what SHOULD Lotus make?
Discussion
Ok folks, there appears to be turmoil aplenty at Lotus at the mo.
my question is, if you were the CEO, what would your strategy be? What would you make?
I've been thinking about this, and it's a tough one. I really dont know.
I would like to see them making cars that sold on performance. I mean the traditional Lotus fortes of lightweight, great handling, steering feel etc. but chuck in some firecracker powerplants, then that could be one hell of a USP.
However, whether they could find enough buyers and do it profitably, I havent a clue. Do they really need to add shagpile carpets, cupholders, and air-scarfs to tempt buyers? maybe they do.
Any business brains care to throw an idea or two out?
my question is, if you were the CEO, what would your strategy be? What would you make?
I've been thinking about this, and it's a tough one. I really dont know.
I would like to see them making cars that sold on performance. I mean the traditional Lotus fortes of lightweight, great handling, steering feel etc. but chuck in some firecracker powerplants, then that could be one hell of a USP.
However, whether they could find enough buyers and do it profitably, I havent a clue. Do they really need to add shagpile carpets, cupholders, and air-scarfs to tempt buyers? maybe they do.
Any business brains care to throw an idea or two out?
JakeR said:
Ok folks, there appears to be turmoil aplenty at Lotus at the mo.
my question is, if you were the CEO, what would your strategy be? What would you make?
I've been thinking about this, and it's a tough one. I really dont know.
I would like to see them making cars that sold on performance. I mean the traditional Lotus fortes of lightweight, great handling, steering feel etc. but chuck in some firecracker powerplants, then that could be one hell of a USP.
However, whether they could find enough buyers and do it profitably, I havent a clue. Do they really need to add shagpile carpets, cupholders, and air-scarfs to tempt buyers? maybe they do.
Any business brains care to throw an idea or two out?
my priority would be a fast, good looking, micro city car packed full of tech. its a market that they can compete in day one ... and charge a premium globally.my question is, if you were the CEO, what would your strategy be? What would you make?
I've been thinking about this, and it's a tough one. I really dont know.
I would like to see them making cars that sold on performance. I mean the traditional Lotus fortes of lightweight, great handling, steering feel etc. but chuck in some firecracker powerplants, then that could be one hell of a USP.
However, whether they could find enough buyers and do it profitably, I havent a clue. Do they really need to add shagpile carpets, cupholders, and air-scarfs to tempt buyers? maybe they do.
Any business brains care to throw an idea or two out?
i said that on here 5 years ago and nearly got lynched by the 'all knowing' IT brigade lol.
in the meantime just get that v6 exige out so those of us with deposits can get to drive them before the winter...
Personally, and this is just where I'd like to see the brand go, I've no idea if it would work;
Move upmarket, as currently planned - entry level cars in the 35-40k area where they are still attainable for middle class professionals, but nothing cheaper than that.
Target Porsche, as currently planned.
Don't, however, go soft in order to compete with Porsche in the commuter-friendliness stakes. Porsche have that stitched up. Go the other way. Offer a quicker, lighter, rawer car for the same price. Offer Cayman R pace for 2.7 Boxster money, GT3 pace for Carrera money.
Don't style conservatively. Don't make the cars too big. Don't make them plush but do improve the perceived build quality. Make sure that they don't rattle or squeak or fall apart or develop blisters in the paintwork. Exposed alloy and carbon fibre is fine, there's no need to cover everything in prime cow hide but nor is there any need for materials which look and feel cheap. Keep the interior minimalist, but make it well.
Move upmarket, as currently planned - entry level cars in the 35-40k area where they are still attainable for middle class professionals, but nothing cheaper than that.
Target Porsche, as currently planned.
Don't, however, go soft in order to compete with Porsche in the commuter-friendliness stakes. Porsche have that stitched up. Go the other way. Offer a quicker, lighter, rawer car for the same price. Offer Cayman R pace for 2.7 Boxster money, GT3 pace for Carrera money.
Don't style conservatively. Don't make the cars too big. Don't make them plush but do improve the perceived build quality. Make sure that they don't rattle or squeak or fall apart or develop blisters in the paintwork. Exposed alloy and carbon fibre is fine, there's no need to cover everything in prime cow hide but nor is there any need for materials which look and feel cheap. Keep the interior minimalist, but make it well.
My view is this:
Lotus can't compete with brands like Porsche, Ferrari, mclaren etc on a level playing field toe to toe.
I love lotus but they sims don't have a strong enough brand to do it.
So in this case spread the net wide:
1) cheap 20k or less mx5 rival in the spirit of the original elan. Front engined, rwd, light and fun. Give it a small naughty revvy engine and that's it. Make it great to look at and leave it at that. A great way to get the brand into the mainstream.
2) keep the Elise. It strip it back to make it as raw as possible. Oh and under 30k
3) evora is a fine car that suffered bad marketing and perception. I'd probably bin the na and drop the price of the S to the NA levels. Oh, and make everything work properly
4) exige v6 - lots of potential there so keep as is (maybe less interior stuff). Perhaps an 'RS' version with minimum of stuff (bring back manual windows)
5) esprit launched against the Audi r8 - to me it's a sensible target (v8, mid mounted) that's priced about right. Like the esprit, the r8 had to break into the market and it got there on its own merits. Once settled there's always room for an esprit R or RS with more power, looks and price.
Lotus can't compete with brands like Porsche, Ferrari, mclaren etc on a level playing field toe to toe.
I love lotus but they sims don't have a strong enough brand to do it.
So in this case spread the net wide:
1) cheap 20k or less mx5 rival in the spirit of the original elan. Front engined, rwd, light and fun. Give it a small naughty revvy engine and that's it. Make it great to look at and leave it at that. A great way to get the brand into the mainstream.
2) keep the Elise. It strip it back to make it as raw as possible. Oh and under 30k
3) evora is a fine car that suffered bad marketing and perception. I'd probably bin the na and drop the price of the S to the NA levels. Oh, and make everything work properly
4) exige v6 - lots of potential there so keep as is (maybe less interior stuff). Perhaps an 'RS' version with minimum of stuff (bring back manual windows
)5) esprit launched against the Audi r8 - to me it's a sensible target (v8, mid mounted) that's priced about right. Like the esprit, the r8 had to break into the market and it got there on its own merits. Once settled there's always room for an esprit R or RS with more power, looks and price.
otolith said:
Personally, and this is just where I'd like to see the brand go, I've no idea if it would work;
Move upmarket, as currently planned - entry level cars in the 35-40k area where they are still attainable for middle class professionals, but nothing cheaper than that.
Target Porsche, as currently planned.
Don't, however, go soft in order to compete with Porsche in the commuter-friendliness stakes. Porsche have that stitched up. Go the other way. Offer a quicker, lighter, rawer car for the same price. Offer Cayman R pace for 2.7 Boxster money, GT3 pace for Carrera money.
Don't style conservatively. Don't make the cars too big. Don't make them plush but do improve the perceived build quality. Make sure that they don't rattle or squeak or fall apart or develop blisters in the paintwork. Exposed alloy and carbon fibre is fine, there's no need to cover everything in prime cow hide but nor is there any need for materials which look and feel cheap. Keep the interior minimalist, but make it well.
Otolith, I think this is probably very close to my view tbh. One thing I'd add is that the thing that most people comment on about my Elise, and also puts most people off, is the act of getting in and out of the thing. The Evora is much better. Porsches are mostly very easy in this regard. Move upmarket, as currently planned - entry level cars in the 35-40k area where they are still attainable for middle class professionals, but nothing cheaper than that.
Target Porsche, as currently planned.
Don't, however, go soft in order to compete with Porsche in the commuter-friendliness stakes. Porsche have that stitched up. Go the other way. Offer a quicker, lighter, rawer car for the same price. Offer Cayman R pace for 2.7 Boxster money, GT3 pace for Carrera money.
Don't style conservatively. Don't make the cars too big. Don't make them plush but do improve the perceived build quality. Make sure that they don't rattle or squeak or fall apart or develop blisters in the paintwork. Exposed alloy and carbon fibre is fine, there's no need to cover everything in prime cow hide but nor is there any need for materials which look and feel cheap. Keep the interior minimalist, but make it well.
This might be the result of sleep deprivation, but this is what I would do:
- review the BRIC market, if this can still be manipulated to believe that Lotus is a worthy adversary for Porsche then promote the Evora like there's no tomorrow;
- accept that in much of Europe, and the UK in particular, the brand will never be perceived as upmarket enough to shift expensive cars by the container-load;
- look at whether the Elise can be sold as a kit in the markets where the brand will not surport the prestige cars - this would have the advantages of shifting more units (lower price point would mean that people bought base model and upgrade later, as they do with sevens) and also give people in the second-hand market the confidence that they can fix the car because they can buy an instruction manual on how to assemble it with each part nicely labelled and for sale individually. This would cement the residuals and give people more confidence to buy them new;
- also continue to sell built cars (obviously);
- exige race series, preferably run parallel to another series such as Britcar - people who are simply 'well off' are unlikely to want to go the whole hog with series' like the Porsche GT3, which is why these series now offer part entry programmes;
- Junk the fancy office. In fact, junk it first. Along with Swizzle Stick and that naff styling house and whatever else they've done.
I think that's it, now I'm off to catch up on my zeds, and probably see sense.
- review the BRIC market, if this can still be manipulated to believe that Lotus is a worthy adversary for Porsche then promote the Evora like there's no tomorrow;
- accept that in much of Europe, and the UK in particular, the brand will never be perceived as upmarket enough to shift expensive cars by the container-load;
- look at whether the Elise can be sold as a kit in the markets where the brand will not surport the prestige cars - this would have the advantages of shifting more units (lower price point would mean that people bought base model and upgrade later, as they do with sevens) and also give people in the second-hand market the confidence that they can fix the car because they can buy an instruction manual on how to assemble it with each part nicely labelled and for sale individually. This would cement the residuals and give people more confidence to buy them new;
- also continue to sell built cars (obviously);
- exige race series, preferably run parallel to another series such as Britcar - people who are simply 'well off' are unlikely to want to go the whole hog with series' like the Porsche GT3, which is why these series now offer part entry programmes;
- Junk the fancy office. In fact, junk it first. Along with Swizzle Stick and that naff styling house and whatever else they've done.
I think that's it, now I'm off to catch up on my zeds, and probably see sense.
It surprises me that I'm saying this, but I think that Lotus should pin all their hopes on one model, the Elise/Exige. Porsche have made the 911 their bread and butter car. Ok, they now need to expand, and they used off-shoots to do it, but that was the foundation for their success.
I also think that Lotus should accept that they are a shed outfit. £100k+ for a Lotus?!! They shouldn't sell cars for much more than a top range Ford/VX.
They left the Elise to sit for far too long. The S2 Elise was the last real development, and for a 16 year old car, that's just not enough.
I look at Wiesmann, and they are a company who bases all their products on one recipe which, I think, works brilliantly. Why pick a fight with not only Porsche, but also Aston and Ferrari at the same time? It's like the 9 stone guy getting drunk and picking a fight with the three biggest guys in the pub.
Diversion can be a wonderful thing if you have a sugardaddy, or you are completely confident that you see some sort of logical expansion to your current product, but putting all your eggs into something that is clearly outside your comfort zone, and expecting the public to blindly follow you, is just stupid.
So, an Elise/Exige update with the possible addition of one 2 seater costing less that £40k would how I'd have done it. I would also consider using something slightly heavier for the outrunners of the chassis so that access into the Elise/Exige isn't so ridiculous.
I admit that my vision wouldn't compete with the European big-boys, but I suspect that it might be far more successful in it's own right, much like Morgan/Wiesmann are now.
I also think that Lotus should accept that they are a shed outfit. £100k+ for a Lotus?!! They shouldn't sell cars for much more than a top range Ford/VX.
They left the Elise to sit for far too long. The S2 Elise was the last real development, and for a 16 year old car, that's just not enough.
I look at Wiesmann, and they are a company who bases all their products on one recipe which, I think, works brilliantly. Why pick a fight with not only Porsche, but also Aston and Ferrari at the same time? It's like the 9 stone guy getting drunk and picking a fight with the three biggest guys in the pub.
Diversion can be a wonderful thing if you have a sugardaddy, or you are completely confident that you see some sort of logical expansion to your current product, but putting all your eggs into something that is clearly outside your comfort zone, and expecting the public to blindly follow you, is just stupid.
So, an Elise/Exige update with the possible addition of one 2 seater costing less that £40k would how I'd have done it. I would also consider using something slightly heavier for the outrunners of the chassis so that access into the Elise/Exige isn't so ridiculous.
I admit that my vision wouldn't compete with the European big-boys, but I suspect that it might be far more successful in it's own right, much like Morgan/Wiesmann are now.
To me it's painfully obvious.
The biggest single reason the Elise isn't selling is because the base 134bhp engine is a backward step for most current owners. The recipe is genius but the ingredients need to be more mouth watering.
The new supercharged Elise is badly needed but that would be a starting point for me. Beyond that I'd offer customers that wanted it something more exotic too. The dream unit would be a small capacity, lightweight motorsports V6. 2.4 litres, 9000 revs, 300bhp. Yes it would need rebuilding more often than an off the shelf engine but I for one would happily put up with that. If I couldn't find one I'd give mountune a call. They offer Jag (Ford) 3.0 V6's with anything from standard 240bhp to 380bhp normally aspirated. For the Exige I'd offer their 3.4 litre version with 420bhp.
http://www.mountune.com/Racing/Engines/jaguarv6
That's what I'd do starting Monday.
Beyond that I'd develop 2 new models. A radical new Elise/Exige and a new Esprit. But my Esprit wouldn't be anything like the Bahar version. The world simply doesn't need another 458 clone. I would take the F40 as inspiration. A modern version is exaclty what Lotus could and should make. Forget dreaming about competing with porsche on build quality and technology, much like the F40 said screw you to the high tech path followed by the 959. Lotus need to say screw you to door thunk and go extreme lightweight. Aggressive styling. Carbon tub, carbon bodywork, target 1100kg, use the scintillating Lexus LF-A 550bhp V10. No power steering. Finally, it should showcase active suspension. I'd write a cheque for £150k for that tomorrow. Especially if it was otherworldy looking. No one would care what it smelt like, or what noise the door made, much like no-one cares that the F40 had exposed glue all over the place and used postman's trousers to cover the dash.
As for the radical new Elise I'd do whatever was necessary to reverse the trend towards weight gain, target sub 800kgs offer a range of powerplants and power upgrades. I'd also work with Tesla in developing an electric version and for styling I'd take inspriation from this:
actually screw inspiration, I'd put it into production. If it's a last roll of the dice I'd go out all guns blazing. Simply nothing to be gained by playing it safe. Time for Lotus to blow their conservative corporate, dumbed-down, focus group styled competition away.
The biggest single reason the Elise isn't selling is because the base 134bhp engine is a backward step for most current owners. The recipe is genius but the ingredients need to be more mouth watering.
The new supercharged Elise is badly needed but that would be a starting point for me. Beyond that I'd offer customers that wanted it something more exotic too. The dream unit would be a small capacity, lightweight motorsports V6. 2.4 litres, 9000 revs, 300bhp. Yes it would need rebuilding more often than an off the shelf engine but I for one would happily put up with that. If I couldn't find one I'd give mountune a call. They offer Jag (Ford) 3.0 V6's with anything from standard 240bhp to 380bhp normally aspirated. For the Exige I'd offer their 3.4 litre version with 420bhp.
http://www.mountune.com/Racing/Engines/jaguarv6
That's what I'd do starting Monday.
Beyond that I'd develop 2 new models. A radical new Elise/Exige and a new Esprit. But my Esprit wouldn't be anything like the Bahar version. The world simply doesn't need another 458 clone. I would take the F40 as inspiration. A modern version is exaclty what Lotus could and should make. Forget dreaming about competing with porsche on build quality and technology, much like the F40 said screw you to the high tech path followed by the 959. Lotus need to say screw you to door thunk and go extreme lightweight. Aggressive styling. Carbon tub, carbon bodywork, target 1100kg, use the scintillating Lexus LF-A 550bhp V10. No power steering. Finally, it should showcase active suspension. I'd write a cheque for £150k for that tomorrow. Especially if it was otherworldy looking. No one would care what it smelt like, or what noise the door made, much like no-one cares that the F40 had exposed glue all over the place and used postman's trousers to cover the dash.
As for the radical new Elise I'd do whatever was necessary to reverse the trend towards weight gain, target sub 800kgs offer a range of powerplants and power upgrades. I'd also work with Tesla in developing an electric version and for styling I'd take inspriation from this:
actually screw inspiration, I'd put it into production. If it's a last roll of the dice I'd go out all guns blazing. Simply nothing to be gained by playing it safe. Time for Lotus to blow their conservative corporate, dumbed-down, focus group styled competition away.
I think success for Lotus lies in the 'heritage' model as seen with Morgan and Caterham. I see no reason why the Elise cannot be developed ad infinitum simply because, like Morgan, it has no competitors.
Like the 911, they should be available for a vast range of prices.
I'd also launch the Esprit, developed from the Evora, as a halo model. However, the best solution IMO lies in two models - effectively entry and top - and an extremely diverse approach to spec and options along the lines of the BRZ/GT86.
Like the 911, they should be available for a vast range of prices.
I'd also launch the Esprit, developed from the Evora, as a halo model. However, the best solution IMO lies in two models - effectively entry and top - and an extremely diverse approach to spec and options along the lines of the BRZ/GT86.
Twincam16 said:
I think success for Lotus lies in the 'heritage' model as seen with Morgan and Caterham. I see no reason why the Elise cannot be developed ad infinitum simply because, like Morgan, it has no competitors.
Surely the whole basis of Lotus' 'heritage' lies in their reputation for innovation, though? Opinions are like ****holes - everyone has one. And... here's mine 
I don't think Lotus should 'know their place' and stick to a small range that sells in small numbers. That only works if you sell at ridiculous prices (the Morgan three wheeler starts at £30,000!) and have a product that is absolutely unique and in short supply. Sadly for the Elise, there are plenty of two seater roadsters, and it is it's own worst enemy - they last well and there are plenty of very good condition second hand Elises available at excellent prices.
Their engineering consultancy is immensely strong and they should be able to use that to produce class leading cars. They've got a platform architecture that is ideal for producing new models at very good cost. They need to put those together and produce cars that excite and challenge the incumbents.
And with that, I end up pretty much with the current strategy: use the VVA platform to build a series of class leading niche vehicles. From an outsider's perspective, I'm not sure if the Vehicle and Engineering groups work closely enough together - besides the chassis, the vehicles are relatively traditional. Whether they need to be traditional to sell, or should distinguish themselves by going for leading edge tech throughout (at added cost), I don't know. Having produced a number of concepts, including a city car I think they should just go ahead and make them in small runs - avoid SVA if possible but sell right to the limit to show off what they can do and gauge interest for a full product run.
I've no problem with their 'mainstream' cars being normal weights - they need to have the comfort of any other modern car and you can't do that in a stripped out track car. However, it should always be possible to buy a stripped out 'purist' version of a Lotus and know it is the real deal.
I don't think Lotus should 'know their place' and stick to a small range that sells in small numbers. That only works if you sell at ridiculous prices (the Morgan three wheeler starts at £30,000!) and have a product that is absolutely unique and in short supply. Sadly for the Elise, there are plenty of two seater roadsters, and it is it's own worst enemy - they last well and there are plenty of very good condition second hand Elises available at excellent prices.
Their engineering consultancy is immensely strong and they should be able to use that to produce class leading cars. They've got a platform architecture that is ideal for producing new models at very good cost. They need to put those together and produce cars that excite and challenge the incumbents.
And with that, I end up pretty much with the current strategy: use the VVA platform to build a series of class leading niche vehicles. From an outsider's perspective, I'm not sure if the Vehicle and Engineering groups work closely enough together - besides the chassis, the vehicles are relatively traditional. Whether they need to be traditional to sell, or should distinguish themselves by going for leading edge tech throughout (at added cost), I don't know. Having produced a number of concepts, including a city car I think they should just go ahead and make them in small runs - avoid SVA if possible but sell right to the limit to show off what they can do and gauge interest for a full product run.
I've no problem with their 'mainstream' cars being normal weights - they need to have the comfort of any other modern car and you can't do that in a stripped out track car. However, it should always be possible to buy a stripped out 'purist' version of a Lotus and know it is the real deal.
Sam_68 said:
Twincam16 said:
I think success for Lotus lies in the 'heritage' model as seen with Morgan and Caterham. I see no reason why the Elise cannot be developed ad infinitum simply because, like Morgan, it has no competitors.
Surely the whole basis of Lotus' 'heritage' lies in their reputation for innovation, though? To my mind there are two potential paths for Lotus to take. Either they continue to be owned by small car companies or investment cabals, and as such won't have the money to develop, so they can continue to innovate in their own way. Caterham, funnily enough, is a massively innovative company who manage to make one model competitive in whatever sphere it plays in, from affordable small sports car to supercar-challenging racer. Given that it's a possibility a future Lotus buyer might be Tony Fernandes, we may well see the Elise continue to be developed - the Exige V6 Roadster is proof positive that there's mileage in this. They can still innovate within that too, by making versions of the Elise and Exige that continue to evolve. Like I said, no-one seems to make anything like the Elise, but I feel they sell in Morgan/Caterham kinds of volume.
But alongside this, they should still develop and market the Esprit. Look at Morgan as an examplar - their bread-and-butter is the traditional roadster, but they can still turn out Aeromaxes and innovate with the LifeCar project.
The other alternative is for a major car company (ideally Toyota) to buy them out, including the engineering consultancy. OK, so we wouldn't get Lotus engineering on a multitude of ranges any more, but we would get a sound financial bedrock at long last, and permanent, ongoing, properly-developed successors to the Talbot Sunbeam-Lotus, Lotus-Cortina and Lotus Carlton as performance-orientated versions of whatever range Lotus ended up tweaking.
Tuna, which niche car manufacturer produces a range of cars with such diverse pricing as DB aspired to? A £34k Elise, a £75k Elan, £110k for an Esprit, then an Eterne, and some sort of city car. For an unproven market, that's quite a blunderbuss approach. It's like playing roulette, and trying to cover most of the table with chips.
I think one of their most successful cars has been the 340R. Produced in limited numbers, based on a current model, and sold out almost immediately. I see their success as variations of their core models, not going to try and pick new fights in a weight class that they have no experience in.
In fact, DB is the complete inverse of they type of person I think Lotus should have!
I think one of their most successful cars has been the 340R. Produced in limited numbers, based on a current model, and sold out almost immediately. I see their success as variations of their core models, not going to try and pick new fights in a weight class that they have no experience in.
In fact, DB is the complete inverse of they type of person I think Lotus should have!
MX7 said:
Tuna, which niche car manufacturer produces a range of cars with such diverse pricing as DB aspired to? A £34k Elise, a £75k Elan, £110k for an Esprit, then an Eterne, and some sort of city car. For an unproven market, that's quite a blunderbuss approach. It's like playing roulette, and trying to cover most of the table with chips.
I think one of their most successful cars has been the 340R. Produced in limited numbers, based on a current model, and sold out almost immediately. I see their success as variations of their core models, not going to try and pick new fights in a weight class that they have no experience in.
In fact, DB is the complete inverse of they type of person I think Lotus should have!
Exactly.I think one of their most successful cars has been the 340R. Produced in limited numbers, based on a current model, and sold out almost immediately. I see their success as variations of their core models, not going to try and pick new fights in a weight class that they have no experience in.
In fact, DB is the complete inverse of they type of person I think Lotus should have!
Evolve the Elise the way Caterham has evolved the Seven. At one end, you have basic Classics and Roadsports for under £20k, and at the other end you have carbon-bodied Superlights and CSRs for £30k-£45k aimed at racers and hardcore trackday enthusiasts looking to upset 911 GT2 owners for what looks like strong money but is actually half the price if that. Also, the Seven is a near-60-year-old design which still manages to look new, so the Elise/Exige can be developed in the same way. Approach development the same way Caterham does and sell it from £20k in its most basic form up to £45k in ready-to-race ultra-light 2-Eleven-style setup, with the Exige V6 coupe/roadster for £30k-£40k.
However, I do also think there's room for the Esprit. I think the Evora should 'evolve into' it, but ultimately for that kind of money (I think £65k-£120k is realistic), it needs that bespoke V8, which has been built and is production-ready. In fact the Esprit is pretty-much ready to go, they just need the OK from their parent company and the regional development loan from the government. Once it's ready, that could go head-to-head with the Gallardo, 458 and 911 in the way the original Esprit did.
Just two models, just two or three production lines, but infinitely variable models within that. In addition, keep up the racing programme to maintain international presence, and I think an entire range of family cars needs Lotus makeovers. Ally mass-produced quality with very prominent Lotus involvement - I'm talking cars capable of giving Vauxhall VXRs and even BMW Ms a kicking, but the telltale badge on the back will be the Lotus roundel a la Carlton.
MX7 said:
Tuna, which niche car manufacturer produces a range of cars with such diverse pricing as DB aspired to? A £34k Elise, a £75k Elan, £110k for an Esprit, then an Eterne, and some sort of city car. For an unproven market, that's quite a blunderbuss approach. It's like playing roulette, and trying to cover most of the table with chips.
I think one of their most successful cars has been the 340R. Produced in limited numbers, based on a current model, and sold out almost immediately. I see their success as variations of their core models, not going to try and pick new fights in a weight class that they have no experience in.
In fact, DB is the complete inverse of they type of person I think Lotus should have!
I was under the impression that the 340R was a bit of an embarrassment to Lotus - an experiment that went wrong. The point though is that Lotus should be able to carry out experiments. We shouldn't be demanding that they produce a single perfect car because frankly that'll never happen. Not because Lotus aren't capable of it, but because no manufacturer is able to produce an entirely new vehicle and know that it will be a long selling success.I think one of their most successful cars has been the 340R. Produced in limited numbers, based on a current model, and sold out almost immediately. I see their success as variations of their core models, not going to try and pick new fights in a weight class that they have no experience in.
In fact, DB is the complete inverse of they type of person I think Lotus should have!
More than just about any other manufacturer, Lotus should be able to build a car for a short production run at minimal cost. They've got the platform, the flexible manufacturing facility, the tools and the skills to make concept cars that can be put on the road in double quick time. So in that respect, why not produce a range of cars and find out what people actually want? Why not put out a halo model, a four door saloon, a city car, a track day special and so on - and then just treat them as 'special editions' if they don't sell? Porsche, Mazda and their competitors simply can't do that. They don't have the flexibility. Caterham, Ginetta and Morgan can't do it either because they don't have the engineering clout.
Lotus are possibly the only company in a position to produce a short run niche car that still has amazing dynamics, pretty good economy and doesn't cost the earth. Remember the original Elise was only expected to sell a few hundred cars. So why not hang the banner of amazing dynamics and Lotus quality over a series of cars and see what sticks? Why gamble everything on one or two models?
I don't understand why people seem to require every car that Lotus produce to be a timeless classic. The Europa S was a perfectly reasonable variation on the Elise platform, yet it was panned because it wasn't a unique new car. In retrospect, there's nothing wrong with it as yet another special edition. Yet at the time everyone was obsessing about that one single car being the 'future of Lotus'.
Edited by Tuna on Tuesday 17th April 13:34
Twincam16 said:
Evolve the Elise the way Caterham has evolved the Seven. At one end, you have basic Classics and Roadsports for under £20k, and at the other end you have carbon-bodied Superlights and CSRs for £30k-£45k aimed at racers and hardcore trackday enthusiasts looking to upset 911 GT2 owners for what looks like strong money but is actually half the price if that. Also, the Seven is a near-60-year-old design which still manages to look new, so the Elise/Exige can be developed in the same way. Approach development the same way Caterham does and sell it from £20k in its most basic form up to £45k in ready-to-race ultra-light 2-Eleven-style setup, with the Exige V6 coupe/roadster for £30k-£40k.
I've no idea how much the chassis and extensive bodywork contribute to the cost of the Elise, but I doubt it could ever be sold for 20K. Besides, the evolution you describe has already happened with the Elise - from the base model via the Exige and 211. You can get a cheap road car, a top spec vehicle and a track day special. And you know what? They've been selling in smaller and smaller numbers year on year. Caterham only manage a few hundred Sevens a year - that's not worth Group Lotus getting involved with. If they're only going to sell those numbers they might as well just close the vehicle arm down and get on with engineering consultancy which earns ten times as much as you'd ever get from a few hundred Elises.Tuna said:
I was under the impression that the 340R was a bit of an embarrassment to Lotus - an experiment that went wrong. The point though is that Lotus should be able to carry out experiments. We shouldn't be demanding that they produce a single perfect car because frankly that'll never happen. Not because Lotus aren't capable of it, but because no manufacturer is able to produce an entirely new vehicle and know that it will be a long selling success.
Was the 340 an embarrassment? I don't know how Lotus felt about it, but from the outside I thought it was a brave, slightly mad, and interesting development, very much from the Renault Sport Spider mould.Of course Lotus should be able to experiment, but the problem is that it shouldn't place the whole company in jeopardy if the experiment fails. You mentioned the Morgan 3-wheeler, which I think is a very interesting off-shoot, but if it failed, would it take Morgan down with it? I doubt it. They realised how much it would cost, and, I suspect, calculated that they could afford to take the hit if it bombed. I remember the John Harvey-Jones programme on Morgan, and since them they have built on a very small range of cars quite successfully, which means that they now have the ability to experiment without sinking the ship.
I don't think Lotus are doing the same. I think that they are gambling, not experimenting.
Tuna said:
More than just about any other manufacturer, Lotus should be able to build a car for a short production run at minimal cost. They've got the platform, the flexible manufacturing facility, the tools and the skills to make concept cars that can be put on the road in double quick time. So in that respect, why not produce a range of cars and find out what people actually want? Why not put out a halo model, a four door saloon, a city car, a track day special and so on - and then just treat them as 'special editions' if they don't sell? Porsche, Mazda and their competitors simply can't do that. They don't have the flexibility. Caterham, Ginetta and Morgan can't do it either because they don't have the engineering clout.
I think that the last few years pays testament to why it's the wrong way to go. Even with a large backer, it's a very difficult thing to do, and you are massively extended if you try. Tuna said:
Lotus are possibly the only company in a position to produce a short run niche car that still has amazing dynamics, pretty good economy and doesn't cost the earth. Remember the original Elise was only expected to sell a few hundred cars. So why not hang the banner of amazing dynamics and Lotus quality over a series of cars and see what sticks? Why gamble everything on one or two models?
I think that's how all niche manufacturers do it. Ginetta, Noble, Weismann, and once you've found your foundation, you can dip your toes into a new pool. I know that we won't agree, but I think that having a good seller or two is the safest base for any new developments.
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