ADR/Australia lags behind in Child Safety...

[robm3]

Just found out that ISOFIX isn't ratified for Australian use and Australia is still using the webbing and anchor point system!

I'm so surprised at this as ISOFIX is brilliant and clearly heads and tails above the old 'wobbly' tether system.

Well scr$w lame Aussie Laws, when my two cars go into the Container to come back home the bloody ISOFIX seats are going in as well. I'm happy to pay the stupid fine I'll no doubt receive from some overzealous Mad Max wannabe for the safety of my children!

I'm just so shocked that a country that used to lead the way in safety is lagging so far behind....

[ukdennis]

I agree with your sentiments, but you will probably have to have the anchor points for the upper child seat tethers installed (one for each rear seat position to comply with relevant ADR's) in your cars anyway, before presenting them for inspection to get licenced. Even if you don't intend to use the the tethers. I know they check for this prior to first registration in WA, don't know for sure about other states.

It really pi$$ed me off having to get this done for a DB7 Vantage a year or two ago (virtually all of the rear leather trim needed to be removed and re-installed, plus some fabrication work done) and am in the process of going through what is hopefully a slightly less painful process for an Audi A8 and a BMW 740i before shipping them to Oz. You'd think that the manufacturers would have the anchor points installed at the factory for all their cars (the US market requires the tether anchors too), since it only involves a threaded hole in the metal structure beneath the rear parcel shelf accessible via a blanking plug in the parcel shelf).

[robm3]

Yep, it's rubbish Dennis.
So frustrating as the Tether and Webbing design is so inferior to ISOFIX. Can't understand why they haven't updated their rules.

Do you really need the high mounted anchor points though?
I think this is old legislation and now the ISOFIX points can double as the Tether points (or so I thought by reading up on it online last night), could be wrong though.

[ukdennis]

Hi Robin,

The applicable ADR is 34/01 ... here's the link so you can download it.

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/Legisl...

As I interpret it, sedans must have the anchor point for the tether strap (attached to the top of the child seat) in the centre line of each rear seat position, behind the child seat. This effectively means they must be mounted on the pressed metal structure beneath the rear parcel shelf. Wagons (like your Disco) can have the anchor points mounted in the floor of the rear cargo area, since there is no parcel shelf. As I understand it, the only ISOFIX anchor points are located in the join between the rear seat and the seat back, which won't work for the upper tether.

[Jader1973]

I read that we don't get the new Honda Accord wagon here for this reason. Apparently would cost too much to re-engineer to remove the ISOFIX.

I have a 7 month old, and the child seat security when it is rearward facing is a joke - the bloody thing rotates - the tether acts as a pivot. I dread to think how it would react in a side impact.

Mind you, if Aus adopted ISOFIX then how would they protect the local childseat manufacturers from cheap imports.

[PomBstard]

Jader1973 said:

I read that we don't get the new Honda Accord wagon here for this reason. Apparently would cost too much to re-engineer to remove the ISOFIX.

I have a 7 month old, and the child seat security when it is rearward facing is a joke - the bloody thing rotates - the tether acts as a pivot. I dread to think how it would react in a side impact.

Mind you, if Aus adopted ISOFIX then how would they protect the local childseat manufacturers from cheap imports.

Doubt if that's why we don't get the Accord - all Subarus have Isofix points, including the 07 Forester I've got, as well as hooks for tethers. As the baby seat we've got is Isofix compatible, I'm going to try to get some Isofix bars and use them, as well as the tethers. Therefore, complying with Aus legislation, but also using the most up-to-date safety features.


I've seen info about why ADR doesn't approve Isofix - will see if I can find it again.

http://www.rsconference.com/pdf/RS040079.pdf?check...

http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2004/wp29grsp/TRANS...

Edited cos I found a couple of papers on this...

Edited by PomBstard on Wednesday 9th September 12:57

[thehawk]

Nice Daily Mail headline you've created for the thread title.

You'll probably find the majority of parents still use non-isofix in the UK or Europe, in addition the extra safety is debatable, where it does provide a big benefit is that parents don't often affix the traditional seats properly.

[robm3]

thehawk said:

Nice Daily Mail headline you've created for the thread title.

I don't read the Daily Mail so not sure what you're trying to infere however in reference to Australia lagging behind I stand by the title of the thread being;
By not validating an option that is available in EMEA and USA then they (ADR board of members) are behind everyone else. Are you aware of the lobby in Australia that is trying to get this option passed?

thehawk said:

You'll probably find the majority of parents still use non-isofix in the UK or Europe

So? What are you trying to say? These people still have the option to use Isofix if they really want the best right?
My point is the Australian's don't.

Let me refer to an interesting fact though;

Two Thirds of non-Isofix seats are fitted incorrectly!

Please read here: http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/child_safety/...

thehawk said:

in addition the extra safety is debatable where it does provide a big benefit is that parents don't often affix the traditional seats properly.

So let me debate then.
The Isofix system primarily has always been shown as safer due to simplier fitting systems however it has extra benefits being that the mounting frame within the child seat (steel-usually at the base) connects directly to the steel mounting points in the car which in turn are welded to the chassis runners.
Two main advantages here:
1. In Side Impact the traditional car seat using webbing restraint based system (Seatbelt) has far less resistance to perpendicular movement. Isofix steel base's resistance is far higher.
2. By having a far simplier connection system with no textile/webbing component there is less likelyhood of slippage or failure during an impact. Consider that a normal 'decent' seatbelt system will mount across and down for one part and around the base for another, better systems have a locking device, usually springloaded, that retains tension in the webbing. However the extra risk occurs as webbing can slip in these tensioners, the angle of the belt could cause the pawl recoil system in the seatbelt retractor in the to fail (granted not likely but still a risk and higher if angle is out of the ordinary such as when restraining child seats) and the mounting points for the seatbelt retractor are less favourable, generally being on the C pillar as opposed to the lower chassis crossmember.

So therefore my comment still stands. By not validating a system that is in my opinion, and industry expert opinion, an improvement, then Australia/ADR lags behind.

Robin.

PS. The tether system that ADR does require could also be improved by the insertion of a lanyard shock pack, by having straight webbing material, any slack could cause shocks through the seat should the primary webbing fail.

[robm3]

thehawk said:

in addition the extra safety is debatable, where it does provide a big benefit is that parents don't often affix the traditional seats properly.

Here's a side impact at only 15kph!

First the standard Seatbelt system (fitted correctly too, imagine if it wasn't, just like 75% of all seats out there):





Please note where the child's head is on the return!!


Now same with Isofix:






Hawk, you can 'debate' all you want but me, as a father of a two year old and four year old, I have made sure all my cars have Isofix seats to ensure my childrens safety.
I'm frustrated that when I get to Australia my choice is restricted and I'll have to downgrade my children to a lesser design!
(I'm not though, I'll use my Isofix seats and run the risk of a fine).

[deviant]

I dont think you will really risk a fine, although the ISOFIX is not an approved method of restraint I think you will find most cars here have the isofix system in them anyway and I dont think child seats sold here are likely to be an Aus specific build that wont work with isofix.

I believe that child seat laws have changed here recently, mum in law had to have a go at bro in law and his wife about their 3.5 year old being in a booster seat when the laws in WA state she should be in a proper seat with a harness for a while yet. Might be worth checking on the exact laws as to what hey are supposed to be sat in.

[Ozzie Dave]

Spoke to someone about this last week, said ISOFIX MAY come in in about 5 Years time!, All I wanted was an ISOFIX chair to fit into a people mover, to take a large child- what a joke. It seems such a better system. Here they have to add the bolt holes to the car for webbing even if it has ISOFIX to be legal!

[robm3]

Ozzie Dave said:

Spoke to someone about this last week, said ISOFIX MAY come in in about 5 Years time!, All I wanted was an ISOFIX chair to fit into a people mover, to take a large child- what a joke. It seems such a better system. Here they have to add the bolt holes to the car for webbing even if it has ISOFIX to be legal!

It is a complete joke!
What is the real reason for not validating it I wonder?

Perhaps it stems back to protectionism for the local car market e.g. all imports need to be modified, causing more cost and therefore less competitiveness with local product??

Just don't know but really really frustrated about it especially as ADR is meant to be the best in the world!

[ukdennis]

Crazy isn't it? The upper tether strap is required (ADR) to make up for the deficiency in performance compared to Isofix. This in relation to the deflection of the upper part of the child seat in a side impact - as well illustrated in the photos above.

[robm3]

ukdennis said:

Crazy isn't it? The upper tether strap is required (ADR) to make up for the deficiency in performance compared to Isofix. This in relation to the deflection of the upper part of the child seat in a side impact - as well illustrated in the photos above.

Off Topic but hey, you've been in the UK/Europe same length of time as me. Getting homesick?
I am hence heading back next year.

[ukdennis]

robm3 said:

ukdennis said:

Crazy isn't it? The upper tether strap is required (ADR) to make up for the deficiency in performance compared to Isofix. This in relation to the deflection of the upper part of the child seat in a side impact - as well illustrated in the photos above.

Off Topic but hey, you've been in the UK/Europe same length of time as me. Getting homesick?
I am hence heading back next year.

Yup. That, and better work prospects in WA than in the UK for quite some time to come I suspect. Leaving here in a few days and bringing two cars back with me (one's the missus's).

[tim the pool man]

ukdennis said:

Yup. That, and better work prospects in WA than in the UK for quite some time to come I suspect. Leaving here in a few days and bringing two cars back with me (one's the missus's).

Which part oftown you heading for Dennis?prob abit further West than me )

[ukdennis]

tim the pool man said:

ukdennis said:

Yup. That, and better work prospects in WA than in the UK for quite some time to come I suspect. Leaving here in a few days and bringing two cars back with me (one's the missus's).

Which part oftown you heading for Dennis?prob abit further West than me )

Mt Claremont temporarily, but we'll no doubt end up around Subi where we used to live many moons ago. It'll be quite a culture shock, having lived in an English village these past 9 years. I'm going to miss the pubs, and the roads ..... which aren't yet plagued by mobile speed traps as they are in WA.

[uncinqsix]

robm3 said:

It is a complete joke!
What is the real reason for not validating it I wonder?

I can actually tell you that. From memory, it was going to be included at the last revison of the AS/NZS (joint Au/NZ) Child Restraint standard, but the Australians had some reservations about how the ISOfix seats performed in some types of crashes (and I think something to do with the location of tether anchorages as well) so they wanted to do more testing before they allowed it. In the meantime, all references to ISOfix were removed from the draft standard.

I was the NZ representative on that standards committee at the time. I did oppose the removal of the ISOfix provisions, but ended up getting outvoted by the Australians. We didn't push the issue too much because NZ accepts the Euro standard as well, so ISOfix seats are completely legal here regardless of what the AS/NZS standard says.

Edited by uncinqsix on Sunday 1st November 22:39

[lenats31]

robm3 said:

Just found out that ISOFIX isn't ratified for Australian use and Australia is still using the webbing and anchor point system!

I'm so surprised at this as ISOFIX is brilliant and clearly heads and tails above the old 'wobbly' tether system.

Well scr$w lame Aussie Laws, when my two cars go into the Container to come back home the bloody ISOFIX seats are going in as well. I'm happy to pay the stupid fine I'll no doubt receive from some overzealous Mad Max wannabe for the safety of my children!

I'm just so shocked that a country that used to lead the way in safety is lagging so far behind....

Don´t dispair. They are still giving implementation of the Iofix system serious thoughts. There was a meeting on 30 August this year. I don´t know what the outcome was.

[boobles]

Please also remember that just because you're car may have "isofix brackets" to attach the seat to, it doesn't mean that the brackets have been approved or tested in anyway, there for could be unsafe. Australian standards are completely different to the UK & they test their seats & check for any damage to the product, they don't measure accelerations within the dummy.


Just realized how old this thread is.

Edited by boobles on Monday 13th December 07:37