Have Proton been good for Lotus?
Discussion
I'm trying to work this out, but have the feeling that Proton have been disasterous for Lotus. Under their ownership we've seen projects cancelled or delayed, random shifts in production half way across the world and then back again, and a distinct lack of evolution in Lotus' line up.
Four years or so ago, Lotus were boasting that they could take a car from concept to showroom in eighteen months. We currently expect the Esprit to arrive in approximately two year's time. VVA may be clever engineering (and possibly very useful to license to other manufacturers - which may be more the point), but it hasn't seemed to have helped get new designs out of the door. In fact, I'm not clear how useful a flexible platform (that must have cost a lot to develop) is to a manufacturer that has a very limited range of vehicles. In the mean time we get the GT, which appears (so far, based on rumours) to be a warmed over Elise for people who are scared off by the Exige.
On the positive side, the US market appears to be doing well and the Toyota transplant has not thrown up any major tales of woe. The Elise seems to be maturing nicely.
So - has Lotus been in the doldrums, been working hard in the background, or been held back by owners who don't quite know what to do with the marque?
And... am I making it up that Ford's new GT40 may have had some Lotus input?
Four years or so ago, Lotus were boasting that they could take a car from concept to showroom in eighteen months. We currently expect the Esprit to arrive in approximately two year's time. VVA may be clever engineering (and possibly very useful to license to other manufacturers - which may be more the point), but it hasn't seemed to have helped get new designs out of the door. In fact, I'm not clear how useful a flexible platform (that must have cost a lot to develop) is to a manufacturer that has a very limited range of vehicles. In the mean time we get the GT, which appears (so far, based on rumours) to be a warmed over Elise for people who are scared off by the Exige.
On the positive side, the US market appears to be doing well and the Toyota transplant has not thrown up any major tales of woe. The Elise seems to be maturing nicely.
So - has Lotus been in the doldrums, been working hard in the background, or been held back by owners who don't quite know what to do with the marque?
And... am I making it up that Ford's new GT40 may have had some Lotus input?
As always it is some and some. When I worked there Proton were a good owner rarely getting involved and letting lotus do it's thing. Against this were a year’s were of orders for the elise and exciting derivatives like the exige, 340R, S2 and M250 being developed.
Proton mainly acquired Lotus for the engineering expertise something Malaysia didn't have. They previously relied on Mitsubishi cast offs. So you can't blame them for the strategy they took re the engineering business. This is all against a backdrop of serious over production in the car business. Ford were making loses while GM and Daimler were struggling too. Upshot was projects were moved in house at major manufacturers and halo cars and specialist jobs (Lotus speciality) were cancelled or moved in house. Lotus also had projects that pi$$ed off some major car companies adding to the woes.
On the car side things aren't as rosy with the US as they should be. Exchange rates have wrecked profits - in fact Lotus announced a loss the other week and sited the strong dollar. Lotus failed to renew contracts with many European dealers leaving gaps in the market. Now they have to unpick all this to guarantee a future. Proton take a bigger interest in managing Lotus now and have withdrawn a lot of the autonomy. But owing to losses and silly decisions and failures on Lotus’s part I'm not sure I'd have done anything different in their place.
Europa I think is mainly for the US - Elise has exemptions from federal requirements but these are temporary. With the delay in the new Esprit v8 they have nothing else to put into US markets. Standard business there is 10yr contracts with dealers.... so something new must be on the way.
Most people wouldn't credit quite how expensive engineering a car is from scratch. Trying to find a partner or someone to piggyback development off is the lifeblood of a small manufacturer like Lotus. Only other way is to substantially increase volumes and for that you need dealers and higher perceived quality.... which costs. All a viscous circle.
Proton mainly acquired Lotus for the engineering expertise something Malaysia didn't have. They previously relied on Mitsubishi cast offs. So you can't blame them for the strategy they took re the engineering business. This is all against a backdrop of serious over production in the car business. Ford were making loses while GM and Daimler were struggling too. Upshot was projects were moved in house at major manufacturers and halo cars and specialist jobs (Lotus speciality) were cancelled or moved in house. Lotus also had projects that pi$$ed off some major car companies adding to the woes.
On the car side things aren't as rosy with the US as they should be. Exchange rates have wrecked profits - in fact Lotus announced a loss the other week and sited the strong dollar. Lotus failed to renew contracts with many European dealers leaving gaps in the market. Now they have to unpick all this to guarantee a future. Proton take a bigger interest in managing Lotus now and have withdrawn a lot of the autonomy. But owing to losses and silly decisions and failures on Lotus’s part I'm not sure I'd have done anything different in their place.
Europa I think is mainly for the US - Elise has exemptions from federal requirements but these are temporary. With the delay in the new Esprit v8 they have nothing else to put into US markets. Standard business there is 10yr contracts with dealers.... so something new must be on the way.
Most people wouldn't credit quite how expensive engineering a car is from scratch. Trying to find a partner or someone to piggyback development off is the lifeblood of a small manufacturer like Lotus. Only other way is to substantially increase volumes and for that you need dealers and higher perceived quality.... which costs. All a viscous circle.
Thanks for the excellent reply - I hadn't thought about the Europa being targetted at the US market, but of course that makes a lot of sense.
I'm not being down on Lotus, just slightly frustrated that they seem to be a long way from producing the sort of car I would like, and the sort of car I'd expect them to build.
I'm not being down on Lotus, just slightly frustrated that they seem to be a long way from producing the sort of car I would like, and the sort of car I'd expect them to build.
I would have thought Lotus cars is probably in better shape today than it has ever been. There's been a string of owners and many cancelled models over the last 20 years but Elise is what's kept the ship afloat for a long time now.
Although Lotus has never been owned by Toyota (it's been in bed with just about eveyone else!) it's probably the Toyota connection which has been most consistently beneficial over the years, bringing good off the shelf engineering and improving the cars as an ownership prospect in a competitive market.
Lotus Excel - many Toyota parts in the Mk 2 version of Eclat.
Lotus Esprit - some Toyota bits, notably rear lamp cluster on Peter Stevens facelift. (UK cars have lamps stamped with "Toyota" although this had to be polished off for USA).
Lotus Elise - loads of Toyota in the latest versions.
Although Lotus has never been owned by Toyota (it's been in bed with just about eveyone else!) it's probably the Toyota connection which has been most consistently beneficial over the years, bringing good off the shelf engineering and improving the cars as an ownership prospect in a competitive market.
Lotus Excel - many Toyota parts in the Mk 2 version of Eclat.
Lotus Esprit - some Toyota bits, notably rear lamp cluster on Peter Stevens facelift. (UK cars have lamps stamped with "Toyota" although this had to be polished off for USA).
Lotus Elise - loads of Toyota in the latest versions.
Without knowing the internal politics of the situation Toyota have been the obvious company to partner Lotus. They have been exchanging technology and expertise for many years. Toyota also have a 20 something % share of Lotus.
What we all need is an investor that will invest in Lotus the way that VAG invested in LAmbo and Bugatti. Personally I dont want VAG involved with Lotus, all the safety gear that VAG insist on in all cars would weigh a Lotus down. It extended the Veyron project for 5 years, but Lotus needs that kind of investment.
Personally the holy grail would be for Honda to get involved. Interesting designs and fantastic engines. The synergy with Lotus inteligence would be fantastic.
Lotus need a comprehensive model line up from the track car, the Elise/ Exige, the Europa then the Esprit.
What we all need is an investor that will invest in Lotus the way that VAG invested in LAmbo and Bugatti. Personally I dont want VAG involved with Lotus, all the safety gear that VAG insist on in all cars would weigh a Lotus down. It extended the Veyron project for 5 years, but Lotus needs that kind of investment.
Personally the holy grail would be for Honda to get involved. Interesting designs and fantastic engines. The synergy with Lotus inteligence would be fantastic.
Lotus need a comprehensive model line up from the track car, the Elise/ Exige, the Europa then the Esprit.
Lotus also did do a very good job with the vanquish, but the seriosly under quoted the budjet for the AML project, so AML have done there own thing since, as Lotus cannot compete. Lotus are still in debt due to the ****** project (Vanquish), and the project didn't involve the engine!
GeeDee said:
Toyota own no part of Lotus these days, allthough 22% is still own by Romano Artioli (Bugatti), and that personally owned too.
I thought Proton bought out the remaining Artioli stake a year or so ago. I seem to remember them doing that shortly before Kiam coming in...
ErnestM
GeeDee said:
Lotus also did do a very good job with the vanquish, but the seriosly under quoted the budjet for the AML project, so AML have done there own thing since, as Lotus cannot compete. Lotus are still in debt due to the ****** project (Vanquish), and the project didn't involve the engine!
You are very well informed - lotus were the cheapest bid for the project by 30% and it quickly became clear they couldn't do it at the price and losses followed. Rumours were Ford was sniffing around.... they lost interest in a Lotus purchase pretty quickly. Not clever
Artioli sold 10% to Proton pretty quickly after they took over. The remaining stake has also since been sold to Proton.
interesting stuff, although i dont think ford would bid for the company they might be interest sure but the timings not there, ford have big problems stateside with credit ratings, pensions healthcare etc theres a real possibilty one of the big 3 yank automakers could go under, theres no way they'd be flashing money round trying to buy up a small company like lotus, the money might be small change to them but the winds across the altlantic certainly arnt in favour of takeovers right now
personally i dont think proton have done to badly they have invested money in lotus, and the marque has been relativley well cared for, the only gripes one could honestly have is they lack the resouces to pump serious cash into lotus, but even that's no gurantee gm pumped a whole wodge of greenbacks in, and the result was a huge balls up that almost broke the company
>> Edited by peter450 on Wednesday 16th November 23:56
personally i dont think proton have done to badly they have invested money in lotus, and the marque has been relativley well cared for, the only gripes one could honestly have is they lack the resouces to pump serious cash into lotus, but even that's no gurantee gm pumped a whole wodge of greenbacks in, and the result was a huge balls up that almost broke the company
>> Edited by peter450 on Wednesday 16th November 23:56
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