maximum applying to any of the cars I'm looking at, I'd aim to spend significantly less than this. That said, having stupidly bought 'cheap' examples of other cars in the past I'm intending to spend the necesary time and money finding a good example of whatever I go for.
I had looked at the possibility of buying an Excel before (then as strictly as an only car and ruled out due to the need to carry stuff like fully grown passengers and muddy mountian bikes!) and from what I can remeber they vary quite a lot, but if you get the right era they were redesigned by Toyota and came with a galvanised chasis?
So, are all the Lotus gremlins still present or is this a myth?
Any idea what the respective performance figures are? I know the 2 seat Elan has very respectable performance for its era and legendary handling. I've always liked the look (and the price!) of the +2's but never knew if the driving experience backed those up.
For the Excel, I'd consider its main rival to be a 944 S2, which has a healthy power advantage at 211hp, but presumably has a rather more teutonic build than the Lotus...
I had looked at the possibility of buying an Excel before (then as strictly as an only car and ruled out due to the need to carry stuff like fully grown passengers and muddy mountian bikes!) and from what I can remeber they vary quite a lot, but if you get the right era they were redesigned by Toyota and came with a galvanised chasis?
So, are all the Lotus gremlins still present or is this a myth?
Any idea what the respective performance figures are? I know the 2 seat Elan has very respectable performance for its era and legendary handling. I've always liked the look (and the price!) of the +2's but never knew if the driving experience backed those up.
For the Excel, I'd consider its main rival to be a 944 S2, which has a healthy power advantage at 211hp, but presumably has a rather more teutonic build than the Lotus...
All Excels have Toyota gearbox, diff, brakes. I'm pretty sure all Excels have a galvanised chassis as well.
Performance wise,
180 BHP for the SE spec engine, 0-60 is something like 6.8s. You do have to thrash it though - nearly all the torque comes in above 3000rpm.
A big disadvantage is that they're not getting any newer, so many of them have been bodged in some way or another, especially electrically.
Another really really big disadvantage is that the cost of rebuilding a blown Excel engine (speaking from experience) is bloody astronomical - I think this is what is keeping the prices down.
As a guide to running costs, my first Excel, which depreciated from £3500 down to zero in the time I had it, worked out at 50-odd pence per mile over 20000 miles.
Performance wise,
180 BHP for the SE spec engine, 0-60 is something like 6.8s. You do have to thrash it though - nearly all the torque comes in above 3000rpm.
A big disadvantage is that they're not getting any newer, so many of them have been bodged in some way or another, especially electrically.
Another really really big disadvantage is that the cost of rebuilding a blown Excel engine (speaking from experience) is bloody astronomical - I think this is what is keeping the prices down.
As a guide to running costs, my first Excel, which depreciated from £3500 down to zero in the time I had it, worked out at 50-odd pence per mile over 20000 miles.
Can anyone explain where the Eclat fits in? I assumed it was just the predescor to the Excel, but theres a '1992 eclat' on autotrader at the moment??
Ideally I want the smallest and quickest of the variants as I'm really after a sportscar rather than a GT. I'm guessing the Excel fits the requirment the best as I'm not brave enough to try and maintain an esprit I don't think!
Ideally I want the smallest and quickest of the variants as I'm really after a sportscar rather than a GT. I'm guessing the Excel fits the requirment the best as I'm not brave enough to try and maintain an esprit I don't think!
The car on Autotrader is an Excel...they've simply described it wrongly.
The Excel was a development of the Eclat, using a fair few Toyota components. It was originally called the Eclat Excel, before the Eclat bit was dropped.
To be honest, if you are looking for a sports car rather than a GT, I think you might be disappointed with either an Excel or a Plus 2. Neither is all that quick by modern standards (a Renault Clio 182 or Seat Leon Cupra would leave either of them for dead). The Excel is reasonably reliable provided you take care of the engine, but at the end of the day it's still a fairly old car, so things will go wrong. The Plus 2 is a very old car and would need constant fettling as a daily driver. Bear in mind that both are on old fashioned Weber/Dellorto carburettors rather than modern electronic fuel injection, so you can expect low 20's mpg if you drive them reasonably briskly.
The top end of your budget would stretch to an Elise, which would be much more reliable and cheap to run, but not cheap on insurance.
A Series 3 nat. asp. Esprit would be not be significantly less reliable than an Excel (same engine is the expensive and fragile bit of both of them, provided you learn to do your own electrics!) and would be considerably easier to sell on in the future - the market for Excels is pretty limited!
Alternatively, I see you are asking questions in the Kit Car forum about GTM's? These would give similar performance to an Elise, modern economy and reliability, and cheap insurance through the kit specialists...
The Excel was a development of the Eclat, using a fair few Toyota components. It was originally called the Eclat Excel, before the Eclat bit was dropped.
To be honest, if you are looking for a sports car rather than a GT, I think you might be disappointed with either an Excel or a Plus 2. Neither is all that quick by modern standards (a Renault Clio 182 or Seat Leon Cupra would leave either of them for dead). The Excel is reasonably reliable provided you take care of the engine, but at the end of the day it's still a fairly old car, so things will go wrong. The Plus 2 is a very old car and would need constant fettling as a daily driver. Bear in mind that both are on old fashioned Weber/Dellorto carburettors rather than modern electronic fuel injection, so you can expect low 20's mpg if you drive them reasonably briskly.
The top end of your budget would stretch to an Elise, which would be much more reliable and cheap to run, but not cheap on insurance.
A Series 3 nat. asp. Esprit would be not be significantly less reliable than an Excel (same engine is the expensive and fragile bit of both of them, provided you learn to do your own electrics!) and would be considerably easier to sell on in the future - the market for Excels is pretty limited!
Alternatively, I see you are asking questions in the Kit Car forum about GTM's? These would give similar performance to an Elise, modern economy and reliability, and cheap insurance through the kit specialists...
Edited by Sam_68 on Monday 16th October 21:09
I can probably speak for both as i currently have an elan +2S130 and did have an elite (excel predecessor with similar engine, but without the toyota bits unfortunately). If you want a sports car the elan +2 will be much closer to you requirements. Although not straight line fast by todays standards, it is still very competitive on a twisty road or on track. I can keep up with standard Elises on track days in my mildly modded +2.
The Elite/Eclat/Excel range are much bigger cars - and feel it. They do however still handle very well and can be a useful track day car. Performance is again not quick by todays standards and in my opinion not as quick as an elan (of any type) on any sort of twisty road.
Maintenance-wise Elans do like a bit of TLC as with all cars 35+ years old, but if you get one with a rebuilt engine and galvanised chassis and sensible suspension mods (UV joints in rear driveshafts for exmple), then it should be reliable, and at least they are simple to work on. My wife used our +2 as a daily driver and in her work for several years without problems. You could get a good sorted +2S for £7k.
The Excel should also be reliable if looked after but some engine parts are very expensive if you should need a full rebuild.
Both cars leak when subjected to rain, or even a heavy mist.
Hope this helps
S..
The Elite/Eclat/Excel range are much bigger cars - and feel it. They do however still handle very well and can be a useful track day car. Performance is again not quick by todays standards and in my opinion not as quick as an elan (of any type) on any sort of twisty road.
Maintenance-wise Elans do like a bit of TLC as with all cars 35+ years old, but if you get one with a rebuilt engine and galvanised chassis and sensible suspension mods (UV joints in rear driveshafts for exmple), then it should be reliable, and at least they are simple to work on. My wife used our +2 as a daily driver and in her work for several years without problems. You could get a good sorted +2S for £7k.
The Excel should also be reliable if looked after but some engine parts are very expensive if you should need a full rebuild.
Both cars leak when subjected to rain, or even a heavy mist.
Hope this helps
S..
If you are a hands on type, go for the plus2, they are a dream to drive (more stable and less twitchy compared to the 2 seater in my opinion) Light airy cockpit, more guages than you can shake a stick at and unlit switches dotted around the dash!! (Its called character, you either love it or hate it!) Having restored and lived with Elans on and off for 25 years I can whole heartedly recomend them, I always found that any journey was an "occasion" and the car put a smile on the faces of most onlookers. I never got stranded by mechanical probs however if left for a few weeks (on the drive, not garaged) there would be niggling electrical gremlins to sort.
have a look at www.lotuselan.net and research the car well, there are a fair few dogs with shiny paint out there!!
good luck
Mark
have a look at www.lotuselan.net and research the car well, there are a fair few dogs with shiny paint out there!!
good luck
Mark
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the comments!
I'm not expecting Elise pace from either and I don't think my budget (up to 7, but more comfortably 5.5k) would stretch to one really. Much as an esprit appeals I would immagine they aren't the most pristine examples in that price range and horror stories of having to remove the engine to do just about anything slightly disturb me.
I think I'd have to drive a +2 to decide whether I could live with its idiosyncracies (excuse the spelling!!) There are two main reasons I'm attracted to one. Firstly, as a kid I can remember seeing one in a book at school and thinking it was one the best looking cars I'd seen (might not go that far now, but its undoubtedly pretty) secondly, everyday on my dull suburban commute I see a well used looking white Elan +2 gliding past (any +2 owners on here live near Chelmsford?) so it kind of jogged my memory as a (vaguely) realistic daily driver.
I also love the 'baby supercar' looks of the Excel. When it comes to driving though, I can't help thinking a 944 S2 with 211bhp to play with might be more stimulating. But as an automotive engineer Colin Chapman is one of my heros and I kind of think I should own atleast own one Lotus before I die
On a more pragmatic note, the Excel's performance should be quite addequate and ABS, air con and a CD player might add to its everyday appeal.
As for the GTMs. Don't think I could afford a Libra, but a Coupe or K3 might appeal with a decent engine installation (not sure on the 'exciting' rear engined handling though!)
Thanks for the comments!
I'm not expecting Elise pace from either and I don't think my budget (up to 7, but more comfortably 5.5k) would stretch to one really. Much as an esprit appeals I would immagine they aren't the most pristine examples in that price range and horror stories of having to remove the engine to do just about anything slightly disturb me.
I think I'd have to drive a +2 to decide whether I could live with its idiosyncracies (excuse the spelling!!) There are two main reasons I'm attracted to one. Firstly, as a kid I can remember seeing one in a book at school and thinking it was one the best looking cars I'd seen (might not go that far now, but its undoubtedly pretty) secondly, everyday on my dull suburban commute I see a well used looking white Elan +2 gliding past (any +2 owners on here live near Chelmsford?) so it kind of jogged my memory as a (vaguely) realistic daily driver.
I also love the 'baby supercar' looks of the Excel. When it comes to driving though, I can't help thinking a 944 S2 with 211bhp to play with might be more stimulating. But as an automotive engineer Colin Chapman is one of my heros and I kind of think I should own atleast own one Lotus before I die
On a more pragmatic note, the Excel's performance should be quite addequate and ABS, air con and a CD player might add to its everyday appeal.
As for the GTMs. Don't think I could afford a Libra, but a Coupe or K3 might appeal with a decent engine installation (not sure on the 'exciting' rear engined handling though!)
Took the Lotus on a 'fun' run last weekend around the Welsh hills. Also there were a Ferrari 360 Modena, TVR Sagaris, Jag XKR conv., Lotus Exige S 240, TVR T350 & Tuscan etc. Some 40 sports cars in all on a 140m trip, almost all on twisty, demanding but dry roads. Rather than take the 'straighter line' through the bends I prefer to exploit the superb turn-in capability of the Lotus, this may have perplexed some of the other drivers who were receeding a little in my rear view mirror. A TVR T350 driver later commented extremely favourably (edited) on the cornering ability of the "little Lotus" in front of him. The only problem is my car is an... M100.
(please note that at no time was it necessary to exceed the speed limit or drive in an unsafe manner on these these bends).
(please note that at no time was it necessary to exceed the speed limit or drive in an unsafe manner on these these bends).
Edited by WoS on Thursday 19th October 12:44
WoS said:
Took the Lotus on a 'fun' run last weekend around the Welsh hills. Also there were a Ferrari 360 Modena, TVR Sagaris, Jag XKR conv., Lotus Exige S 240, TVR T350 & Tuscan etc. Some 40 sports cars in all on a 140m trip, almost all on twisty, demanding but dry roads. Rather than take the 'straighter line' through the bends I prefer to exploit the superb turn-in capability of the Lotus, this may have perplexed some of the other drivers who were receeding a little in my rear view mirror. A TVR T350 driver later commented extremely favourably (edited) on the cornering ability of the "little Lotus" in front of him. The only problem is my car is an... M100.
(please note that at no time was it necessary to exceed the speed limit or drive in an unsafe manner on these these bends).
(please note that at no time was it necessary to exceed the speed limit or drive in an unsafe manner on these these bends).
Edited by WoS on Thursday 19th October 12:44
Thought about an M100, but I've done FWD for the time being. Really missing the balance and throttle adjustability of my 924S, but fancy something a bit different. Hence, the Excel sprang to mind (and to a lesser extent the Elan +2)
Chris
The Excel does not have ABS but was available with A/C. I have owned both a Elan +2130 and an Éclat Riviera S2.2, both were great cars. For local runs on bendy roads the Elan was great fun. On longer straighter journeys the Éclat was surprisingly refined and when my children were smaller surprisingly practical. I am now on my 5th Lotus, so if you have never owned one you must experience the brand, as a driving tool to put a smile on your face very little comes close.
The Excel does not have ABS but was available with A/C. I have owned both a Elan +2130 and an Éclat Riviera S2.2, both were great cars. For local runs on bendy roads the Elan was great fun. On longer straighter journeys the Éclat was surprisingly refined and when my children were smaller surprisingly practical. I am now on my 5th Lotus, so if you have never owned one you must experience the brand, as a driving tool to put a smile on your face very little comes close.
piper said:
Chris
The Excel does not have ABS but was available with A/C. I have owned both a Elan +2130 and an Éclat Riviera S2.2, both were great cars. For local runs on bendy roads the Elan was great fun. On longer straighter journeys the Éclat was surprisingly refined and when my children were smaller surprisingly practical. I am now on my 5th Lotus, so if you have never owned one you must experience the brand, as a driving tool to put a smile on your face very little comes close.
The Excel does not have ABS but was available with A/C. I have owned both a Elan +2130 and an Éclat Riviera S2.2, both were great cars. For local runs on bendy roads the Elan was great fun. On longer straighter journeys the Éclat was surprisingly refined and when my children were smaller surprisingly practical. I am now on my 5th Lotus, so if you have never owned one you must experience the brand, as a driving tool to put a smile on your face very little comes close.
Hi Piper,
What were the +2's weaknesses on longer trips?
How would you rate the Excel as a sports car (as opposed to GT)? I'm not looking for Elise performance, but would like a good 50-70 time and some playful handling!
Chris
I don’t think the + 2 had any main weaknesses on the longer trips but mine was a +2S130 4 speed with the bullet gearbox. A better gearbox than the maxi based 5 speed, but on longer trips i.e. dual carriageways/motorways it could have done with the extra gear. The Eclat had a 5 speed gertrag box and this made all the difference on the motorway. The Elan was more nimble to drive because it was smaller and lighter, however the Eclat still had playful handling and wet roundabouts were particular favourites. A difficult one to recommend one over the other, the Elan is already a classic and will be the better investment but I think I could be happy with either and the best car for the budget would be the decider.
I don’t think the + 2 had any main weaknesses on the longer trips but mine was a +2S130 4 speed with the bullet gearbox. A better gearbox than the maxi based 5 speed, but on longer trips i.e. dual carriageways/motorways it could have done with the extra gear. The Eclat had a 5 speed gertrag box and this made all the difference on the motorway. The Elan was more nimble to drive because it was smaller and lighter, however the Eclat still had playful handling and wet roundabouts were particular favourites. A difficult one to recommend one over the other, the Elan is already a classic and will be the better investment but I think I could be happy with either and the best car for the budget would be the decider.
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