Elan, Elise or Esprit ?

[ultimasimon]

Hi all

I am after some advice from owners of the above. I have a dilemma - which Lotus?

I have been lurking on this forum for a while trying to sponge up as much info as possible, but I guess that unless one actually asks 'are they any good' I will never get to hear it first hand, so I am formally asking the collective for your views

I have always had a passion for British cars, and now I need to 'do' the Lotus thing, and properly. It's not so straight forward though because unfortunately for me, I need another adrenalin fix after the Ultima and I am thinking about building something which is a bit insane. Now here comes the tricky bit. I am torn between insane and sensible - an S4 Esprit - due to the tuning potential that the FI provides, or an Elise S1, with a bike engine conversion. I'm currently in talks with Jack at Holeshot, and have looked at the conversion kit which Z-cars provide. If I choose to go down this route by building it into the beautiful Elise, then I can get a car with more hp than the Ultima but half the weight I am sooo close to doing this, but it means rebuilding a perfectly good car to make an animal, and I actually feel quite nauseous about taking it all apart and the hassle of pioneering it etc. TBH the Elise is such a pretty and well engineered car I loathe the though of stripping and rebuilding it

So, this is what I think the reality of the three would be like:

Elan M100SE - a fantastic car all round, but the only things that give it a negative for me is the fact it's FWD, and that power/traction will be an issue past 200hp. I have read lots of reviews and everyone praises it, but I am not sure if I could live with it being FWD. I like the interior - the dash especially looks awesome and they are by all accounts a very comfortable car to live with.

Elise S1 - Its basic no frills interior would probably drive me nuts after a while, I think I might get bored with it in standard tune, BUT if it had a loony tune engine conversion then this wouldn't matter. I love the shape of this car, and best of all its RWD.

Esprit - Always always wanted one. I still lust after a perfect S1 (and there are two such cars on the classifieds at the moment) thanks to JB when I was 11 but that wedgey shape does it for me every time. An S1 would be a gentle lady but what are they like to live with? Or an S4 with some mild tuning work - I think 300hp is attainable relatively easily and safely, but wouldn't want to go too mad here.

Don't get me wrong I love all of these cars but I can only have one, and I'm actually loosing sleep thinking about it

I know about British build quality with the earlier cars etc, and the reliability is something I have no idea about with the Esprits. So if anyone could tell me their experiences, I would be very grateful as it will help me make my decision.

[cross-eyed-twit]

I have a modified S4. I spent about £3000 in modifying it and a few more generally looking after it. I would spend another £5000 on an uprated gearbox and clutch but havent got it. I have to take it a little easy with the power hikes I've made but i can live with it.
Esprits are fast but I don't know if they would compete with an Ultima ???
I track my car and am currently looking at treaded slicks as the road tyres, whilst good, simply don't compare.
I feel my car is too complicated with alarms, stereo, electric windows and such. I would rip it all out if the insurance company would let me.
As for livivng with it, I drove it every day for a year or so (I've had it for 6 years) and it started and ran every day. Petrol consumption is ok if you keep the right foot reigned in. They like being used, not sat on show in some air conditioned garage.
Maintenance is inexpensive if you find a good specialist. Dealer prices are pointlessly crippling.
They are hand made so not as robust as your average BMW and this might be annoying but thats british sportscars of that era for you.
Today I drove it and schoolboys jumped off the bus and came running up shouting 'cool car mate!'
Not many cars out there that have that effect.
plus the pop up headlights are the bees knees.

There are a couple of good forums but read the gumpf on :::
www.espritfactfile.com/
www.lotusespritworld.com/

In amonth when you havefinished then ask the silly questions (of which there are none really) and the community will respond. Generally everyone is more than willing to help, get involved and invite you out to events and stuff. You won't know what hit you! (Idon't know what the Ultima forums were like)

Anyway, my typing fingers are catching fire here!!!!


CET

[mike.griese]

ultimasimon said:

Hi all I am after some advice from owners of the above. I have a dilemma - which Lotus?

What are you going to do with the car? Track it? Daily driver? Race it? Babe
magnet?

What do you really really care about in a car? What can't you live without?

Mike

[rfoster]

Hi and welcome.
I've had all three that you're considering and my personal fav is the Elise. I think a lot of your decision will depend on what you'll be using the car for mainly - if it's a daily driver then the Elan and Esprit are more comfortable, though my Esprit broke down an awful lot (1990 NA Stevens Esprit.) That said if you're going to throw some decent money at a car the go the whole hog, get the Esprit. You can always sell if if you want to. I'm really glad I had one but was also glad to get it out of my system.
I've driven my Elises as daily cars for 4 years with no major problems at all, they've never let me down.
Give then all a drive and see what you fancy. I still dribble over Orange Esprit GT3's!
Best of luck,
Richard.

[ultimasimon]

Hi Dom and thankyou for your lengthy reply. I just re-read my post and it is a tad confusing. I was comparing a motorcycle-engined Elise to the Ultima, not the Esprit. The conversion is provided by two companies, Z-cars do a new chassis which will accept a Suzuki Hayabuse motorcycle engine and a reverse gearbox assembly, and Holeshot racing provided various stages of tune for this engine, ranging from 185 to 600hp

On the Esprit front, I thought that getting an S4 nearer to 300hp would be more than enough, and I certainly would not want to ruin the charactor that the car has by changing it into something that it isn't. I think I am already beginning to answer my own questions as I hold the Esprit in high respect I think I should try one anyway and find an alternative for an adrenalin rush.

[ultimasimon]

mike.griese said:

ultimasimon said: Hi all I am after some advice from owners of the above. I have a dilemma - which Lotus? What are you going to do with the car? Track it? Daily driver? Race it? Babe magnet? What do you really really care about in a car? What can't you live without? Mike

Hi Mike,

Would like to use it everyday and maybe the occasional track day.

Don't need it for a penis extension

What do I really care about in a car? How I feel when I drive it, and what the car gives back to the driver.

What can't you live without? Excitement - that feeling that makes you drive for 100 miles on a weekday for no good reason

[ultimasimon]

rfoster said:

Hi and welcome. I've had all three that you're considering and my personal fav is the Elise. I think a lot of your decision will depend on what you'll be using the car for mainly - if it's a daily driver then the Elan and Esprit are more comfortable, though my Esprit broke down an awful lot (1990 NA Stevens Esprit.) That said if you're going to throw some decent money at a car the go the whole hog, get the Esprit. You can always sell if if you want to. I'm really glad I had one but was also glad to get it out of my system. I've driven my Elises as daily cars for 4 years with no major problems at all, they've never let me down. Give then all a drive and see what you fancy. I still dribble over Orange Esprit GT3's! Best of luck, Richard.

I love the stance of the Elan, the fact it's available with a turbo, good visibility, excellent handling.. but not FWD, although I know I would still enjoy it.

I love the pre-Stevens shaped Esprit, but honestly I think I would feel like I am driving a museum piece and would be worried if it would break if I tried to use the power. Also 160bhp means that your averaged diesel could see it off the lights, although that is most definately not the point of ownership is it?

I very much like the S4 for all the reasons everyone else sems to, I have had a very brief drive in a V8, but as much as I loved the car, it needs to be a 'four-banger on boost' for me

"To achieve performance, first add lightness" I believe the quote goes.

Ooh I am really talking myself into an Esprit. Anyone care to put me off?

[paul_c]

I think theres a Turbotechnics supercharged elise S1 in the classifieds?

Dont feel bad about ripping an S1 apart, just buy a knackered one in the first place!

[cross-eyed-twit]

I have a decatted Esprit with a race chip, race exhaust and a few other mods and it sounds terrific. It goes well and is easier to drive round town with the sporty ecu. There are weaknesses like the é2nd gear synchro but if you drive with mechanical sympathy then it is no problem.
I track mine occasionally and its a lot of fun.
If you do bite the bullet just make sure you do your homework as a dog is more hassle and will ruin the experience. I have had to spend to keep it tip top but servicing for a ferrari is 3 times as much I think. The Esprit will give so much feedback it is astonishing. I expect you have seen this with the Ultima though.
all the best
cet

[ultimasimon]

cross-eyed-twit said:

I have a decatted Esprit with a race chip, race exhaust and a few other mods and it sounds terrific. It goes well and is easier to drive round town with the sporty ecu. There are weaknesses like the é2nd gear synchro but if you drive with mechanical sympathy then it is no problem. I track mine occasionally and its a lot of fun. If you do bite the bullet just make sure you do your homework as a dog is more hassle and will ruin the experience. I have had to spend to keep it tip top but servicing for a ferrari is 3 times as much I think. The Esprit will give so much feedback it is astonishing. I expect you have seen this with the Ultima though. all the best cet

Thanks again for your input. I am pretty much decided that I want an Esprit. As much as friends have previously suggested that I buy a Ferrari they don't light me up like a Lotus does; call me a brand bitch but I am very loyal to British marques. I have a mad streak that needs satisfying but a bike will fulfill that urge I am sure. I have already accepted the fact that I will have to reserve funds for this car, but tbh, I have no problem doing so as long as the car returns the favour in keeping me happy, which I am sure it will.

I still have the dilemma of which Esprit to choose, as I really love the basic 'in your face' S1, but find the rest just as attractive, especially the S4 as every one rates it as the drivers choice of the 4-pot.

[karluk29]

hi

quick reply from myself ha ha ha

i have owned a modified elan and a much talked about (and sometimes abused) lotus esprit gt3

elan:- loved it to death, they are great basically and if you throw the chip in it or just a bleed valve, turn it up to 0.9bar and it will keep up with scoobies and jap stuff up to around 100mph+ not a problem, and you can throw the roof down, as for maintenance, its jap, it doesnt break alot lol

esprit - well i love mine, gt3 needs to be chipped though, but when it is its great, faster than the elan, but you get alot more attention aswell along the way. as for maintenance if you know where to go its CHEAP really CHEAP.

and im assuming you own a ultima,,,,well err OMFG PROPER CAR, they are gorgeous and i dont think any lotus is going to keep up with it.

as for conversions etc etc,,,,what about the exige with the TT or civic conversion (think thats correct anyway), if i remember the TT conversion tops the exige out at 180mph

[ultimasimon]

karluk29 said:

hi quick reply from myself ha ha ha i have owned a modified elan and a much talked about (and sometimes abused) lotus esprit gt3 elan:- loved it to death, they are great basically and if you throw the chip in it or just a bleed valve, turn it up to 0.9bar and it will keep up with scoobies and jap stuff up to around 100mph+ not a problem, and you can throw the roof down, as for maintenance, its jap, it doesnt break alot lol esprit - well i love mine, gt3 needs to be chipped though, but when it is its great, faster than the elan, but you get alot more attention aswell along the way. as for maintenance if you know where to go its CHEAP really CHEAP. and im assuming you own a ultima,,,,well err OMFG PROPER CAR, they are gorgeous and i dont think any lotus is going to keep up with it. as for conversions etc etc,,,,what about the exige with the TT or civic conversion (think thats correct anyway), if i remember the TT conversion tops the exige out at 180mph

Hi and thanks for the reply. I am trying to decide what next - I have done the Ultima thing and it was sold last year, won't be going back. Would like to try something completely different and I think I will go down the Esprit route as long as I can find a good independent whom I can trust to maintain the crucial bits.

I looked at the TT convertion you mentioned, but was contemplating a Hayabusa motorcyle conversion instead. I know a company that can supply me with an engine which weighs in at about 70kgs and running 28psi boost produces 600hp, so it would be close on 600hp/600kgs, but then again it wouldn't really be a Lotus anymore and the cost including the car would be back in Ultima money. So I will probably just get a scary bike; its cheaper by far. Middle-aged crisis? Not much

So I am going to start looking for an Esprit in a couple of months, and leave it 'as is' until I can fully appreciate the car in its own splendor. I guess I am open to looking for an SE/GT3/S4, we will see as the summer months always bring them out of their garages

I don't want to try a V8 just yet, I would like to look forward to that if I have a good experience with the 4 cylinder model.

Oh and yes I know, I need to change my name

[anonymous-user]

ultimasimon said:

Esprit - Always always wanted one. I still lust after a perfect S1 (and there are two such cars on the classifieds at the moment) thanks to JB when I was 11 but that wedgey shape does it for me every time. An S1 would be a gentle lady but what are they like to live with? Or an S4 with some mild tuning work - I think 300hp is attainable relatively easily and safely, but wouldn't want to go too mad here.

Original Giugiaro Esprit without the turbo body additions is one of the ultimate Lotus cars. The trick is to find one that's been well looked after. I would avoid cars before the S3 for the following reasons,
2.2 engine was properly sorted by the early/mid 1980s.
Superb throttle response. Makes great use of its modest power.
Superb balance and grip on the road.
Galvanised turbo chassis.
Rear wheel location with double wishbones (to take strain off drive shafts).
Interior trim was better, either in half or full leather.
Air flow through engine bay improved.
BBS wheels look good on the car.
As posted elsewhere; the more Toyota bits involved, the better the Lotus!
IMO it makes more sense to buy a better car than to tune a lesser one.

[JonRB]

All 3 are very different cars, so the choice is simple - get one of each.

[ultimasimon]

5USA said:

ultimasimon said: Esprit - Always always wanted one. I still lust after a perfect S1 (and there are two such cars on the classifieds at the moment) thanks to JB when I was 11 but that wedgey shape does it for me every time. An S1 would be a gentle lady but what are they like to live with? Or an S4 with some mild tuning work - I think 300hp is attainable relatively easily and safely, but wouldn't want to go too mad here. Original Giugiaro Esprit without the turbo body additions is one of the ultimate Lotus cars. The trick is to find one that's been well looked after. I would avoid cars before the S3 for the following reasons, 2.2 engine was properly sorted by the early/mid 1980s. Superb throttle response. Makes great use of its modest power. Superb balance and grip on the road. Galvanised turbo chassis. Rear wheel location with double wishbones (to take strain off drive shafts). Interior trim was better, either in half or full leather. Air flow through engine bay improved. BBS wheels look good on the car. As posted elsewhere; the more Toyota bits involved, the better the Lotus! IMO it makes more sense to buy a better car than to tune a lesser one.

Thanks for that. I love the Giugiaro shape equally, I used to know a guy called 'Nutty Neil' that had a mint S2 n/a in blue..his father owned an insurance company. Sadly I was only 18 and so was he but that also has a lot to do with finding an Esprit

If you read this thread from top to bottom, everyone is recommending a different model

I wish I could afford all three, but that is not the case. Unfortunately for me I have always been an impulsive buyer, and if it feels right I will probably buy it, after all I can always trade and try another. I am awaiting a contract sign off in just over a month so I am going to view and drive a few after that. I have driven many differing performance cars, but sadly never a Lotus. I also thought briefly about a Carlton, but the Esprit just has to be tested first.

Thanks for all your inputs, I have a lot of reading up to do

[Dico]

Hi, sound like you,ve made your mind up and are opting for the Esprit.
However have a peek at this first -

http://lotuselancentral.com/forum/vie

Nice friendly Elan M100 forum. The guy in the above link has done some amazing things to his Elan.
A Quaife ATB should resolve any fwd worries you have.

Just enjoy whatever you choose.

[S Works]

Simon,

I'm a latecomer to the thread but it's interesting to read your thoughts and choices. For me, the solution is a no-brainer. Buy a cheap S1 and take it to the guys at Maidstone Sports Cars for an engine transplant.

www.maidstonesportscars.co.uk/services/lotusHPE.asp

220bhp may not sound much but in a 730kg car it's really quite exceptional. I've heard about the bike engine being mooted for transfer into an Elise but have not yet heard or seen one which is tried and tested. For various reasons I'm not sure its the best option.

The MSC kit has been developed and tested by guys who raced Elises with this engine and with upwards of 100 cars converted and a year's warranty it's perhaps the best value for money out there if you want a banshee rice-burner in the back.

When you consider that you can pick up a donor car now for around £8k, spend 2k on suspension and brake mods, then 10k on the engine conversion and have a car which will murder 911's, 360's and TVR's yet handle as deftly as the original car you'll struggle to find a better option IMvHO. And then consider that there are converted cars available now with all this done for less than 20k.... gotta be worth your consideration.

As lovely as they are, you know an Esprit's just going to break down on you

[Pat H]

I'd get a NA S3 Esprit. The last ones had a HC motor with about 180bhp.

I've had a S3 Turbo HC and it was an absolute delight to own, but the laggy turbo motor irritated me and all the skirts, spoilers and louvres are a bit much.

If I had to do it again, I'd get the NA S3, which has most of the purity of the S1 and S2 styling, but with the galvanised chassis and the twin wishbone rear suspension.

In all honesty, the 210/215bhp Giugiaro Turbos are no longer sufficiently fast compared to modern machinery to justify the turbo lag and the styling issues. But that's just my opinion.

The handling and steering are reasons enough to buy an early Esprit, and the best early Esprit is the NA S3 HC.

[JonRB]

Pat H said:

I'd get a NA S3 Esprit.

Pat H said:

If I had to do it again, I'd get the NA S3

Pat H said:

the best early Esprit is the NA S3 HC.

Ok, ok, we get the message!

[Pat H]

JonRB said:

Pat H said: I'd get a NA S3 Esprit. Pat H said: If I had to do it again, I'd get the NA S3 Pat H said: the best early Esprit is the NA S3 HC. Ok, ok, we get the message!

Just in case anyone wasn't listening, Id get a NA Esprit S3 HC....