Lotus - Back to Basics or Bust

[RFD111]

When was Lotus a success - when Colin Chapman, Chief Exec, was in charge. What do you need for success in this game: visionary, real innovator, risk taker & leader

Chapman: Y, Y, Y, Y
Kimberly: Y, N, N, Y
Bahar: Y, N, Y, N

DRB need to find a brilliant CE (where), invest money (circa £500m), allow time for payback (circa 15 years) OR sell up what assets are left, walk out of the game & pass the baton on to yet another bunch of wasters.

[Frimley111R]

Back to basics = Certain failure, unquestionably. This is not 1970.

[Toaster]

Frimley111R said:

Back to basics = Certain failure, unquestionably. This is not 1970.

Spot on

[WayneB]

What Lotus needs is another "it" car, something original that hasnt been done yet by any other manufacturer.

Seven/it car
Turbo Esprit/it car
Elise/it car

Trying to compete head on with Ferrari, Lamborghini,Aston Martin, McLaren and Porsche was an obvious suicide mission for the company, the money needed for this was obviously not there in the required quantities to pull of such a move.

No money means they will have to resort to guerrilla tactics,take there competitors by complete surprise, gaining customers one by one.

I have a distinct feeling Caterham is going to rock the automotive world with an it car shortly.

Edited by WayneB on Wednesday 17th October 22:42

Edited by WayneB on Wednesday 17th October 22:42

Edited by WayneB on Wednesday 17th October 22:44

[PiB]

SUV?


With extruded aluminum chassis using the latest proprietary alloys, locking diffs, some other techy nonsense that actually works?

[Frimley111R]

WayneB said:

What Lotus needs is another "it" car, something original that hasnt been done yet by any other manufacturer.

Seven/it car
Turbo Esprit/it car
Elise/it car

Trying to compete head on with Ferrari, Lamborghini,Aston Martin, McLaren and Porsche was an obvious suicide mission for the company, the money needed for this was obviously not there in the required quantities to pull of such a move.

I have a distinct feeling Caterham is going to rock the automotive world with an it car shortly.

An 'it' car is much much harder tob achieve, although not impossible) due to the competitive nature of car development these days. The 'it' must not be an Elise or Lotus 7 type car though. The world has moved on. To sell in decent volumes it needs a car 'your mum' can drive. That's what 99% of people want.

Lotus never aimed to compete with Ferarri, Lambo or Aston. Its key competitor is arguable stronger than all of them put together - Porsche.

I can't see Caterham doing much. They are still very small and have minimal/zero knowledge and experience in manufacturing a realistic production car. Essentially all they have produced are race cars.

[bobo]

well you would need something that you could get into all markets quickly and as cheaply as possible ...

surely reusing the evora chassis would allow that?

just make sure there have been enough small changes so the marketing dept can actually call it a new car.

considering whats going on at the moment the costing of a completely new product from scratch would scare the bjesus out of me if i were on the board.

[EvoraEvora]

Toaster said:

Frimley111R said:

Back to basics = Certain failure, unquestionably. This is not 1970.

Spot on

You do realise that they are producing Jackst at the moment, don't you?

It is far easier and expedient to bring a new minmilist sportscar to market than a leviathan supercar - even if longterm the leviathan makes more financial sense - survival is key..

[Toaster]

bobo said:

well you would need something that you could get into all markets quickly and as cheaply as possible ...

surely reusing the evora chassis would allow that?

just make sure there have been enough small changes so the marketing dept can actually call it a new car.

considering whats going on at the moment the costing of a completely new product from scratch would scare the bjesus out of me if i were on the board.

That was always the plan for the Chassis http://www.lotuscars.com/engineering/vehicle-platf...

[Toaster]

WayneB said:

I have a distinct feeling Caterham is going to rock the automotive world with an it car shortly.

]

Interesting comment two things, the first Simon Nearn tried to do this about ten years ago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIrtwZ-DV58 Caterham were then sold and have been sold again so whilst the name Caterham exists it is not the same company. Under Ansar Ali there was a web site to input what people thought would be a new sports car for Caterham maybe this will be an out put from it.

If you take the idea from the video of a "cheap" carbon tub and a price point of £20k sure you will get a hard core car and it would be stunning performance, however when you also listen when the 21 was built the doors did not have wind down windows where the elise S1 did and the reason it would have cost Caterham £500k to develop. But if a new sports car is produced what cost will this be ? I cant imagine it will be cheap the sp300/r is about £72k

Now going back to the notion of a Carbon tub Mclaren have done this (not make a car for £20k) but can manufacture the Tubs far faster and cheaper than they did for the old F1 hence the cost of the new Mclarens have fallen in comparison.

So if Caterham produce a new car which has been suggested i doubt it will be from Dartford and cost a reasonable amount of money

[ravon]

Frimley, do you think that Tony Shute and the other "Lotus Lifers" now at Caterham would have the knowledge and ability to surprise us all again ?

[Toaster]

EvoraEvora said:

It is far easier and expedient to bring a new minmilist sportscar to market than a leviathan supercar - even if longterm the leviathan makes more financial sense - survival is key..

Realy, its easy to produce is it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIrtwZ-DV58

[EvoraEvora]

Toaster said:

EvoraEvora said:

It is far easier and expedient to bring a new minmilist sportscar to market than a leviathan supercar - even if longterm the leviathan makes more financial sense - survival is key..

Realy, its easy to produce is it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIrtwZ-DV58

If it's the right car - a big YES - and Lotus have the knowledge to do it

[The Pits]

Elise with the new toyota/subaru GT86 flat-four anyone?

200 bhp. Light, rev-hungry, bullet proof, distinctive and set low in the chassis. Handling alone would be beyond sublime.

[ravon]

Yes "The Pits", brilliant ! Nice flat engine low in the car, assuming the transmission is by transaxle and not "under" the engine.

[Frimley111R]

EvoraEvora said:

Toaster said:

Frimley111R said:

Back to basics = Certain failure, unquestionably. This is not 1970.

Spot on

You do realise that they are producing Jackst at the moment, don't you?

It is far easier and expedient to bring a new minmilist sportscar to market than a leviathan supercar - even if longterm the leviathan makes more financial sense - survival is key..

You do realise that this won't make any more, right? What's the point of making small cheap basic sports cars that lose money? You know the Elise, well.....

[Frimley111R]

ravon said:

Frimley, do you think that Tony Shute and the other "Lotus Lifers" now at Caterham would have the knowledge and ability to surprise us all again ?

They may do but car manufacturing has moved a long way since their heyday. I'd put more money on some of the new staff at Lotus doing a 'suprise' tbh. We'll wait and see but ideally both companies would do it

[The Pits]

ravon said:

Yes "The Pits", brilliant ! Nice flat engine low in the car, assuming the transmission is by transaxle and not "under" the engine.

Agreed.

We can only live in hope.

I still believe there's a market for small, light, efficient sports cars. There simply has to be! Putting status and all that aside, they are the most fun to drive. No fancy electronics just good, ingeniously simple engineering, pure unassisted steering. The Elise recipe is still fantastic for those willing to compromise for driving pleasure.

But they need to find a way to make it cheaper and lighter. Maybe this is impossible?

[Kolbenkopp]

If they try get upmarket they will need more money and a patient investor and, as the OP points out, someone exceptional leading the whole show.

I wonder if it is not time for them to make some money out their past. Perhaps resurecting e.g. the original Elan? Not sure how close the ties are with Toyota, but take GT86 running gear and stick a retro-modern Elan DHC body on top, optimise the handling, make it lighter and simpler. A bit like what Ginetta do with the MX5. Looking at used prices for Elans there certainly seems to be a demand for that type of car.

I can hear it already "never will be able to compete with the MX-5". On a value for money base, impossible, agreed. But the MX-5 has an image problem that can be exploited.

[PiB]

And from Harris's review and other remarks on PH's the current MX-5 isn't what it used to be. By the way the Elise/Exige was never compliant with USA's bumper rules and had to get a waiver. Not sure how easy it is to get a waiver these days so that could be a problem for that market.

I would be excited about a 4x4 elise/exige rally inspired car! Maybe Suzuki or Subaru drivetrain?

Also if the limited edition models actually had some significant differences would be nice. A pricey carbon or aluminum body. Carbon brakes? (not sure if they would actually work on such a light car) While such options would sell very few it would create genuinely unique cars for a few enthusiasts. Top trumps - max power and so forth? Frankly, yes.