I don't get it - Excel

[crankedup]

Never had the pleasure of Lotus ownership despite my interest in the marque for way to many years. I almost took the plunge years back and test drove the Excel SE, they were still in production and I test drove a used example. I was mighty impressed by the drive but failed to follow up with the purchase at that time. Maybe one day I will take the plunge but at the moment my fun car is vintage. What puzzles me though is this, why is the Excel so seemingly underrated and thus relatively low priced, its a great car.

[Sam_68]

Its a front engined, 4-seater with a roof. It therefore isn't considered to be particuarly glamorous.

It's also an old Lotus, and no matter how partisan you may be about the marque, or how many arguments you make about Toyota components (yes, the gearbox might be bulletproof, but the engine and electrics are still subject to Norfolk's finest quality control), that means it's unlikely to be a completely worry-free ownership prospect.

Considering that you can get a Porsche 944 for similar money, I don;t necessarily think that it's undervalued, to be honest.

[Oilchange]

The engines are pretty reliable, my 910 has 115,000 miles on it and pulls like a train

[marshalla]

Oilchange said:

The engines are pretty reliable, my 910 has 115,000 miles on it and pulls like a train

Agreed - my 912 only got a rebuild at 125k because the factory were selling pistons and liners for peanuts on ebay. When we pulled the old liners out there was just the faintest hint of a lip at the top.

Still running it as a daily driver, averaging 12k miles a year and with only 163 apparently registered for road use in the UK at the moment that ought to be a very silly thing to do - but it still keeps up/ahead of most traffic, is still the most comfortable car I've ever driven and still goes round corners like only a Lotus can. The major electrical issues tend to be relay related because of bad positioning, but that's easy enough to keep in check and it only takes a few seconds to swap a bad one if it has to be done. It just becomes part of the preventative maintenance to check the condition of them periodically.

Edited by marshalla on Monday 4th July 08:47

[Hi RX7]

I ran an Excel for about seven years, never let me down, very comfortable and cornered very well a very underated car which is actually practical for a Lotus. Bargain basement prices too.

[Sam_68]

Oilchange said:

The engines are pretty reliable, my 910 has 115,000 miles on it and pulls like a train

So about half the mileage most people would expect from a Porsche 944 engine, so far, then?

But the problem with the 900 series is inconsistency... you get good ones, and you get bad ones. A good one may last 150K before needing a rebuild. A bad one may need a rebuild at 50K. The general rule of thumb for spotting a good one is supposedly noisy when cold/quiet when hot = good, quite when cold/noisy when hot = bad.

[Oilchange]

So the average mileage of a 944 of 1994 vintage is 230,000? I would like to meet all those owners with that kind of mileage on their Porsches... I bet there are hundreds.
Also, the 910 is the last iteration of the Lotus twincam and is a very reliable lump. You also have to bear in mind what kind of life they would have had considering they often get thrashed and have around 125 bhp/litre, more on the S300, even more on the chipped, modded cars. They go like rockets and its only a small engine so they are going to need more tlc.

[Oilchange]

So the average mileage of a 944 of 1994 vintage is 230,000? I would like to meet all those owners with that kind of mileage on their Porsches... I bet there are hundreds.
Also, the 910 is the last iteration of the Lotus twincam and is a very reliable lump. You also have to bear in mind what kind of life they would have had considering they often get thrashed and have around 125 bhp/litre, more on the S300, even more on the chipped, modded cars. They go like rockets and its only a small engine so they are going to need more tlc.

[marshalla]

but the 910 was never used in the Excel - which is what this thread started off discussing...

[Sam_68]

Oilchange said:

So the average mileage of a 944 of 1994 vintage is 230,000?

Not at all, but the Porsche engines are generally regarded as being capable of mileage in excess of 200K before needing a major rebuild.

The Lotus 900-series engines are generally regarded as being lucky not to need a rebuild by 125K miles or so, but my orignal point, which I reiterated, wasn't about ultimate longevity (though I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has done 200K+ on a 900 Series without a rebuild, but about inconsistency.

As I said, it's generally acknowledged (by the specialists) that you get 'good ones' and 'bad ones' and beyond the general rule of thumb about how noisy the unit is, it's difficult to know which you're buying when you look at a second-hand Lotus.

It's a gamble, and most people want to limit their financial exposure when taking gambles.

[marshalla]

Sam_68 said:

(though I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has done 200K+ on a 900 Series without a rebuild,

You'll be needing to talk to Mike Causer then.

[Sam_68]

Yes, I'm aquainted with Mike Causer. I know that he's done the best part of a quarter of a million miles in an Excel, but I wasn't aware that he'd managed it without an engine rebuild.

I can introduce you to lots of owners who've needed their 900-series engines rebuilt at <75K miles, mind you, but you can see that for yourself by simply scanning the classifieds.

One Cambridgeshire swallow does not a summer make...

[marshalla]

Sam_68 said:

One Cambridgeshire swallow does not a summer make...

Agreed.

However, I'm not convinced that the 912 is inherently fragile - I think there is a general lack of maintenance issue caused by the fact that the cars are underpriced.

New owners buy them as a cheap way into Lotus ownership and them fail to maintain them the way they should be (I despair at the number of people who think it is acceptable to use something like Mobil-1 in a 912 engine), which results in damage. It's a perfectly good oil, but the engine design pre-dates it by a long way and the tolerances in the 912 do not lend themselves to thin fully-synthetics in the way that modern engines do.

Of course the old "built on a Vauxhall block" myth doesn't help either - too many back-street bodgers over the years.

As I said earlier, mine got a rebuild at 125k not because it needed, but because the parts were cheap at the time. I'm satisfied that it would have carried on for many more miles without incident. I still have the old pistons and liners sitting around for reference (and because I'm a hoarder of course).

[Sam_68]

marshalla said:

...I'm not convinced that the 912 is inherently fragile...

...Of course the old "built on a Vauxhall block" myth doesn't help either.

Ironically, the 900-series' biggest inherent problem is that it wasn't built on the Vauxhall block. The Lotus aluminium block has always lacked stiffness, and despite the fact they beefed it up progressively over the generations, I think that this remained one of the fundamental issues in terms of longevity.

Perhaps if they'd stuck with the LV's cast iron Vauxhall block...?

[Oilchange]

Then it would have weighed too much and for up to 300 hp it' s fine

[Sam_68]

Oilchange said:

...for up to 300 hp it' s fine

For a given value of 'fine', no doubt.

Prompted by this thread, I had a quick look in the PistonHeads classifieds to see what was currently available on the Excel market.

Admittedly a small sample, but it's interesting to note that 2 of the 6 cars available are listed as having had engine rebuilds (and the current mileage of those two is given as 39K and 66K).

There are several pages of Porsche 944's for sale (many much cheaper than the Lotuses), so I'm not about to wade into a statistical analysis, but I'd be surprised if you found that 33% of them had required engine rebuilds before they reached 6-figure mileage.

I'd say that given the balance of performance, reliability, exclusivity and prestige, the Excel market has probably found its own level?

[Tuna]

Definitely underrated and definitely a great car to own. Lotus themselves speak of the Excel as the 'most reliable' model they produced and the bottom line is that it is a Lotus through and through - a complete pleasure to drive. Get a late celebration model and you get air-con, full leather and all the bells and whistles that make it a good place to be for a long journey.

It seems to me it gets overlooked because it's a fairly conventional four-seater, engine in the front car. If that's what you're after there are a lot of choices - everything from hot saloons to the Fiat Coupe. At the time Lotus were known for only one model, and the Excel wasn't it, so it doesn't get the cool/nostalgia vote either.

Sam_68 said:

For a given value of 'fine', no doubt.

Given that the Excel is tuned to 120bhp less than the 300bhp ceiling figure mentioned, the engine in the Excel is pretty unstressed.

Sam_68 said:

Prompted by this thread, I had a quick look in the PistonHeads classifieds to see what was currently available on the Excel market.

Admittedly a small sample, but it's interesting to note that 2 of the 6 cars available are listed as having had engine rebuilds (and the current mileage of those two is given as 39K and 66K).

The impression I get is that most owners tend to keep hold of theirs, so the few you see in the classified are far too few a sample to draw any conclusions from.

Certainly a low mileage and an engine rebuild can go hand in hand - regular, sensible use suits cars of that age. That said, mine had only done mid-sixties, sailed through inspections and pulled like a train. Note the use of the past tense - rats ate the electrics and I've had to write the car off as uneconomic to repair! I'm gutted.

Sam_68 said:

There are several pages of Porsche 944's for sale (many much cheaper than the Lotuses), so I'm not about to wade into a statistical analysis, but I'd be surprised if you found that 33% of them had required engine rebuilds before they reached 6-figure mileage.

I'd say that given the balance of performance, reliability, exclusivity and prestige, the Excel market has probably found its own level?

Or there's a bargain to be had? An Esprit with the same engine is twice the price or more, so I'd suggest that the mechanics aren't the cause of the low prices.

Regardless, with any car of that age, it's more about individual condition rather than broad brush assumptions about reliability. Compared with a modern car, they're a rather specialist taste anyway, so it's best to sit in one and see how you think you'd get on with it. I wouldn't even consider a 944, but that's just my personal preference of the sort of car I want to own.

[Sam_68]

Tuna said:

Sam_68 said:

For a given value of 'fine', no doubt.

Given that the Excel is tuned to 120bhp less than the 300bhp ceiling figure mentioned, the engine in the Excel is pretty unstressed.

And given that quite a number find themselves requiring an engine rebuild before 100K miles despite being so 'unstressed'?

Tuna said:

The impression I get is that most owners tend to keep hold of theirs, so the few you see in the classified are far too few a sample to draw any conclusions from.

Agreed - I pointed that out myself - but it tallies with my knowledge of the 900-series engine generally. As I mentioned above, the generally accepted rule is noisy when cold = good, noisy when hot = bad; it's a matter of tolerances and there are as many bad ones as good ones. Specialists seem to accept that mileages over 125K miles without a major rebuild are the exception rather than the rule, and many require rebuilding well before this figure.

Tuna said:

Or there's a bargain to be had? An Esprit with the same engine is twice the price or more, so I'd suggest that the mechanics aren't the cause of the low prices.

Regardless, with any car of that age, it's more about individual condition rather than broad brush assumptions about reliability. Compared with a modern car, they're a rather specialist taste anyway, so it's best to sit in one and see how you think you'd get on with it. I wouldn't even consider a 944, but that's just my personal preference of the sort of car I want to own.

I wouldn't consider a 944 either - I'm simply not a Porsche man - and I pointed out in my first response to this thread the simple fact that 4-seaters are frequently woorth considerably less than their 2-seater stablemates because they lack the 'glamour' (even without the Esprit's Hollywood connections!). But I think we're being delusional if we try to attach a 'value' to the Excel without taking account of the competition. I used the 944 because it is perhaps the most direct competitor from period and it has a badge that carries similar kudos for most people, but there are a vast array of 2+2 coupes or even performance saloons that can be had for the Excel's money or less, many of which are considerably quicker and more reliable.

I remain convinced that the Excel has found its level, and that level includes a premium for badge prestige and exclusivity. If it had been a Nissan or MG, you'd be picking them up for a few hundred quid by now. Take the badge away, and its simply not that good a car.

Edited by Sam_68 on Tuesday 12th July 08:22

[Tuna]

Don't get me wrong, I agree completely that the Excel has found its level - it is what it is. Given the age it came from, I don't think the Lotus name does much for the price at all - it's just a good car, though quite a different ownership proposition from more mainstream offerings.